Portable piano and studio monitors

[ferron123]

Hi everyone.

I have a few questions concerning my portable piano. Its a p255, and I think the sound from the built in speaker sucks. Its great in my headphones though.

Would plugging it to studio monitors make the sound better ? ( i dont want it much louder, only better)

 Probably the dumbest question in the world : Would I need 2 monitors or 1?

I was suggested KRK riokit 8. Dunno if its good. 

I was told speakers would be useless in my case since I play in my small room.

Thanks a lot, im pretty much a newbie in all this audio stuff.

Mathieu

[dcstudio]

no...

unless your onboards are blown or fuzzy.   Monitors are only going to make it louder and amplify the squeaky sound that's driving you crazy.   Yamaha has internal effects--mess with the settings a bit.
http://www.manualslib.com/manual/716535/Yamaha-P-255.html

a link to your owner's manual...

read it

[ferron123]

I don't have the user manual. Thank you.


Is there a way to make it sound like it sounds in my headphones?

[dcstudio]

no...   it will never sound as awesome through the system as it does going directly into your head...     It's really disappointing I know...  not without really shelling out some bucks anyway.

using an amplifier helps--but still...  the acoustic piano sound just doesn't transfer well ...  an alternative is the electric piano sound---which does amplify well and is meant to be run through a set of speakers.  It doesn't work for classical though...

read your manual... 

[ferron123]

Then whats the point in having AUX out if the sound is going to be "fake" anyway ? I thought digital pianos were better used with sound systems.

Are you sure about what you're telling me ? I've been told the exact opposite like an hour ago.

And I don't have the manual.

Thank you

[indianajo]

Good you have discerning ears.  
See this thread: http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58809.0
 which was right on top when you first posted.  
I have a Peavey CS800s amplifier, two Peavey SP2-XT speakers, and importantly, a 10 ga speaker to amplifier cable, to get decent piano sound from line level inputs.  I use a CD player for the line level input, not a toy piano.
This equipment cost about $1000 used, plus $70 to go get it two counties away.  New at the store SP2 speakers were $600 each and the CS600s they had was $999. the bulk 3SO-10 cable  is $30 the four switchcraft 1/4 phone connectors $6 each.   I have a 14' X 10' X 30' room with plaster walls, acoustic tile ceiling, carpet, bookshelves and overstuffed furniture, to give the sound the proper ambience.
Studio monitor is a meaningless phrase applied to certain speakers.  Some sound good, some are ****.  I think it is useless to buy any speaker with less than a 15" driver to reproduce piano sound. Most studio monitors are smaller than that.   Low distortion is also required, the SP2 comes with a distortion spec of 2nd harmonic 25 db down  at 1 W 1 m,  but few manufactures are willing to do the quality control to back up this specification.  Most speaker manufactures won't even list the DB tolerance around their "20-20000 hz" frequency specification.  The SP2 is +- 3db 54-14000 hz, which is fine for my ears since I lost above 14000 hz in the Army.  
It is frankly a lot cheaper to buy a good console piano from the fifties. I saw a Grinnell Bros of Detroit 40 console for sale last month for $100 in Louisville, in black.  This is a store brand but the one in the attic room of a church I have attended sounds and performs okay. It holds tune very well.  I picked up a 1941 Steinway 40 with cosmetic issues for $1000 in 2010.  Tuning a used piano yourself, four or five times for a neglected one, saves having to buy it from a dealer at five to seven times the prices I paid.    
Brand from the fifties sixties worth investigating on the used market are Baldwin (Aerosonic), Baldwin Hamilton, Sohmer, Mason & Hamlin, Chickering, Wurlitzer, Cable Nelson, Grinell Bros.  Steinway.  The latter is usually worn out if you get there first, but I was lucky, my Steinway was rejected by the flipper for cosmetic issues before I got there.  You can't beat the flipper.  Not all models will be premium, I've heard Wurlitzers with great tone and more cheaply built Wurlitzers with indifferent tone.  Count the number of dampers missing and see if the strings go above the hammers much on the treble to spot the more premium scale models.  Check the action for speed of repetition, check every note, reject a broken soundboard. Look for scooped hammers in the middle on a high usage piano, you don't need to buy one like that.   Don't worry about poor intonation, a broken treble string, or missing ivory on a bargain, those can be repaired by you.  Pianos with   strings more than a full tone flat, watch for loose pin socket and don't buy that.  
Have a rubber pad piano dolly purchased from New Haven Moving Equipment or Mcmaster.com in your car, and have a rental truck and helper spotted that you can quickly access, to get the best bargains.  Tie the piano down properly to the truck or trailer walls when moving, not around the legs. Consoles will move on the back in a SUV or car trunk if you can tip it and use UHMW sheet or plywood and a pad to scoot it on its back.  A flat ramp is important on the back.   If you can't move a bargain piano out today before the carpet man comes or the house has to be sold, the flipper will be there right after you and move the bargain to his warehouse 70 miles away before you can get back.  He will multiply the price 5-10 times for his acumen and tuning ability.  I've seen Steinway 40's for $5500 in New York, and Baldwin Acrosonics from the flipper typically are $700, 70 miles away (or $170 by U-haul truck).  
Good luck.  

[ferron123]

So basically you're telling me it aint worth it and I should buy a real piano ?

[dcstudio]

Then whats the point in having AUX out if the sound is going to be "fake" anyway ? I thought digital pianos were better used with sound systems.

Are you sure about what you're telling me ? I've been told the exact opposite like an hour ago.

And I don't have the manual.

Thank you

well, I'm just a girl... maybe IDK anything.  you decide yourself


the sound is going to be "fake" because is digital.

you use a digital piano because it doesn't need to be tuned
you can pick it up and carry it to your gig
you  can plug it in to a pa and broadcast it
you can buy effects and sound patches
you can create your own unique soundscape
you can practice it while wearing headphones and not wake the kids

...among many other reasons...

not because it will ever sound or feel exactly like a real piano---and to me keyboards sound the best through a nice pair of headphones... 

I own a Yamaha myself... the latest in a long line of keyboards I have owned over the years.     if you want to shell out another $1000 bucks and buy yourself a decent rig to go with your keyboard then yes--it will sound better than the onboards--and that's what the AUX out is for.  What I am telling you is to learn to love it...for what it is.   btw--peavey is a brand for metalheads lol...  no offense to Indianjo

[ferron123]

I dont know if you are sarcatic or not, but I didn't meant to offend you (if I did).

Thanks for your replies. 

[dcstudio]

wow... didn't mean for that to sound that bitchy...lol

I apologize...   

[ferron123]

Lol no you didnt sound bitchy. I was afraid I had offended you by asking if you were sure about what you were saying.

[lhorwinkle]

Actually, dc did sound bitchy.  But he's right.  A digital will never sound like an acoustic.

But to original question:  Will external speakers sound better than the P255's internals?  Yes, but not much.

If you want decent piano sound from a digital, ditch the internal sounds.  Get piano software for a PC, hook the P255 to the PC, and be happy.  The sound is MUCH better. (But in this case you'll definitely need external speakers.)

[dcstudio]

yeah... I was sounding bitchy...lol  and I am a she

to be honest I've owned many keyboards and many amps and I have always hated the sound of a digital piano run through a pa---it's grating...  I wear an ear monitor so I don't have to hear it. 

You really notice it in the attack...  it's very frustrating..

what I was trying to say was--"it sux"  no matter what you do it's still gonna suck.  LOL

but that's not very positive is it... .

[indianajo]

to be honest I've owned many keyboards and many amps and I have always hated the sound of a digital piano run through a pa---it's grating...  I wear an ear monitor so I don't have to hear it.  

You really notice it in the attack...  it's very frustrating..

The attack is why you need a 400 watts/channel peak amplifier driving sensitive speakers (101 db/1 w 1 m on the SP2 XT I own) to get proper attacks. Or at least 200.  On non pro speakers with less sensitivity, you'll need even more watts.  Most speakers make a lot of distortion near their sound peak, that is why I like these huge 600 w program source rated PA speakers in my living room.  I certainly don't play them over 1.5 w average on rock music ( I like that too, I just can't play guitar).  But hearing Elton John or Peter Keys (Skynyrd) Peter Nero or George Winston play the real thing on vinyl or CD is worth having a $1000 hifi system in the living room.    GW plays Bosendorfers, those have even stronger attack than a Steinway or Yamaha grand.  The fact that my hifi rig was supported by metal and crunch guitar fans just made the price affordable.  The whole rig came from a retiring bar band leaving the road.  You can buy Voice of the Theater original speakers and Western Electric tube amps from a theatre, if you have $5000 to $10000. I never had that much for hobbies.  Long Point cinema in 1967 is where I heard reproduced bells sounding properly, guided by my HS band director.  
If I want decent sound on something I can play, I just play the Steinway or Sohmer.  right between the speakers.  Excellent sound.  
If one is recording, I see the point of digital keyboards.  Recording my actual piano properly would require at least one more $400 Shure mike (I have one), and I've got to find a place to put the mixer where the transformer hum doesn't emit into the microphone.  (Or repair the 1996 Peavey mixer). But of the people that listen to my recording. 99.99% of the listeners not using headphones will be hearing peak limited pap, nothing like a real piano sound.    

[dcstudio]

The attack is why you need a 400 watts/channel peak amplifier driving sensitive speakers (101 db/1 w 1 m on the SP2 XT I own) to get proper attacks. Or at least 200.  On non pro speakers with less sensitivity, you'll need even more watts.  Most speakers make a lot of distortion near their sound peak, that is why I like these huge 600 w program source rated PA speakers in my living room.  I certainly don't play them over 1.5 w average on rock music ( I like that too, I just can't play guitar).  But hearing Elton John or Peter Keys (Skynyrd) Peter Nero or George Winston play the real thing on vinyl or CD is worth having a $1000 hifi system in the living room.    GW plays Bosendorfers, those have even stronger attack than a Steinway or Yamaha grand.  The fact that my hifi rig was supported by metal and crunch guitar fans just made the price affordable.  The whole rig came from a retiring bar band leaving the road.  You can buy Voice of the Theater original speakers and Western Electric tube amps from a theatre, if you have $5000 to $10000. I never had that much for hobbies.  Long Point cinema in 1967 is where I heard reproduced bells sounding properly, guided by my HS band director.  
If I want decent sound on something I can play, I just play the Steinway or Sohmer.  right between the speakers.  Excellent sound.  
If one is recording, I see the point of digital keyboards.  Recording my actual piano properly would require at least one more $400 Shure mike (I have one), and I've got to find a place to put the mixer where the transformer hum doesn't emit into the microphone.  (Or repair the 1996 Peavey mixer). But of the people that listen to my recording. 99.99% of the listeners not using headphones will be hearing peak limited pap, nothing like a real piano sound.    

hey OP   Indianjo knows way more than me...  

I am so lazy when it comes to learning how to work my own equipment...really.  My husband does the engineering... he sets us up when we play..  I usually drink a glass of wine at the bar...lol

so 400 watts per...huh.. I will give it a try.   It's really so awful to hate the sound of your instrument when you are playing live...  it's painful...really really painful.   My husband's answer-- "deal with it" it's the best we can do right now.

ouch.

[jimbo320]

I use one Behringer KT108 for each side that are quite fine for complete sound reproduction...

[x984x]

I have a few questions concerning my portable piano. Its a p255, and I think the sound from the built in speaker sucks. Its great in my headphones though.

That tells you that:
a) The piano electronics itself generates sound you like just fine.
b) The built in speakers either suck, or possibly are even blown.

Would plugging it to studio monitors make the sound better ? ( i dont want it much louder, only better)

Look, the built in speakers suck. Look under the unit where they are and see for yourself! According to the specs you've got a pair of 2"x4" speakers running at 15 watts.

So do you need studio speakers to make it sound better? Do you need 600 watts? Do you need a Peavey Amplifier? Do you need high end tower speakers? Do you need 400W/channel driving sensitive 101 db/1w1m... ?

No. No. No. No.

Yes, those WILL work great. And yes, you can spend more money and get better sound. But cheap lamp wire will work just fine as speaker wire for pretty much any home audio application.

Do you NEED 10 gauge speaker wire?  No. Not unless your running an 8 ohm load (standard home speaker) more than 100 feet from the amp? Does that sound like your piano room?

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1859/screenshot0022o.png

What ever you NEVER let an audiophile sell or spec your audio equipment.

The key thing to remember is: right now you have a pair of 2x4 speakers running at 15 watts.

Pretty much ANYTHING bigger and better will sound bigger and better than that. Walk into a best buy and buy $200 pair of bookshelf speakers and an inexpensive stereo amplifier. You'll already be miles ahead of where you are right now.

Or look at a $200-$300 5.1 surround sound home theatre in a box, with a stereo input, and the ability to split a stereo signal into a surround one is also only a couple hundred and would sound a lot bigger and better; and that might be ideal. Lots of options to play with speaker placement for best results. You certainly wouldn't want to try and project sound into an actual concert hall with that setup and even for home use you can do better... but don't compare it to what you could have... compare it to what you DO have: a pair of 2x4s running at 15W.

(Plus they usually have several modes too to simulate the effect of being a theatre or hall etc... you might like the effect of that a lot... or you might hate it.)

Or look at a used stereo/speakers from a pawnshop....

I don't know how particular you are being, whether you are demanding it sound exactly like a steinway grand (in which case I suggest buying one as the only way you are ever going to be truly happy)... or if you just don't like the barely entry level 15watt 2x4s you have now and want something better ---  if its the latter, pretty much anything would be a solid upgrade.

[ferron123]

         Thank you everyone for taking some of your time to answer.   

         I don't want to spend much money on audio stuff for a digital. I don't think its worth it. If I wanted the sound of an acoustic, I'd have bought an acoustic instead of the P255. 
I just wanted to know if studio monitors would be better than the weak built-in speakers.


        I'm not an audiophile. I have a Clavinova CLP430, and I enjoy its sound and power (It has built-in 40 watt speakers). I just think the built-in speakers of the P255 sucks, becomes ''artificial'' and lacks depth at higher volumes compared to my CLP430. I'm comparing it to another digital, not a steinway or whatever grand piano. 
That being said, I wouldn't have bought it if I couldn't stand its sound at all; I know its a mid-range digital with small speakers. Again, I just wanted to know if monitors would increase the quality of the sound, because of the above reason.



        Today, I tried it with a cheap amp and I tried it in a room with some 2k+ equipement. The high-end equipement didn't impress me much more (beside extreme volume, which I don't need) than the cheap amp because I was satisfied with both; I got what I wanted, which is a better sound than the built-in speakers.


        I'll see if I can borrow monitors from the local store, and then I'll make my choice. So, it'll be some cheap-ish monitors or inexpensive amp/speaker.

Thank you everyone for your answers. I appreciate it.
Mathieu

[indianajo]

Do you need 600 watts? Do you need a Peavey Amplifier? Do you need high end tower speakers? Do you need 400W/channel driving sensitive 101 db/1w1m... ?
No. No. No. No.
Yes, those WILL work great. And yes, you can spend more money and get better sound. But cheap lamp wire will work just fine as speaker wire for pretty much any home audio application.
Do you NEED 10 gauge speaker wire?   No. Not unless your running an 8 ohm load (standard home speaker) more than 100 feet from the amp? Does that sound like your piano room?
What ever you NEVER let an audiophile sell or spec your audio equipment.

Here is a cheap experiment.
Take a modern CD of a pianist playing Appasionata Sonata by Beethoven, that sounds good on headphones. Play movementt 1 the one with the low notes, that small diameter speakers can't reproduce.  
Take a CD of Peter Nero, Young and Warm and Wonderful, the When I Fall in love track with the solo top octave grand piano. Or another top octave solo piano CD that sounds like a real piano.
Go the the local Peavey dealer, ask to audition a pair of SP2 speakers with a CS800s or CS600s amp.
Check their CD players with your headphones, or take your own, those guys no NOTHING about proper piano sound and could care less. But they do like selling merchandise.
See if you think that rig sounds like the piano in your headphones. Now you will know what sound is possible for $2200 new price.  
I find with 16 ga zip cord as speaker wire, the Peavey rig has some very fast vibrato on the top octave piano solo.  Grand pianos don't come with vibrato on any octave.  Changing the speaker wire to 10 ga 3SO cord (factory surplus) eliminated the vibrato.  
Good luck ferron123 with your low buck experiments, but I found buying a used bar band setup knocked $1200 off the new price.  You may do better now, I've seen used Peavey SP2-XT speakers as low as $300 the pair on craigslist, although I would sound check them before buying in case of a bad repair.   I had to drive waay out in the country to find my $1000 speaker/amp rig, and audition it in a weird five sided rehearsal room in a a double wide in a trailer park.  I had to have the cash.  Good thing this was a country&western band, the speakers were dusted in tobacco ash, but none of the vile smelling substance that rock bands tend to smoke.  The speakers were dirty but fine, but there were issues- the input to the amp was going in the "out" jacks, (burned input resistors), the mixer had a mechanical transformer hum (loose rivits), the amp has to be turned on several times until the breaker doesn't blow (expired PS e-caps), the graphic equalizer and reverb effect boxes had power supply hum (expired PS e-caps) . For $1200 off I put up with some repairable $20 issues, like I put up with the 44 year old tuning on the 41 Steinway console piano I bought.  You may want to buy new to avoid learning electronics repair.  
But buying one speaker pair after another strikes me as a waste of money now that something that can reproduce piano cheaper than Altec-Lansing Voice of the Theater speakers is available.  I've never, in my life, heard any other speaker pair that sounds remotely like a grand piano. This includes the entire stock of all the Hifi stores in Houston 1974-1980, and some "premium" speakers some friends have demonstrated from time to time, usually on pop music.   In London NYC and LA, such premium products might  be for sale and available for audition, but here we have only Best Buy selling  Polk Audio single driver speakers,  in a big concrete wall warehouse where nothing can sound like in your living room. Piano sound is the toughest sound to do without distorting IMHO (bells are also hard), and sitting in my living room wearing headphones annoys me.  Playing a digital keyboard wearing headphones would annoy me worse.  
Best of luck shopping.  

[dcstudio]

 Houston
  

that really means "hell"     

  can't imagine it's much hotter down there in the pits of Hades...  and I bet it never floods there either... hmmm so... Houston, worse than hell.

[slobajudge]

        Thank you everyone for taking some of your time to answer.  

         I don't want to spend much money on audio stuff for a digital. I don't think its worth it. If I wanted the sound of an acoustic, I'd have bought an acoustic instead of the P255.  
I just wanted to know if studio monitors would be better than the weak built-in speakers.


        I'm not an audiophile. I have a Clavinova CLP430, and I enjoy its sound and power (It has built-in 40 watt speakers). I just think the built-in speakers of the P255 sucks, becomes ''artificial'' and lacks depth at higher volumes compared to my CLP430. I'm comparing it to another digital, not a steinway or whatever grand piano.  
That being said, I wouldn't have bought it if I couldn't stand its sound at all; I know its a mid-range digital with small speakers. Again, I just wanted to know if monitors would increase the quality of the sound, because of the above reason.



        Today, I tried it with a cheap amp and I tried it in a room with some 2k+ equipement. The high-end equipement didn't impress me much more (beside extreme volume, which I don't need) than the cheap amp because I was satisfied with both; I got what I wanted, which is a better sound than the built-in speakers.


        I'll see if I can borrow monitors from the local store, and then I'll make my choice. So, it'll be some cheap-ish monitors or inexpensive amp/speaker.

Thank you everyone for your answers. I appreciate it.
Mathieu

Hello everyone,
no matter what speakers you choose, the internal piano samples in P255 sucks, but this is also case in many digital pianos with much higher price, so don`t waste your money. Beside a real grand piano, the only thing you can do to have a very good piano sound with your p255 is to use it as a midi, some quality piano VST software, connect to PC or Mac, go for some good speakers, studio or PA (depends), and enjoy.
For example, I am in love with my Kawai vpc1 and VSL Vienna Imperial (boesendorfer 290). This combination is soooo good, that I don`t need to buy anything else, only top brands grand pianos are better then that. My opinion. Good luck !
    

[x984x]

Hello everyone,
no matter what speakers you choose, the internal piano samples in P255 sucks

Seeing as they are happy with the sound from the headphones, the problem the user has with the sound is not the piano samples but simply is the internal speakers.

You may not be a fan of the P255 samples, but they are not a problem concerning the original poster.

[slobajudge]

Seeing as they are happy with the sound from the headphones, the problem the user has with the sound is not the piano samples but simply is the internal speakers.

You may not be a fan of the P255 samples, but they are not a problem concerning the original poster.

He already tried with good speakers but not satisfied with it completely, because the main problem is low quality of samples. I guess he obviously doesn`t realize that yet. In that situation the best speakers in the world produce unrealistic and bad experience.      

[x984x]

He already tried with good speakers but not satisfied with it completely, because the main problem is low quality of samples. I guess he obviously doesn`t realize that yet. In that situation the best speakers in the world produce unrealistic and bad experience.      

If it were the samples he didn't like then he'd be just as disappointed with the headphones. Clearly the samples are not the "main" problem.

In any case it sounds like he -did- in fact find something he said he was satisfied with; although he hasn't pulled the trigger on a purchase yet; as he's still doing some comparison shopping.

[ferron123]

         I am completly satisfied with the sampled sounds. I'm not dumb enough to buy a piano which I hated the sound sample in itself. I love it with headphones.

         I am also satisfied with the sound coming from both cheap and expensive external speakers; I meant that the super expensive stuff didn't impress me, I didn't mean I wasn't satisfied with it.

Thank you,
Mathieu

[hfmadopter]

         I am completly satisfied with the sampled sounds. I'm not dumb enough to buy a piano which I hated the sound sample in itself. I love it with headphones.

         I am also satisfied with the sound coming from both cheap and expensive external speakers; I meant that the super expensive stuff didn't impress me, I didn't mean I wasn't satisfied with it.

Thank you,
Mathieu

Ok, if the superior more expensive speakers don't sound better than the cheaper and or lesser ones then your samples are not up to snuff and possibly the processing as well, and line transfer too.. And also, when the samples are "really right" along with the processing. Then the headphones will sound even more spectacular than now. The things you miss in digital with inferior flow is much of the subtle nuances you would be hearing if you had a good VST and sound card device working with the higher quality speakers. It should well outshine the cheap ones. Been there done that is how I know. I avoided it with just a niggle in the background saying to me internally," this can be better yet". Now I hear the sympathetic resonance, now I hear metallic string sounds ring when I hit extra hard, now I hear the hammers hardness vs softness, now I hear the dampers lifting, now I hear the dampers returning. Now I hear much of what a real grand piano delivers. That haunting hollow resonant tone, echo of some pianos, that subtle knocking wood sound up in the high treble where the short strings live. And understand that I thought I was happy before and I also own a real grand piano to compare to. Now I own several stored within Pianoteq, delivered through a Scarlett 4 to Adam Audio uncolored speakers and using a low level of DB from a sub to help pick up the bass. It's awesome sounding, it really is. Is it exactly sounding like a real grand piano ? No it isn't but from the next room you would really have to listen close to tell that. Dynamic range is set in each piano individually to my taste, I have a Steinway D and Bechstein that I can bring down to a whisper, that my real grand can't do reliably but I bet a real Bechstein or D would ( it's very old, could use regulation) and then wham into FF.

It will always be digital though, the sound is coming through speakers after all. It's just a matter of where you want to stop off at . I wanted mine closer to real. Over a period of a couple of years I have accomplished that. Now I'm recording from it. Pretty reliably. but ya know, even a real grand recorded is played through speakers. I suggest you try the free download of Pianoteq to start with , you don't have to buy a thing, maybe a USB chord and something like the Scarlett 2 would get you going. I bought my 4 from a place with a two week return policy, so had nothing to lose. Found out that night, I wasn't returning. It brought unheard clarity, unrealized clarity actually. I didn't really know I was missing it, even in the headphones..

Anyway, that's my take, that's my story. You should do as you wish, I'm just the messenger.