I need help with Debussy's Reverie Polyrhythm

[ferron123]

Hello everyone ! Thanks in advance for your replies.

I am learning Reverie, and I didn't encounter difficulties (yet) beside the polyrhythm. Its the first time I play 3 vs 4, and to be honest I really don't know what to do haha.  I've watched videos online about it (Josh Wright's and BachScholar's). My teacher couldn't help me either.
I can hear the notes ''order'', but thats about it.

I'm unable to ask an accurate question. I just can't play it and I need advices.

Thank you,
Mathieu

[roxoco]

Hi - you can try the 'math' approach -

Let's say your music is triplets in the left hard and quarter notes in the right hand. Divide the bar into a count of 12 (=3x4). So then the LH plays a note on counts 1, 5 and 9 and the RH plays a note on counts 1, 4, 7 and 10. So both LH and RH play a note on count 1 and then next play together again at the start of the next bar. This is 100% accurate so play it slow and then as you increase tempo you will be able to play it faster once the pattern of the poly rhythm is familiar to you.

[louispodesta]

Hello everyone ! Thanks in advance for your replies.

I am learning Reverie, and I didn't encounter difficulties (yet) beside the polyrhythm. Its the first time I play 3 vs 4, and to be honest I really don't know what to do haha.  I've watched videos online about it (Josh Wright's and BachScholar's). My teacher couldn't help me either.
I can hear the notes ''order'', but thats about it.

I'm unable to ask an accurate question. I just can't play it and I need advices.

Thank you,
Mathieu

Thank  you for asking the question.  Most so-called intelligent people, because every one wants to be cool, do not expose their level of knowledge in an effort to learn.

In regards the Reverie, which I play, it is a multi-layered piece, but I will address your concerns:

1)  There are many phonemic tricks associated with poly-rhythyms.  You recite a simple song and then you are there.  Not!

2) What you should be after, with any composer's music is to recreate, first in your minds ear, and then at the piano, what the composer was trying to say/impart, with this particular work.

So, and this was taught to me by Dr. Michael Guilenab, who learned it From Eugen Liszt at Eastman, is the following:

What you should be after, with any composer's music is to recreate, first in your minds ear, and then at the piano, what the composer was trying to say/impart, with this particular work.

Regardless of the section of the piece/composer, you reduce every thing to a C Major Scale.  That means you take a particular poly-rhythm to a five note scale pattern in each hand.

You play it one way, using the exact same set of note fingerings (transposed), and then you learn (teach your brain) how to do that.  Then, you do it with the other hand.  Then you do it in C Major, with both hands,

After that you take one hand in C major, the other in the original composition, and then vice versa.  And, it is a huge deal  that you go at your own pace, with many days of rest to accomplish this task.

Remember once again, you are training your brain.

Good luck to you.

[louispodesta]

My sincere apologies, the correct spelling of this great teacher's name is Dr. Michael Guiltinan.

[ferron123]

Thank you for your quick replies.

I will try the count to 12 approach, so I can try to place each note where it ''belongs'' !


Transposing to C major seems like an interesting approach. I'm not sure if I understand it, forgive my english.
Basically, you're telling me to learn the pattern in F major, then C major, and then play one hand in F Major and one in C major ? All that while learning the pattern in my head first ?

Thank you,
Mathieu

[themeandvariation]

Yes, you must learn how 4 against three actually operates before you can 'hear it' by looking at the music.. Perhaps, Mr. Podesta  assumes you have heard recordings.. But, I would not necessarily use that as a learning tool for rhythm.. The 'math' approach will get you there, though at first it will be unrecognizable because of being too slow of a tempo…So you just speed it up, (considerably), a little at a time.. and with some effort, you'll start to hear it... (Though, it is cumbersome to count to 12)..

[roxoco]

Yes - counting to 12 is cumbersome but after a little while you'll get the pattern without counting.

The advantage of the 'math' approach is that it works very generally. e.g. to figure out how a 2 (LH) against 3 (RH) rhythm sounds divide the bar into 6 (=2x3) counts. Then the LH notes are on counts 1 and 4 and the RH notes are on 1, 3 and 5. You can practice this in boring meetings at work (like I do) by mentally counting to 6 and tapping your left hand and right hand according to the counts where LH and RH notes appear.

Try the 2 against 3 before the 3 against 4 since its much easier.

[cbreemer]

I have a "method" for learning various polyrhythms. It surprises me I have not seen it anywhere else. Paradoxically, it works from fast to slow rather than the other way around. All you need is a table and a metronome - no maths.
Suppose you want to get the hang of 3-against-4. Set the metronome to a fast beat, like around 120. Then start tapping 1-2-3-4 on the table with one hand, four taps to the beat, accent on first.
Do that for a while, then stop. Now with other hand. start tapping 1-2-3 to the beat and do that for a while. Alternate the hands a couple of times. Then just put them together, it should feel quite natural. Soon this gets ingrained in your muscle memory and you can gradually slow it down. It should continue to feel easy and natural even on slower tempi.
This approach has always helped me anyway, maybe it can benefit someone else too.

[louispodesta]

Thank you for your quick replies.

I will try the count to 12 approach, so I can try to place each note where it ''belongs'' !


Transposing to C major seems like an interesting approach. I'm not sure if I understand it, forgive my english.
Basically, you're telling me to learn the pattern in F major, then C major, and then play one hand in F Major and one in C major ? All that while learning the pattern in my head first ?

Thank you,
Mathieu

The whole C major approach is built around the fact that you are playing notes in a certain finger pattern.  To get more specific:

1)  Play five notes starting from the little finger of the left hand up to the thumb.  Then, play four notes starting from the thumb up to the fourth finger of the right hand, and then combine the two hands ascending where you can begin and end together.  Next, play it hands together descending.   Next, play it in contrary motion, and then get to where you can play it up and then down in one exercise.

2)  Then, play the notes of one hand in C Major using the specific finger pattern from the Debussy against the straight C major pattern of the other hand, and then reverse the hands.  After that, take the actual notes from the Debussy in one hand, and the do the same process with the other hand.

3)  Finally, play both hands exactly from the Debussy as written.

And, please go slow because you are training your brain and accuracy is everything.  Good luck to you.

[ferron123]

Thank you everyone ! With all your advices, I was ''able'' to play it !! Everything thing on this thread has helped me, again thank you !


Mathieu

[adodd81802]

I don't know how accurate this is, but my piano teacher always told me to sound out the words "Dear little daffodil" with the syllables being each note! in the order L+R, L,R,L,R,L "Dear Lit-tle daf-fo-dil"

Weirdly worked for me pretty simple, and you can say it slowly, little word plays like that often helped me rather than trying to spend too much time mastering a rhythm it seems mentally you subconsciously hold onto the rhythm if you associate it with something. "oom-pa-pa" for the classic waltz is another.

[rdf_mx1]

Try this for polyrhytm.

I hope it helps!