Prelude in E Minor and the ensuing humiliation

[RappinPhil]

Hello everyone, I've posted here once or twice before, so if any of you remember me, hey!

[RappinPhil]

I had no idea where to post this thread because it deals with a piece, my teacher, and me. So anyway, here goes...oh, and damn that enter key, so close to the apostrophe.

I've been studying the  Piano for about 1 year, taking lessons the whole time. So this week I have a lesson, as every week, nothing unsual at all. But this would be a very different lesson, but not as I had intended.

Piece -
I sought to surprise my teacher with Prelude in E Minor by Chopin, an easy, yet beautiful piece. So as the lesson winds down to the final minuntes, I begin to play. Unfortunately, all my hard work at memorizing this piece is disregarded as my piano teacher interrupts me before I finish even the first line. He goes off about the piece being played unevenly and frought with various other mistakes. True, the left hand was uneven, however this was because the piece is meant to be played in "expressivo", or so I thought. In addition, I listened to several recording of this piece, and none of them were played with an even tempo throughout. Any advice or suggestions?

Teacher -
My dialogue with the teacher went something like this....

Teacher: "You're not playing it right. [proceeds to brush me off the bench, begins playing himself].
Me: But the peice is written to be played as "expressivo", so why should it be even?
Teacher: [mutters something]. You're always doing everything but what you're supposed to.
Me: So I can't learn pieces on my own?
Teacher: No, of course you can...you spent most of your time doing this?
Me: No, this was the last thing I did when I practiced.

Self -
 I'm feelin pretty crappy right now about the piano. I have like zero desire to practice because I feel all my efforts are for naught. Any advice? I'm really confused right now, and a little depressed to begin practicing again. Thanks for the help.

[jlh]

Don't feel bad, most of us have had lessons like the one you described.  The thing about that piece is that you have to be able to play expressivo while keeping a steady tempo.  Don't change speeds too rapidly -- I wouldn't advise changing the speed much at all in this piece, but if you must, then spread the change over a few chords instead of just one.  In other words, yes, the left hands needs to be played evenly.

Also, why did you not want some early help from your teacher about this piece?  It could be that he was a bit perturbed that you didn't ask him for help, especially when there are elementary things that could have been easily solved well before you memorized it.

Hang in there!

[RappinPhil]

I didn't come to my teacher for help with this piece earlier because I sought to spring it on him as a sort of surprise, I guess. In retrospect, this was silly, and now I will ask him to help me on it.

[jlh]

Indeed, if after one year of study you even ATTEMPTED this prelude, it shows you have progressed faster than most other students I know of.  Keep at it, and don't be shy to ask questions of your teacher... afterall, that's what you're paying him for, right?

[RappinPhil]

Thanks for your support jih, it means alot 

[bravuraoctaves]

I had no idea where to post this thread because it deals with a piece, my teacher, and me. So anyway, here goes...oh, and *** that enter key, so close to the apostrophe.

I've been studying the  Piano for about 1 year, taking lessons the whole time. So this week I have a lesson, as every week, nothing unsual at all. But this would be a very different lesson, but not as I had intended.

Piece -
I sought to surprise my teacher with Prelude in E Minor by Chopin, an easy, yet beautiful piece. So as the lesson winds down to the final minuntes, I begin to play. Unfortunately, all my hard work at memorizing this piece is disregarded as my piano teacher interrupts me before I finish even the first line. He goes off about the piece being played unevenly and frought with various other mistakes. True, the left hand was uneven, however this was because the piece is meant to be played in "expressivo", or so I thought. In addition, I listened to several recording of this piece, and none of them were played with an even tempo throughout. Any advice or suggestions?

Teacher -
My dialogue with the teacher went something like this....

Teacher: "You're not playing it right. [proceeds to brush me off the bench, begins playing himself].
Me: But the peice is written to be played as "expressivo", so why should it be even?
Teacher: [mutters something]. You're always doing everything but what you're supposed to.
Me: So I can't learn pieces on my own?
Teacher: No, of course you can...you spent most of your time doing this?
Me: No, this was the last thing I did when I practiced.

Self -
 I'm feelin pretty crappy right now about the piano. I have like zero desire to practice because I feel all my efforts are for naught. Any advice? I'm really confused right now, and a little depressed to begin practicing again. Thanks for the help.

From failure comes sucess.  Your teacher knows this piece, so be extremely thick skinned and ask him lots of questions.

Also get a cheap tape recorder, record yourself, and listen to your own playing FROM A DISTANCE - things sound different to you while you are playing than when you are relaxed and listening to yourself.  Make sure everything turns out the way you want it.

That being said, I am not very good a practicing what I preach.

PS. Don't overdo the expressivo thing - sometimes you can distort the piece too much.

[amanfang]

I would think at least that knowing the initiative that the student took, the teacher should at least give the student the opportunity to play the piece in it's entirety.  When a student is that motivated, yes, offer constructive criticism, but also give praise.  I mean, he's only been taking lessons for a year.  I know we've all (or at least I have) had lessons where we only get through 2 lines of one piece, and it is so grueling, and you WERE so excited about playing 4 pages that week, but now you wonder why you even bother taking lessons.  Anyway, don't give up.  Continue to be motivated.  Find music you like and go play it.  And ask your teacher for help too.

[xvimbi]

First of all, don't feel crappy! There is no reason to. Your teacher means well and it is clear that he is interested in you making progress.

There are different approaches to getting a student to make progress. One is to praise everything, give certificates for the smallest success, and perhaps mention that there are still aspects to work on. The second is to focus (only) on those aspects that still need work. Praise is implied by the amount of criticism going down. Then of course, there are countless shades in between those two.

The first approach leads to mediocrity (at best). The second approach leads to potentially great success, but it requires a strong mind to get through this.

I have felt that the second way is the much more direct, honest and productive method: don't sugarcoat things. So, even if you've spent hours to practice something new, if it's terrible, accept that it's terrible.

As a student, one must try to get what one needs from whomever can provide it. Get praise from your friends and this forum for tackling a new and difficult piece. Get criticism from your teacher and this forum, it will help you. Then get consolation again from your friends and the forum, because the teacher and some forum members didn't sugarcoat the criticism. Be aware that your teacher's criticism is most likely justified.

Most teachers want to make their students a better pianist. Many assume (and rightfully so) that the students are motivated and dedicated. So, they don't waste precious time (and money) patting students on their head for accomplishing trivial things.

It comes down to learning how to take criticism. Accept criticism, provided it's construcive, no matter how devastating it may be. It's most likely justified from an objective point of view, and it will help you make progress. As much as some teachers need to learn to be a bit more tactful, students also need to learn to extract the substance from their teachers' teachings. All this will also prepare you for the "real" life. Real life does not sugarcoat things.

If you can't take the way your teacher teaches, find a different one. It is very important to find a good match.

[jazzyprof]

Well said, xvimbi!

[fuel925]

First of all, don't feel crappy! There is no reason to. Your teacher means well and it is clear that he is interested in you making progress.

There are different approaches to getting a student to make progress. One is to praise everything, give certificates for the smallest success, and perhaps mention that there are still aspects to work on. The second is to focus (only) on those aspects that still need work. Praise is implied by the amount of criticism going down. Then of course, there are countless shades in between those two.

The first approach leads to mediocrity (at best). The second approach leads to potentially great success, but it requires a strong mind to get through this.

I have felt that the second way is the much more direct, honest and productive method: don't sugarcoat things. So, even if you've spent hours to practice something new, if it's terrible, accept that it's terrible.

As a student, one must try to get what one needs from whomever can provide it. Get praise from your friends and this forum for tackling a new and difficult piece. Get criticism from your teacher and this forum, it will help you. Then get consolation again from your friends and the forum, because the teacher and some forum members didn't sugarcoat the criticism. Be aware that your teacher's criticism is most likely justified.

Most teachers want to make their students a better pianist. Many assume (and rightfully so) that the students are motivated and dedicated. So, they don't waste precious time (and money) patting students on their head for accomplishing trivial things.

It comes down to learning how to take criticism. Accept criticism, provided it's construcive, no matter how devastating it may be. It's most likely justified from an objective point of view, and it will help you make progress. As much as some teachers need to learn to be a bit more tactful, students also need to learn to extract the substance from their teachers' teachings. All this will also prepare you for the "real" life. Real life does not sugarcoat things.

If you can't take the way your teacher teaches, find a different one. It is very important to find a good match.

I agree with what you are saying, however, the non-sugarcoated method does not work for everyone. I, for instance, do not work well under a strict teacher, or someone whos heavy on the criticisms. Of course, the teacher needs to point out that there were faults in the piece, but he could have at least let the pupil finish playing first, and commend him for using initiative.
I think praise and criticism are just as important as each other. Whats the point in too much praise if the pupil isnt improving? but by the same token, whats the point in too much heavy criticism if the pupil quits the piano?

[redhead]

I had a similar experience many years ago (when I was taking lessons, oboe at the time).   I started some really hard piece with the goal of impressing my teacher.  When he wasn't impressed, since I played it really poorly (years of hindsight talking), I was crushed.

The lesson I learned is that I shouldn't focus my goals on making others impressed with my ability, but to strive to improve my playing as much as possible.  Once I refocussed my goal to something more productive, my teacher's comments were always in line with my goal instead of completely opposite.

It helped tremendously.

[johnnypiano]

 Hi!
There is nothing wrong with wanting to surprise your teacher  I would be delighted with any surprise a student sprung on me.  You have obviously worked hard on this particular piece and it is a pity that the teacher stopped you after only one line.  That is very off putting, especially as the E minor Prelude is short, anyway.  You might have settled down a bit if you had been allowed to continue.

As a teacher, I believe in the carrot and stick approach, ie.  praise in proportion to what the student has achieved, (lashings of it where the student has suddenly come on after weeks of not doing very much) and sensitive, practical help with what further needs to be done.  Bullying is never going to work, neither is a too indulgent approach.  It is the teacher’s job to encourage you to work alongside them, not in opposition.

Your account of the dialogue between you and your teacher is horrific.  Is this characteristic of your relationship?  If so, it might be that you tried too hard to please (or placate) him/her with your big surprise.  You might ask yourself, too, why you left it to the end of the lesson before playing the piece, when both of you might have been tired. 

I don’t know what age you are, but there are certain situations with your teacher you could try managing.  In this case, at the beginning of the lesson, tell the teacher you have worked on something by yourself and, when asked to play it, request that you play to the end before it is discussed.

Never think badly of yourself for wanting to show what you can do, even if it is ‘showing off.’ Music shows off, in different ways all the time.  So do all instrumentalists.

My teacher had the motto: ‘A smile is better than a frown.’ Can you think of a better one!

After one year, you are obviously making good progress.  In this piece, it is better not to try and make it ‘expressive’ by mucking about with the timing.  Think instead of what is actually happening in the left hand: each part of the three-note chords is gradually drifting downwards, independently of the others, a semitone at a time.  This is what makes the music supremely poignant.  Focus on this:  (1) Try singing each part. (2) Practise leaving out any chord which is completely the same as the one before, so you get a better idea of the sequence of harmonies.

Stick to it!  Best wishes, John.  By the way - with a name like RappinPhil you’re not going to stay depressed very long.

[JimDunlop]

Interesting post.  I will comment on it from my own perspective -- I'm a teacher (just not a piano teacher).

I've had students "surprise" me with extra-credit work, notes, songs, etc....  And of course, 99% of the time I could ALWAYS find something to criticize.  For me, having the sensitivity of knowing when/how to correct a student is just as important as actual teaching.   Just because someone's an Olympic swimmer doesn't automatically qualify them as a swimming instructor.  I know many "gurus" in their respective fields -- who can outshine anyone in their specialty, but when it comes to imparting that knowledge, I've gotten better advise from a Magic 8-Ball.

I'm not saying you have a bad teacher.  I do, however, feel that perhaps he expressed bad judgment in his reaction.

The first time I ever tried to write an e-mail in Japanese to my boss, I had a Japanese friend correct/proofread my mail before sending it.  This was good, because it probably saved me from humiliation and losing a lot of face.  However, it did not help matters any, that after she finished reading each line of my oeuvre, she would burst our in hysterical laughter....

It went something like this:

" Ok.  Let's see here.... Wa-ta-shi- wa....... BWAAA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! HAHAHAHAAHA! HAHAHAHA!  Sorry!!   HEHEHEHE....  No.. Seriously.... HEHEH... I'm sorry.  I don't mean to laugh at you... HAHA... Really I don't.  HAHAHA.. Please ignore me... HEH.....  You really <GUFFFAW> did a good job... HEHEH.... A good attempt...<SNICKER>"

Well, needless to say, I've never brought anything back for her to correct again, even though my Japanese has since improved dramatically. 

Teachers can often forget what it's like being on the other side of the bench/desk/table, and as a result may behave inappropriately.

Of course, like the other posters have said, try to have a thick skin about it, learn from your mistakes, and don't give up just because you've had a single bad experience.  I STILL write really bad haikus in Japanese, and it pains me when native-speakers correct the heck out of them.... But I've gotten a lot better too.  And rather than berating myself for screwing up, I tell myself: 'the NEXT one is gonna be PERFECT!'

As a teacher, when a student presents me with something he/she has produced or created, I do four things.

First, I take a deep breath, and exhale any of the pent-up, itchy, cathartic desires to provide immediate criticism and correction.  I remind myself that there is a good reason WHY I'm still the teacher and they're not.  They are looking to ME for approval and validation.  They are sharing this with ME, because they respect my opinion and expertise.  (And of course, it makes you feel good if you get praise from someone who is your superior in something)....

Next,　when the feeling has subsided, I try to turn the tables and reread/experience the work from the student's point of view, trying to imagine what/how the student was trying to express to me.

I point out all the good things and positive aspects of what they've done, and when I offer critique/criticism I try to phrase it in a non-attacking way.  For example: "It sounds more natural to say......" instead of: "you can't say.........."  Or, "next time, try ......." instead of: "you should have .........."  Then, I always finish re-emphasizing that their work was, in fact, laudable.  Then, I ALWAYS avoid the word "attempt."  I may as well then say: 'You tried, but failed.'

Lastly, I usually don't provide more correction than what the student can handle.  I often leave some errors alone on purpose.  Specifically speaking, unless correcting the error is critical to the work, if it's beyond their level, I leave it alone.  Correcting them would discourage the student unnecessarily, because they will not understand what they did wrong and how to avoid the mistake the next time.  I will usually just mention in passing that there are a couple of other things we could discuss, but not yet.   Over time, I will point out ALL the errors to them, but not until they've gained mastery over the easy, glaring mistakes, and not until their self-confidence is enough to handle deep, intense criticism (albeit constructive).  If I feel that all the mistakes SHOULD be addressed, I will tell the student to make the corrections I've pointed out to-date, and come back with the corrected version.  Then, I will go ahead with "round 2," tackling mistakes that I left alone initially.

I mean, OF COURSE I can do it better than the student.  That's not the point!  I also try to avoid "demonstrating" how it SHOULD be done unless the student can't understand any other way.  I often don't give them the right answer immediately, but encourage them to search for it.  If they find it that way, they will not forget it!

Once again, I'm not a piano teacher but an English teacher.  I've also taught Internet skills at a college, tutored students privately, been a voice coach for speech competitions, among other varied things.  These are all things that I've found to be constant regardless of the venue or subject matter of what I'm teaching.

Again, I'm not a piano teacher but in your situation I can say exactly what I probably  would have done.

First, I'd have let you finish the piece.  I would have given you credit for taking extra time and effort to learn it too.  I then would have gotten out a tape-recorder and asked you to play the piece again for the tape so we could go over it together.  Then, I would have gotten a good recording of the same piece, let you listen to it first, then play the version you recorded and asked you to reflect on what you thought were the biggest differences bewtween the two.  I would have then played your piece again and pointed out some specific examples of "what to watch for."  Then, if possible, I'd lend you my CD with the good recording, and tell you that your homework for next week was to "polish" all the areas we talked about.  Then we'd do a new recording and compare it to the old one to see which sounded better.

But that's just me and what I would do..... :-)

Good Luck!

JD

[teachum]

I like what JimDunlop said about "approaches".  I am a teacher, (not music - school) and if I criticized  my third graders "attempts" at things in the manner you described, it would be humiliating to them.  I don't know how old you are, but as an older adult student I feel like I deserve respect as well as constructive criticism from my teacher.  I WANT instruction and criticism, but in an appropriate manner.  If you feel comfortable, I would consider talking to your teacher about the manner in which he talks to you.

Having said that, I play this piece and it is wonderful!  So emotional!  I learned it on my own with help from my sister, who is also a pianist.  She helped me a lot with it so I was able to "surprise" my teacher with it.  But, when I first played it for my sister, she had a lot of criticism, delivered in a very positive way.  I think that's the key.  I play it expressively and very slowly.  I play some measures evenly and others not.  I think playing it very slowly is the most important.  I use the clock on my wall as my metronome. It is less intrusive to me than a real one.  My piece says 63-69 so I just go a little faster than the clock.