a question for atheists

[josh93248]

Perhaps you're right about Dawkins, I find him far better as a writer than as a speaker though, he is more considered as the former.

I don't know many of the others you mention, you seem to be better versed on this topic than I.

I like Christopher Hitchens but he is also reasonably aggressive... Perhaps I like a bit of fire and brimstone from my own preachers so to speak haha.

[pencilart3]

If you would like to see my reaction to "The God Delusion" I'll give it to you.

My reaction is not one of offense or anger, rather it is that I am sad that this man is headed straight for the pit of hell. He will soon enough learn the truth about his book. As far as its teachings, if I am correct, it is that if one person has a delusion that there is a god they are stupid - but if there is a whole mass of them, then it is an accepted religion. And he feels this way about christianity. Am I correct?

[josh93248]

How do you know God doesn't respect Dawkin's quest for truth? Even if he's wrong he has the spirit of an adventurous scientist and has made great contributions to knowledge. The Selfish Gene is an excellent book and no, it actually isn't about how we should all be selfish. Actually there is an excellent chapter about nature and ethics I find rather encouraging for altruism.

Also he says in the book that he doesn't even like the term god Delusion, he prefers "Relusion" a technical psychological term that is probably too obscure for mainstream readers, which is why he reluctantly went with "Delusion".

I don't think he condemns believers as stupid. More misguided. He does establish that there is a difference between a single believer and a mass. But isn't there? I don't see the point you are trying to make. He is arguing against either position as he feels it is disadvantageous to society and the individual in question.

Also saying someone is headed "for the pit of hell" is insulting in any context, even if you are sad about it, I ask that you do not do that in future.

[thalbergmad]

My reaction is not one of offense or anger, rather it is that I am sad that this man is headed straight for the pit of hell.

Superstitious nonsense. Is it your school or parents that have been pumping your brain full of this horsecrap?? Anyway, why be sad, he certainly is not and he is helping to loosen the grip the absurd fantasy of religion has had on the population of this planet for the last couple of thousand years.

He deserves a Noble Prize if anything.

Thal

[josh93248]

Oh Boy Thal...

I like you already

[thalbergmad]

I have been rather enjoying your posts as well.

Thal

[pencilart3]

Superstitious nonsense. Is it your school or parents that have been pumping your brain full of this horsecrap??

Just how do you define superstitious nonsense? I presume you don't believe the Bible to be true? And why not?

[chopinlover01]

Before we do that, there is has been quite a bit of talk about right and wrong "I know that that's not right, therefore I wouldn't do it whether or not there is a god". What do you base this right and wrong on? Is it on the current moral standards accepted by our culture? Because if so you have a very interesting set of morals. Or do you base it off of the bible? You must have some set of morals pre-established if you are talking about "right" and "wrong".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_ethics

[pencilart3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_ethics

Do you need to copy and paste a wikipedia link to explain what you believe is right and wrong?

[diomedes]

I found the God Delusion to have less interest than the other book Dawkins wrote The Selfish Gene. That one was incredible very informative on human nature and mtivation, in comparison God Delusion was quite repetitive, at least to me.

As for the original topic, i dislike people who think they know everything, religious people fall into that category, they're absolutely convinced that they are right and are typically belligerent. We're humans, yet we know so little. In fact, one thing we do know is generally how dumb we are, just take a look around at how people act. It's rather disheartening.

Anyway, you should probably go spend spend the time practicing Chopin rather than getting mad at people (who you know nothing about) who don't see things the way you do.

[chopinlover01]

Do you need to copy and paste a wikipedia link to explain what you believe is right and wrong?

No, the wikipedia link is one that encloses a much more reliable ethics system than what was written thousands of years ago by desert hermits
Oh, also, you said "I have searched and found no evidence that God is a tyrant". Clearly, we could go for the old testament, but since you probably don't believe in that (which, by the way, is where most of the anti LGBT stuff comes, with the one exception of a Romans verse), let's look at the new testament. God wanted to forgive humanity of its sins committed long ago- and they can do so for the low price of one human, who only has to be the son of God, tortured, and killed by the state for having opposing views!

[pencilart3]

No, the wikipedia link is one that encloses a much more reliable ethics system than what was written thousands of years ago by desert hermits
Oh, also, you said "I have searched and found no evidence that God is a tyrant". Clearly, we could go for the old testament, but since you probably don't believe in that (which, by the way, is where most of the anti LGBT stuff comes, with the one exception of a Romans verse), let's look at the new testament. God wanted to forgive humanity of its sins committed long ago- and they can do so for the low price of one human, who only has to be the son of God, tortured, and killed by the state for having opposing views!

You believe that God is a tyrant in the old testament? Assuming a tyrant is a cruel, oppressive ruler, try to point out one instance in the old testament where God's actions were unjust.

By the way, your little wikipedia article talked about moral intuition. Where do you think we get this "intuition"? And what is the intuition based off of?

[chopinlover01]

One instance? I'll give you many.
To start, he allegedly wiped out every being on the face of the earth (which many Biblical Scholars don't think happened anyways), purely because they weren't completely adherent to his will.
He also ordered the genocide of all citizens of Egypt with the seven plagues, because the Pharaoh was being an ass (and killed all his citizens). He also ordered the mass genocide, enslavement, and raping of the Canaanites in the book of Judges.
He also, with the Ten Commandments, put 3 laws about himself or relating to himself, but forgot to mention anything about slavery or rape- the former of which is later condoned in the Old Testament, the latter requiring the rapist to marry the rape victim.

[thalbergmad]

I presume you don't believe the Bible to be true? And why not?

The difference between you and me is that i think and you know. That is what religion can do to the weak minded.

If you wish to base your existance on the insane witterings of a 2,000 plus year old book written by a multitude of bronze age yak herders, then do so and you will live a very blinkered existance.

Thal

[pencilart3]

One instance? I'll give you many.
To start, he allegedly wiped out every being on the face of the earth (which many Biblical Scholars don't think happened anyways), purely because they weren't completely adherent to his will.
He also ordered the genocide of all citizens of Egypt with the seven plagues, because the Pharaoh was being an ass (and killed all his citizens). He also ordered the mass genocide, enslavement, and raping of the Canaanites in the book of Judges.
He also, with the Ten Commandments, put 3 laws about himself or relating to himself, but forgot to mention anything about slavery or rape- the former of which is later condoned in the Old Testament, the latter requiring the rapist to marry the rape victim.

Very good. You have indeed read at least parts of the bible. If you have done this, then you will surely know why he did these things?

[thalbergmad]

Seems like we got ourselves a little pianistimo here.

Watch out for men in white coats.

Thal

[pencilart3]

Seems like we got ourselves a little pianistimo here.

Watch out for men in white coats.

Thal

Please step out of character for a moment and try to add something to the discussion.

[chopinlover01]

Very good. You have indeed read at least parts of the bible. If you have done this, then you will surely know why he did these things?

I have read large parts of the Bible- I know more about it than many of my Christian friends.
He wiped out everyone with the flood because they were turning away from him. They thought differently and apparently that merits genocide.
The plagues of Egypt was because of a number of things, all of them having to do with Egypt's policies which mostly came from the Pharaoh. Again, he set 7 plagues upon an entire civilization because the ruler was unjust. Not justified.
As for where our rights and wrongs came from, which I forgot to address, if you had bother to read the article, it says "ethics based solely on human faculties such as logic, reason or moral intuition, and not derived from purported supernatural revelation or guidance". If you want to know how those got there, study psychology. It's pretty well explained.
About your statement of Dawkins going to hell, we needn't worry, because your hell doesn't exist And if it does? Well, with all those scientists down there, it's probably air conditioned by now.

[thalbergmad]

My friend, you are wasting your time and knowledge on this child.

I will waste no more and go and listen to some Schumann.

Thal

[pencilart3]

You clearly do not understand what the Bible says. I'm just going to the the standpoint of the Bible here. God CREATED people. He made them. They are HIS people. He made them absolutely perfect. They disobeyed him, bringing sin upon the world. They continued to disobey him over and over and over again. Do you not believe in punishment for wrong, especially against your MAKER?

[josh93248]

I don't believe that having made something gives you absolute power over it. This position when applied to my piano interpretations has ruffled some feathers...

[chopinlover01]

My friend, you are wasting your time and knowledge on this child.

I will waste no more and go and listen to some Schumann.

Thal

Ouch. When Thal puts Schumann higher than you, that's quite the insult  

You clearly do not understand what the Bible says. I'm just going to the the standpoint of the Bible here. God CREATED people. He made them. They are HIS people. He made them absolutely perfect. They disobeyed him, bringing sin upon the world. They continued to disobey him over and over and over again. Do you not believe in punishment for wrong, especially against your MAKER?

Perfect, with all the vestigal organs, some of which can only explode and kill you, right
I believe in punishment, but not the mass genocide of everything living if you didn't believe the rambling old dude across the street who was allegedly 800 years old (clearly fictitious) who was saying that God talked to him- an interesting quote here, by the way, is "If you talk to God, you're religious; if God talks to you, you're a paranoid schizophrenic who needs anti-psychotics".
It's kind of like in Batman Begins, when the League of Shadows is trying to purify the city by killing everyone in it.

[pencilart3]

I have a feeling that you do not want to change, therefore I don't think I should try to make you.

[chopinlover01]

Nor would you be able to logically persuade me- the difference is, I'm not as close minded as the religious nutters who say the Bible is the one and only truth.
I studied many different religions; Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, and Shinto, as well as being raised in a fairly liberal Christian church.
And really the final bit of conversion for me was reading the Bible.

[josh93248]

I'm feeling slightly ignored here, anyone care to address some of my earlier points glossed over in favour of bickering? I don't mind a good intellectual stoush but this is devolving somewhat.

Pencilart, I made some points about faith a while back, I would like to hear your take on what faith is and why it is good, or is you religious position entirely logic based?

[pencilart3]

I'm feeling slightly ignored here, anyone care to address some of my earlier points glossed over in favour of bickering? I don't mind a good intellectual stoush but this is devolving somewhat.

Pencilart, I made some points about faith a while back, I would like to hear your take on what faith is and why it is good, or is you religious position entirely logic based?

I'm sorry josh, I'll look at your posts now. And I'm also sorry to anyone if I came across as rude in any way. I probably did... sigh... I'm really sorry, I just hate to think of what it will be like if you are all in hell... and that makes me kind of frustrated! Again, I apologize.

[pencilart3]

All right josh, you seem to be one who will actually be open to having a discussion, I will too. I will try to put away my christian bias for the time being

I assume you were referring to your points about God being destructive, tyrannical, and unjust?

Let's look at this. God created people perfect, as I stated earlier. If people wouldn't have sinned, there would be no death, and no suffering. God did not create the world with sin, it was Adam who brought sin into the world, and we are the ones who keep sin in the world, by sinning every day. With sin comees curses. This includes death, suffering, etc... In these instances, God was being just by punishing evil people for what they had done. BUT, this is not the only side of God. If this was the only "side" of God, he would be unjust and cruel. The thing is, he is also loving. So, if these people would have repented, as Noah and his family did (haha my name is Noah but there is no connection ) God would have spared all of them. In every instance, the people COULD have repented, but it was their own pride and sin which caused destruction to fall upon them. No one is ever too far from God's grace.

[dcstudio]

Wow...  what are y'all talking about?

lol...  

are we debating the existence of a God?   like we would have any possible understanding of such a being...  please.    

the Bible?   no even going to go there.

I died when I was 15 for 2 minutes give or take...  there was something beyond here--I am sure of that...   but I did not see St Peter standing at a pearly gate...or Buddah, or the Hindu guy, or Alla, or Jesus...     but it was GOOD.    


... but I was dead... so what do I know.  

[chopinlover01]

If I could have an afterlife, it would probably be in a room full of different concert grands and being able to summon any piece of sheet music at my whim.
Other than that, I want this life and only this one.

[pencilart3]

If I could have an afterlife, it would probably be in a room full of different concert grands and being able to summon any piece of sheet music at my whim.
Other than that, I want this life and only this one.

That's the thing, chopinlover. You don't live once. Everyone lives twice, there's no gray zone. Either it's your worst nightmare or your greatest pleasure.

[josh93248]

In part Noah, but also the stuff about faith, that's actually more interesting to me.

I can see how your position makes sense to you, but let me ask a few questions.

What do you suppose is the purpose of giving us free will, if indeed god did? It is conceivable we be made without it. It is also clear that we would almost inevitably sin as is shown repeatedly in the bible. The opportunity may have been there to repent but the problem is giving us free will in the first place and then blaming us when we don't always agree with god. If god is always right and knows what's best then why give us free will at all? It only seems to give us the possibility of doing the wrong thing. Is there something special about "choosing" the right thing, what god wants, rather than just doing it? Then isn't there something special about diverging from god?

Also, what is free will? Is it the expression of who we truly are? Is it the roll of a neurological dice? If it is the former, then if god made us in his image aren't we acting the way god would on our own scale? Are we inferior to god or different? How can we make bad decisions if we are "perfect"?

Finally, this idea of only hell or heaven seems drastically unfair to me. For one someone could barely get into heaven or hell compared to someone who did far more good or bad things. Is this fair? Can mistakes and wrong choices really justify infinite punishment? God has, to my mind an inappropriate measure of justice, invented by him.

Finally consider this. All that is good is good because it is defined by god to be good. Therefore god could choose anything to be good (or bad) therefore alternatives are possible but God does not recognise them. What if good defined murder as good? Are you saying he can't do that? Then he is not all powerful. If good comes from something other than god then good comes from a higher power than god. therefore we should obey that and not god.

I do believe in a higher power than god. Meaning. Billions of artificially created beings, created by a greater being, being put into a place of infinite joy or infinite pain based on something indefinable like choice and free will. What is the point of that? I see no meaning behind it. I see the potential for other meaning as part of aspiration towards knowledge, understanding, expression and altruism. But why all the rules and punishment? Seems unnecessary to me.

[dcstudio]

In part Noah, but also the stuff about faith, that's actually more interesting to me.

I can see how your position makes sense to you, but let me ask a few questions.

What do you suppose is the purpose of giving us free will, if indeed god did? It is conceivable we be made without it. It is also clear that we would almost inevitably sin as is shown repeatedly in the bible. The opportunity may have been there to repent but the problem is giving us free will in the first place and then blaming us when we don't always agree with god. If god is always right and knows what's best then why give us free will at all? It only seems to give us the possibility of doing the wrong thing. Is there something special about "choosing" the right thing, what god wants, rather than just doing it? Then isn't there something special about diverging from god?

Also, what is free will? Is it the expression of who we truly are? Is it the roll of a neurological dice? If it is the former, then if god made us in his image aren't we acting the way god would on our own scale? Are we inferior to god or different? How can we make bad decisions if we are "perfect"?

Finally, this idea of only hell or heaven seems drastically unfair to me. For one someone could barely get into heaven or hell compared to someone who did far more good or bad things. Is this fair? Can mistakes and wrong choices really justify infinite punishment? God has, to my mind an inappropriate measure of justice, invented by him.

Finally consider this. All that is good is good because it is defined by god to be good. Therefore god could choose anything to be good (or bad) therefore alternatives are possible but God does not recognise them. What if good defined murder as good? Are you saying he can't do that? Then he is not all powerful. If good comes from something other than god then good comes from a higher power than god. therefore we should obey that and not god.

I do believe in a higher power than god. Meaning. Billions of artificially created beings, created by a greater being, being put into a place of infinite joy or infinite pain based on something indefinable like choice and free will. What is the point of that? I see no meaning behind it. I see the potential for other meaning as part of aspiration towards knowledge, understanding, expression and altruism. But why all the rules and punishment? Seems unnecessary to me.

I agree with everything you have said.... man's definition of God is fundamentally flawed...in every possible way.... 


  but does that mean that there is no design to the universe?   Separating theology from an understanding that we don't know anything really--and there is a possibility that in some way there is something more than our logical minds can perceive is important. 

 Atheists who reject that which is infinitely possible are as close minded as religious fundamentalists who blindly accept that which is equally not possible...  IMO   

both sides live in a box

[pencilart3]

Hi Josh, thanks for the reply. Let's start at the end.

But why all the rules and punishment? Seems unnecessary to me.

If there were no rules and punishment in the united states (or whatever country you live in), what do you think would be the current status of that country? It would be a chaotic mess! Rules and punishments are a necessary part of life, because of us and our sin.

The thing is, though, God is actually more merciful than our governments - even when you disobey him, he is willing to forgive you! In our current system of government, when somebody breaks the rules, they are thrown into jail, fined, etc... They are given punishment because they broke the rules.

So then, I'm sure you're wondering how he can be just if he releases all the sinners! Consider this: a man is in court because he murdered 11 people, stole 3 million dollars from a bank, and beat an innocent woman on the street. His life is demanded from him! He has broken so many rules! A life must be payed for this! The judge has just given the death sentence, when suddenly, an innocent man steps forward and says that he would like to pay the penalty. Not with money - but with his own life. He dies for the man, and the murderer is set free. You and me, Josh, are both in the shoes of that murderer. So is thal, chopinlover01, dcstudio, outin, dogperson, and every person alive. We have broken so many of God's laws so many times that we deserve death - but you know what? Somebody has stepped forward, much like the man in the court room, and has said that he will pay our debt for us. That he will suffer God's wrath for us. The man in the court room would be an utter fool to not accept the man's sacrifice after he was already dead! He would be a complete idiot to say that he would like to die anyway! NO! The debt has already been payed. And Josh, the debt has already been payed for you. When Jesus was crucified for us, he had done NOTHING wrong in his entire life - he was God's son, perfect in every way. He had done nothing to deserve this death, and yet he paid the price for you and me. Don't walk out of the court room, and want to die anyway.



Free will is God creating us without us being puppets on strings. We have the ability to resist temptation and follow God's laws. We have the ability to do what we choose to do, and believe what we choose to believe. It's wonderful. But at the same time, we are also responsible for the actions we take and the beliefs we have. Which is why we need to accept the sacrifice made for us, praise God for it, and walk out of the court room a free man.

All that is good is good because it is defined by god to be good. Therefore god could choose anything to be good (or bad) therefore alternatives are possible but God does not recognise them. What if good defined murder as good? Are you saying he can't do that? Then he is not all powerful.

Yes, it is defined by God to be good because he is good. He is goodness and perfection. Let me make something very clear: God cannot do two things: sin, or go against his nature. It would be completely contrary to his nature of perfection and goodness to define something that is not inherently good as being good. He cannot tell us something in his word that is not true, because he is truth. God made us, he made everything, the earth, cerebrospinal fluid, science, and he also made morals to conform perfectly with his truth and perfection.

Is it starting to make sense?

[josh93248]

Thanks for agreeing with me DC.

Design is certainly possible, but in humanity's position the best we can do is speculate.

I agree atheists can be bad BUT.

Generally the worst atheists are annoying and terrible at dinner parties.

Generally the worst fundamentalist zealots will kill you for not sharing their beliefs.

I wouldn't necessarily lump the two together.

Noah, I would address your other points but I start to weary of this, I've been at it all night. I will come back though and continue this discussion a bit more but I think I'll draw a line here for now. Anyway, there are other topics floating around worth looking at, I'd actually like to talk to you about other things sometime, if you don't mind.

[pencilart3]

That's fine Josh. Thanks for the discussion! I really hope you think about these things though, it is the most important decision you will ever make.   

[birba]

I was just curious.  Are you a jehova's witness?

[birba]

Oops, sorry.  Of course not.  I answered my own question.

[pencilart3]

I was just curious.  Are you a jehova's witness?

lol no! I'm a Christian...

[chopinlover01]

That's the thing, chopinlover. You don't live once. Everyone lives twice, there's no gray zone. Either it's your worst nightmare or your greatest pleasure.

Mm.. Yeah.. Let me know when you find the evidence for that, Kay? Until then I'll be practicing

[pencilart3]

Mm.. Yeah.. Let me know when you find the evidence for that, Kay? Until then I'll be practicing

THE BIBLE

found it!

[chopinlover01]

THE BIBLE

found it!

Except that the desert wonders who wrote the Bible 3000 years ago are really credible sources for where the whole world came from.

[pencilart3]

Except that the desert wonders who wrote the Bible 3000 years ago are really credible sources for where the whole world came from.

Well, they were closer than us to the creation of it...

[chopinlover01]

Well, they were closer than us to the creation of it...

That like saying people on the moon are closer to the nearest star- it's true, but your still billions of years off. Unless you're young earth creationism, that is. But, we have much more advanced science and geology and biology and many other studies they didn't have then allow us to see tens and thousands of years into the past that they could not see.

[pencilart3]

Yes, I'm definitely young earth. Here's why:

1. Studies over the past 140 years show a consistent decay rate in the earth’s magnetic field. At this rate, in as few as 25,000 years ago, the earth would have been unable to support life because of the heat from the electric current.

2. The water in the oceans contains 3.6% dissolved minerals, giving the ocean its salinity. Salt, composed of the elements sodium and chlorine, is the primary mineral. For years, scientists have been measuring the amount of sodium in the oceans and have found that an estimated 457 million tons are deposited into the oceans annually, while only 122 million tons leave the ocean via numerous methods. Given the current amount of salt in the oceans, the data strongly favors a recent creation and global Flood.

3.The earth is constantly expanding. Given your timeline of a few billion years, the earth would have been smaller than a grain of sand when it began.

4. The continents are eroding at such a rate that, if not for tectonic uplift, meteoric dusting and volcanic influx, they would erode flat (Mt. Everest and all) in less than 25 million years. At this rate, high-altitude, million-year-old fossils should have long since eroded away. And yet they remain. The implication is that these fossils are not millions of years old. If this were true, the entire geologic column would need serious revision.

I could keep going but I'm guessing you don't want to hear about it... 

What evidence do you have for old earth? I'm interested.

[chopinlover01]

Yes, I'm definitely young earth.

It's okay, we all make mistakes.

Here's why:

1. Studies over the past 140 years show a consistent decay rate in the earth’s magnetic field. At this rate, in as few as 25,000 years ago, the earth would have been unable to support life because of the heat from the electric current.

Unlike you may want to believe (as with the other creationists) there are plenty of things that have happened in our solar system that invalidate the whole premise of "since this is how it is now ____ years ago it wouldn't have existed"- which, to be fair, is how the universe's age is determined.

2. The water in the oceans contains 3.6% dissolved minerals, giving the ocean its salinity. Salt, composed of the elements sodium and chlorine, is the primary mineral. For years, scientists have been measuring the amount of sodium in the oceans and have found that an estimated 457 million tons are deposited into the oceans annually, while only 122 million tons leave the ocean via numerous methods. Given the current amount of salt in the oceans, the data strongly favors a recent creation and global Flood.

Simply not true.

3.The earth is constantly expanding. Given your timeline of a few billion years, the earth would have been smaller than a grain of sand when it began.

Also simply not true.

4. The continents are eroding at such a rate that, if not for tectonic uplift, meteoric dusting and volcanic influx, they would erode flat (Mt. Everest and all) in less than 25 million years. At this rate, high-altitude, million-year-old fossils should have long since eroded away. And yet they remain. The implication is that these fossils are not millions of years old. If this were true, the entire geologic column would need serious revision.

So is the Earth expanding, or are it's continents eroding? Which is it?

I could keep going but I'm guessing you don't want to hear about it... 

No, I don't particularly care for psuedo-science.

What evidence do you have for old earth? I'm interested.

Look here for far more than I could tell you

[pencilart3]

Surely you can do better than "simply not true" and "plenty of things". Otherwise I could just say that about your little website.

[birba]

i'm really curious to ask a few questions.  Maybe they've been answered here already.
Have you always been this way or did you have an emlightening at one point in your life?
Are you part of an organized christian sect or denomination?
According to your beliefs, do moral and ethical deviations from the norm merit hell, even if they don't cause harm to others?
What about other religions?  Do they go to hell?
Or people who haven't heatd of the word of your god.  What about them?
I really am curious.  I don't want to argue or discuss these things.

[dcstudio]

I agree atheists can be bad BUT.

Generally the worst atheists are annoying and terrible at dinner parties.

Generally the worst fundamentalist zealots will kill you for not sharing their beliefs.

touche...

[birba]

Oh, i know.  I wanted to ask pencilart what about the civilizations before the bible.  Are they in heaven or hell, or smething else?  What do you believe?  Again, i don't want to discuss this, i just would like to know what you believe.

[pencilart3]

Hi Birba, I would be happy to answer your questions!

1. I have always been a Christian.

2. Um... probably closest to Berean or Baptist.

3. I'm assuming you mean sins that only effect yourself? Interesting question, but I cannot think of a sin which only effects yourself and does not effect somebody else. Yes, one sin merits hell, unless, of course, you repent.

4. I'm not sure what I think about all these denominations and religions. Either you believe in Christ or you don't. If you have asked Christ for forgiveness, you will be saved. If you have not asked Christ for forgiveness and accepted the sacrifice HE made, YOU will be the one who has to pay the sacrifice.

5. People who haven't heard of the word of God and haven't repented have still sinned. And, if they haven't repented of their sin, they will not be saved.

6. There are no civilizations before the Bible. If you read Genesis, you will see that it tells of how God created the world, as well as people. They were saved by believing that Christ would come. We are saved by believing that Christ came.