Rhythm and Adult Students

[urbanspice]

Hey, guys just a few quick questions.
Is it me or do adult male students have the most trouble with rhythms? So far, I'm 2:1.
1) I have an adult transfer student who I am not sure fully understands eigth note rhythm\subdivision. On one piece, his eigth note rhythm is fine. In another one, it is completely off, along with his tempo at various places in the piece. He also has one other piece where the eigth note rhythm is off. I've been giving him tons of different tips on how to get the rhythm (counting out loud, clapping, metrenome- which he reminds me constantly that he hates... sigh, sometimes I wish I could be a two year and say "shut-up!" insteand of "keep trying, you'll get it.", just practicing playing eigth notes, just playing the problem measures,ect) and he keeps insisting that he has learned the piece and can't relearn it. Should I just give up and start fresh with another piece or keep doing the old piece until he gets the correct rhythm? I don't think he understands eighth notes and the only reason his other piece has the correct rhythm is because he has just "memorized" the correct rhythm. (Hopefully this makes sense.)
2. I have another adult male student who is also having problem with eighth notes and tempo. He is a beginner that I started with. When he counts out loud his rhythm is mostly correct, when he doesn't it is wrong. I was wondering about how long it should take an adult student to learn instinctively how to play eigth notes with out me forcing them to count out loud, clap, and do many other exercises.
Right now, I'm making him practice snapping to a song on cd and doing that for me each lesson, which hopefully will help with his tempo. Any suggestions about this would be appreciate. Especially, if someone has suitable physical exercises that an adult wouldn't feel stupid doing.
3. Lastly, I just want suggestions for my next question. I'm need to teach an eight year old about sixteenth notes. I would like suggestions about what worked and didn't work for you, or really simplified ways to do this so that an eight would understand the concept easily. Thanks.

[Grzegorz]

Being a student I can say what worked for me when I was young. My teacher just taught me about fractions! Adding 1/16 and 1/16 equals 1/8 etc. I got the idea and had no problems with eights, sixteenths etc.  I can even say more - it was something interesting for me, these fractions, so I began to look for myself for some more info about them and when it was introduced in school I already knew everything about them I was really grateful to him! /well, maybe the main reason was that I constantly asked him about the markings 4/4, 3/4 at the clefs, what was it for, what it meant etc. and he finally had to tell me about this all but it really helped /

Grzegorz

[Liween]

Yes, I also have this problem.  If I tap my foot or count out loud I am able to say 1+2+3+4+ but when I play a piece with crochet and minim mix with quaver, I seems to lost count.  Well unless the piece is slow otherwise I have problem co-ordinating my fingers to follow up with the counting.

Hope someone can give me a tip on this.

[bernhard]

Get a few bars of chocolate – of the kind that is divided in 64 little rectangles.

Then tell them: the whole bar of chocolate is a semibreve (= whole note)
Break the bar in half and you get two minims (= two half notes)

Therefore 2 minims (half chocolate bars; half note) make up one semibreve (one whole chocolate bar, on whole note).

Explain that it is not really about “notes” but about “duration”, that is how long the note lasts: a whole chocolate bar takes far longer to eat than one of the little 64 rectangles.

You get the idea. If they get the idea too, share the chocolate with them!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Daniel_piano]

I think that piano teaching and piano classes should include math learning and math classes as well
Math is really important to music
I'm not talking about applied algebra here, just numerical math

A friend of mine got his Ph.D in mathematic
He also do the musician as hobby, playing piano pieces from movies and musicals, playing piano sonatas,  transcribing pieces for piano and composing
He is self taught and can devote few time to music and piano
Nevertheless he is a genius to be self taught, his transcription are perfect, his understanding of rhythm is impressing

I think that his math skill has everything to do with his unbelieavable and unexplanaible otherwise music skill
Can someone suggest me a good math book?
The one from my school sucks, sucks, sucks, sucks !!!!!!!!!!!

Daniel

[m1469]

Get a few bars of chocolate – of the kind that is divided in 64 little rectangles.

mmm (milk)chocolate, what a delightful solution  !

[Liween]

  Yummy ... chocolate warms up my body in this cool season.

But anyway that I can co-ordinate my fingers following exactly the rhythm ?  I am practising with a metronome and for crochet I dont face problem.  I simply cant get myself following quaver and play it evenly.  sometimes faster or slower than the previously by half or quarter of a second.

[timothy42b]

Yummy ... chocolate warms up my body in this cool season.

But anyway that I can co-ordinate my fingers following exactly the rhythm ?  I am practising with a metronome and for crochet I dont face problem.  I simply cant get myself following quaver and play it evenly.  sometimes faster or slower than the previously by half or quarter of a second.

At least you notice your error, and that is a big part of the problem with older students.

You must subdivide.  Generally your error is half your subdivision.  If you are measuring yards with a tape marked in yards, you may be off half a yard.  If it is marked in feet you'll be plus or minus six inches.  Etc. 

So if you are playing quarters, you may be off an eighth note if you count One Two Three Four.  But at One-EE-And-Uh, sixteenths, you'll only be off a 32cnd.  Plus, it helps you to internalize the metronome, and get that steady rhythm ticking away inside. 

Now, controversial assertion coming up.  One of the things that fades as we age is rhythm and internal timing.  It is the reason older golfers head for the senior tour.  The golf swing has a requirement for precise timing beyond most activities.  If all the various releasing actions don't occur at exactly the right time, the face of the club is not at the right angle.  (There are many who feel it is TOO hard for the average human.  We wish it were impossible.)  There is some recent research that suggests the main reason for the decline in performance of older golfers is the loss of internal timing. 

Now, is this loss enough to make it hard for an adult to learn piano?  Nah, I doubt it, but some of these people have never internalized any type of time in their life, and doing it now isn't easy. 

[Liween]

   Yes it's never easy for me to follow the timing ... I just told my teacher that I have a probia when the metronome is on.  Without the metronome, I feel that I can play a piece much more smoothly and evenly but once I on the metronome, my fingers and mind simply cant co-ordinate together. 

How to kick the probia of this metronome ? My teacher suggested to me that I start with very very slow mm say around 80 and below and then gradually increase. 

So now .... any ways to keep time with the metronome I need this piece of advice badly.

[mound]

start slowly and don't challenge yourself with too difficult repertoir.

have you tired simply playing your scales with the metronome?

by the way, don't get too bent on playing an entire piece with the metronome on everytime.. You can definitely over use it.. Turn it on to check yourself and then turn it back off. 

Check out this thread from Bernhard:
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3002.msg26246.html#msg26246

-Paul