How fast should I play these cadenzas?

[pencilart3]

If that's what they're called... cadenzas? yeah I think so. Well anyway, I need to play this for a competition in about 5 months (the winner gets to play with the symphony orchestra here in town...       ) Well anyway, how fast should I play these? I made these recordings in a hurry, I can play them much better but there's no need to re record, I just want your opinions on speed. The first mp3 is the main theme, the second is with the cadenzas (if that's what they're called   ). Any advice on tempo/speed would be great.


Main theme - https://soundcloud.com/prelude8/main-theme

With cadenzas - https://soundcloud.com/prelude8/with-cadenzas

(lol sorry for botching that seconds cadenza  )

[mjames]

as far as I know, there are no cadenzas in chopin's concerti.

the word youre looking for is a 'crap load of ornamentations.'

[pencilart3]

as far as I know, there are no cadenzas in chopin's concerti.

the word youre looking for is a 'crap load of ornamentations.'

Correct. How fast should I play the crap load of ornamentations?

[louispodesta]

Correct. How fast should I play the crap load of ornamentations?

Oh, I am going to be such a good boy.

The term "Ad libitum" means with liberty.  Everything has to make logical sense, for your purposes, in terms of rhythm.

I have, and every one else, has witnessed someone play a Cadenza for a Mozart Concerto in the style of Liszt, (which if anyone can contradict me) never happened in Liszt' lifetime.  It makes no sense.

Therefore, my suggestion is that you start slowly, section by section, and then build from there focusing of course on the ending blending into the next orchestral part.  This has to be your own voice, and forget about the tempo.  It is way more important compositionally (which is what you are doing) to have it be your own.

[pencilart3]

So am I doing it right, or not?

[louispodesta]

So am I doing it right, or not?

Once upon a time, in a one hour documentary regarding the Chopin International Competition, the long time Chair of the Jury was asked how Chopin should be played.  His answer was:  in a highly improvisational manner."

And, that I have been often criticized for using recorded examples to illustrate my point, I will do so  again.  This pianist was internationally acclaimed for his performance of this piece.

Specific to your recording, and my compliments on the rolled chords (absent Karol Mikuli) this is most likely the way Chopin played it.  Most importantly,  in that Chopin used to play encores of the very same piece he had played in the regular program, he improvised a different version.

Your two versions, in my opinion, are way to metronomic.  Dr. Robert Winter of UCLA refers to this concept as the "push and pull."  Please listen to the entire recorded link I am sending you, and you will hear the difference.

As a high compliment, you are light years ahead of what the average pianist will be able to effectuate with this piece.  Follow your ear, and follow your heart.

Congratulations!

[pencilart3]

Thank you very much, louispodesta. I will work to not be the human midi file I am.

[louispodesta]

Thank you very much, louispodesta. I will work to not be the human midi file I am.

Your humility is striking by its sincerity.

And, for the record, even though my original post is entitled "Your Piano Teacher Taught You Wrong,"

, there is no right or wrong to the playing of Chopin, in terms of ornamentation.

Specifically, the composer was a very enamored of the "Bel Canto Aria" style of ornamention.  Accordingly, I enclose a link to an article delineating exactly the way the man taught.  Enjoy.
https://www.forte-piano-pianissimo.com/Chopin-the-Teacher.html

[pencilart3]

Your humility is striking by its sincerity.

lol the sarcasm...

[themeandvariation]

Hi Mr. Podesta.
About this idea of 'rolling' (or displacement, or synchronization, which i believe to be in the same camp), i think one should be careful not to paint with too broad a brush..
In his book "Freedom and the Arts", Charles Rosen, in describing this 'affectation'… "Thalberg calls a constant and exaggerated delay of the melody note 'ridiculous and tasteless' and cautiously approves its employment only in a slow tempo...particularly at the beginning of each section of the melody…" ….
"Pianists like Hoffman used it rarely, sometimes to set off a lyric tenderness and lower dynamic level…  Dislocation privileges the soprano line above all others, sets the bass in relief, and tend to leave the inner voices in the shadow"…

"I am delighted if  i hear an occasional or imaginative use of dislocation, but cringe when it is applied bar after bar, phrase after phrase"…  This sounds about right to me… of course depending on of type piece in question… I wonder if the idea of rolling chords is a carry over  from playing the harpsichord…as  chords There (to my ear) sound much better rolled...
You may assert that rolling the chords is a different matter all together than asynchronization, but i feel it to be part of a certain approach.. But any device when too much applied, loses its power..

[pencilart3]

@themeandvariation the rolled chords were written in the score.

[themeandvariation]

Yes… my bad, there..
However, i was responding  to Mr Podesta's statement,  "… on the rolled chords (absent Karol Mikuli) this is most likely the way Chopin played it."…  It is the idea of "most likely" in that ..  (paraphrasing) "That is how they played back then  in the 19th century"….
"That", he has mentioned more than a few times before, and I wanted to respond to this idea.
I am sorry  for the tangent..
I think you are doing very well on those flourishes… gracefulness  trumps a 'forced speed"…

[pencilart3]

Hey thanks! I didn't think it was a tangent at all. At least, not in a bad way I can see both sides of the coin.

[tritone_player]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_GecdMywPw

[pencilart3]

I'm usually not the biggest fan of rubinstein. It was a pretty nice performance though, a little stale in the middle. He played the crap load of ornamentations very slowly. Have any of you guys played this piece? It's harder than it sounds.

[louispodesta]

Hi Mr. Podesta.
About this idea of 'rolling' (or displacement, or synchronization, which i believe to be in the same camp), i think one should be careful not to paint with too broad a brush..
In his book "Freedom and the Arts", Charles Rosen, in describing this 'affectation'… "Thalberg calls a constant and exaggerated delay of the melody note 'ridiculous and tasteless' and cautiously approves its employment only in a slow tempo...particularly at the beginning of each section of the melody…" ….
"Pianists like Hoffman used it rarely, sometimes to set off a lyric tenderness and lower dynamic level…  Dislocation privileges the soprano line above all others, sets the bass in relief, and tend to leave the inner voices in the shadow"…

"I am delighted if  i hear an occasional or imaginative use of dislocation, but cringe when it is applied bar after bar, phrase after phrase"…  This sounds about right to me… of course depending on of type piece in question… I wonder if the idea of rolling chords is a carry over  from playing the harpsichord…as  chords There (to my ear) sound much better rolled...
You may assert that rolling the chords is a different matter all together than asynchronization, but i feel it to be part of a certain approach.. But any device when too much applied, loses its power..

Very well said, but I did not, and I have not ever said that.  What I have said, as a classically trained pianisit/philosopher, is that as an empiricist, I cite a source or sources.

Specifically, in regards my thesis, I have listed Neal Peres Da Costa' book, "Off The Record" (OUP).  Its entitled chapters are:

I.  Early Recordings, Their Value As Evidence, II.  Playing One Hand After The Other, Dislocation, III.  Unnotaded Arpeggiation, IV.  Metrical Rubato And Other Forms of Rhythmic Alteration, and V.  Tempo Modification.

Most importantly, this is the only book on record that has a companion website (cross-referenced throughout the text) that includes 57 excellently recorded example of this type of playing, including Busoni, playing in the original performance practice.   (Available through your library)

Accordingly, I have stated many times that it is musical idiocy to roll every chord, to break the hands on every melody note, to speed up or slow down whenever the fancy strikes you, and to improvise at will - idiocy!  These are enhancements which were widely utilized by Chopin, Brahms, Clara Schumann, Liszt, and hundreds of other pianists in the 19th century.

That is the point, as opposed to some very inaccurate Urtext dictum, that the music schools of this world dictate to the level of disqualifying you as a piano major, and kicking you out of their schools.

Paraphrasing my late piano teacher Robert Weaver taught me:  whatever you do, in the end it has to make logical musical sense.

[themeandvariation]

Mr. Podesta,
Thank you for clarifying your position… My apologies for misreading your 'stance'.   Yes, I agree..   I would only add that 'good taste' could be included making 'logical musical sense"… 

[louispodesta]

Mr. Podesta,
Thank you for clarifying your position… My apologies for misreading your 'stance'.   Yes, I agree..   I would only add that 'good taste' could be included making 'logical musical sense"… 

Very well said.  All the best.