Christmas question

[Torvald]

I have one question of Christmas for someone to know the answer. In English you say Christmas and in some maybe old writing you say Yule. In Norway we say Jul that sounds same like Yule. I remember from church school -- I do not know what this is in English, it is for children at church -- the instructor telled us that Jul is a old holiday from before christian time. Dos anyone here know what is the history?

[xvimbi]

I have one question of Christmas for someone to know the answer. In English you say Christmas and in some maybe old writing you say Yule. In Norway we say Jul that sounds same like Yule. I remember from church school -- I do not know what this is in English, it is for children at church -- the instructor telled us that Jul is a old holiday from before christian time. Dos anyone here know what is the history?

Good old mighty Google:

https://www.wiccaweb.org.uk/yule.html

[Torvald]

Thank you xvimbi. This article you link is good but do not answer me about the original Norsk Jul. I do not care for any modern witch-pagan ritual but think more of the antiquity celebration. It is difficult to find good information. Everything I finded in google is of today witch-pagan stuff and I want the historic material.

[xvimbi]

Thank you xvimbi. This article you link is good but do not answer me about the original Norsk Jul. I do not care for any modern witch-pagan ritual but think more of the antiquity celebration. It is difficult to find good information. Everything I finded in google is of today witch-pagan stuff and I want the historic material.

I am not sure I follow you. Jul is the ancient ritual of celebrating winter-solstice. It is a celebration of the Earth, more like "Thanksgiving", it seems. It is Pagan, yes, but it does not have anything to do with "witches". By the way, "Christmas" has Pagan roots as well, and the Romans had their Saturnalia.

[willcowskitz]

In Finnish we say "Joulu". The word makes a little more sense now.

In case anyone cares, Christmas comes from Crist-masse "Christ's festival".

[bernhard]

Here is something I copied years ago from some magazine and which may throw some light on your question.


MERRY SATURNALIA

Just how Christian is Christmas? Not as much as you’d think. In fact, not much at all

Christmas: a Christian festival, named after Christ’s mass, celebrating the birth of Jesus. Any fool knows that. Slightly more savvy  people are aware that Christ wasn’t born in 1 AD and know Christmas is actually a cleaned-up version of old rituals. But that’s not the half of it. In fact, Christmas is utterly pagan.

For a start, there is no evidence that Christ was born at Christmas. Shepherds would not have their flocks out in the fields in mid-winter, even in Palestine. Nor would the Romans have ordered a census in the winter, the most difficult time of the year to travel.

As for the 12 days of Christmas, that’s traditionally the time it took for the three wise men to arrive at that stable in Bethlehem. The fact is that Roman Celebrations around the winter solstice (21st December), starting with feast of Saturnalia and ending with the Sol Invictus festival, also lasted 12 days. All over the world, the solstice is connected with the rebirth, so it made sense for the early Christians to tag on their own ersatz birth-celebration to one that was already around.

Or take Santa Claus. ‘Santa Claus’ is ‘Saint Nicholas’ mispronounced, and Saint Nick is the patron saint of children - as well as merchants and pawn-brokers, which seems rather apt. So how did Saint Nick, who lived in Turkey, end up at the North Pole, driving a sledge full of reindeer?

It’s claimed that part of the story goes back to the Norse god Odin who also gave cash to the poor, and who used to ride across the sky. And there’s Cernunnos, the Horned God who led the Wild Hunt, chasing souls through the night sky. Or Freyja, another Norse deity, who was supposed to spend the twelve days after the winter solstice driving a chariot pulled by stags, giving presents to the good and punishing the…well, the naughty. Whichever of the ancient legends you choose, one thing’s for sure: Father Christmas is a pagan figure.

He first appeared as a fat beardly bloke in a fur coat in a poem written in 1822 by Clement Moore and a picture drawn by Thomas Nast in 1860 - up to then he’d been anything from a skinny elf to a thinly disguised version of Cernunnos dressed in green. When in 1931 the Coca-Cola company wanted a figure to represent their drink around the world, they commissioned artist Haddon Sunblun to paint a fat, jolly, human Santa in their corporate colours of red and white, and the rest is history (and marketing).

But red and white is also the colour of the fly agaric mushroom, a powerful hallucinogen from Northern Europe, where it’s a favourite food of reindeer. It used to be a big part of pre-Christian shamanic rituals, and is said to have formed from the specks of blood and spittle that fell from the mouth of Odin’s horse as he galloped on (tahdah!) the winter solstice. And Christmas poet Clement Moore was an expert on European folklore. That’s no coincidence.

Christmas was never a celebration of Christ’s birth - there’s nothing in the Bible to say that Christ’s birth should be celebrated at all, and it was until 375 AD that the Church fixed its date. Instead it was a way of twisting old beliefs to Christianity’s advantage, making more converts for what was then the new faith on the block. Roman historians realised this; in 230 AD Tertullian wondered why the Christians were so willing to dilute their beliefs with pagan superstitions. “Oh, how much more faithful are the heathen to their religion,” he wrote.


CHRISTMAS TRADITIONS: The shocking truth

MISTLETOE: Has no significance. It’s an ancient Druid fertility symbol, and people used to do a lot more than just be kissed under it.

HOLLY: Supposedly something to do with Christ’s crown of thorns, but in fact a lot more to do with the god Saturn and the old pagan Holly King.

CHRISTMAS TREES:  Evergreen trees were a potent symbol of life in the dark winter days. Decorating them was a way of making offerings to the tree’s spirit. The Bible calls it ‘heathen’ (Jeremiah, chapter 10m verses 1-5).

PRESENTS: From the Roman feast of Saturnalia, integrated into Xmas in 375 AD when the Church first set Christ’s birth as December 25th.

YULE LOGS: a Scandinavian traditions, where an oak log was kept burning for 12 days, and a piece of it saved to light the next year’s log. A good luck charm. ‘Yule’ is named after Utlr, the Norse god of winter.

BOOZE: The old Greeks celebrated the death and rebirth of Dionysus, the god of alcohol and wild revelry, for twelve days at the winter solstice. Dionysus’ parents were Zeus and a virgin, and as a baby he had to flee the anger of Hera.. When he was killed by the Titans, he was brought back to life and ascended to Mount Olympus. Remind you of anyone ?

 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[willcowskitz]

Bernhard: That was most interesting, thank you. 

[janice]

Yeah, while those details might be "interesting", lets look at the big picture and look at exactly WHY we have a celebration of sorts.  Every human being was born.  We all came out of a womb and existed as a baby and grew up.  The day that we came out of the womb is our birthday.  We celebrate our birthday once a year.  Jesus was a human.  He was born.  He came out of a womb.  We celebrate his birthday once a year.  It doesn't matter if he was actually born in the spring, summer, whenever.  The fact is, Jesus was BORN, so he has a BIRTHDAY.  Now, what is so special about this Jesus person that we celebrate his birthday 2000 years after the fact?  It is because Jesus is God incarnate, and that is what Christians believe and celebrate.  We celebrate it, because Jesus was born with the purpose of dying for the sins of those who seek to be reconciled with God, so that they might live for all of eternity.  We are all separated from God forever because God is so holy and just that no sin can exist in His presence.  BUT He loves each one of us, and longs for us to spend eternity with Him, rather than apart from Him.  Jesus was the atoning sacrafice for our sins.  That is why we celebrate this birthday.  God's free gift to you is Jesus' death (which was the payment for sins) which, if you choose to accept this gift (you can alway reject this gift, if you like, just as other gifts can be refused).  And this is where FAITH comes into the picture. 

[willcowskitz]

Hehheh, but what about this particular interesting point:

"Instead it (Christmas) was a way of twisting old beliefs to Christianity’s advantage, making more converts for what was then the new faith on the block."

 

[wynnbear]

"Instead it (Christmas) was a way of twisting old beliefs to Christianity’s advantage, making more converts for what was then the new faith on the block."

 

Hey Bernhard,

Be sure to do this same type of post for Easter: 

Eggs, and chicks and bunnies, Oh my!   

[janice]

Hehheh, but what about this particular interesting point:

"Instead it (Christmas) was a way of twisting old beliefs to Christianity’s advantage, making more converts for what was then the new faith on the block."

 

Yeah, it's a quote used by pagans to explain away the story of Christ.  Did you read all of my post?  I said that Jesus was a human, just like each one of us are human.  Therefore, each one of us has a birthday.  Jesus, too, has a birthday.  Last time I checked, people celebrate birthdays.

btw--Christians don't become Christians merely because Jesus was BORN.  They become believers because of Christ's DEATH, and they realize that Jesus was and is their atoning sacrafice.  That Jesus' death paid the price for their sins so that they might live forever, instead of spending eternity apart from God, alone, and in torment.  I didn't say it--I'm just summarizing the Bible.

[willcowskitz]

According to the article that Bernhard contributed, it is vice versa: Making Jesus' "birthday" celebration overlap with the ancient solstice festival of "rebirth of the sun" was merely a mental crusade to convert these pagans into Christian religion; since there already existed a tradition with strong roots, it was thought "efficient" to abuse it by turning it into something that it originally was not. Yes I did read your post, you were punctuating a lot meaningless words (to me, that is, at least), and I couldn't quite understand what your real point was. Summing it up, it looks something like BORN, BIRTH, JESUS, DEATH, FAITH. I know I'm a human, I know Jesus was a human, but the whole point here is the hypocricy behind the *Christ*mas traditions - yet you totally ignore this and go on about Jesus and his birth.

I'm also fully aware that Jesus died for our sins, and I've always wondered where do the christians get their energy to repeat all this mumbojumbo over and over again - it has zero meaning to me coming out of one of your mouths. I am aware of *a* god, it doesn't necessarily look the same as your god, but I have a relationship with this god and I'm pretty sure, having read a lot of "religious" (mind you, these 'religious' people are obviously more than often spiritually impotent) people's posts, even on this forum, that these people would be quick to judge this relationship between me and the God that I EXPERIENCE (how many of fundamentalist christians can really say they're conscious of an entity of higher kind, and not just AFRAID OF THE POSSIBILITY THAT THERE IS ONE THAT COULD PUNISH YOU). So please, keep this Jesus stuff to yourself, and speak of spiritual matters in a more general manner, because everytime somebody starts a preach on Jesus, it creates more and more distance between me and him. Jesus wanted us to find the God and choose to follow him, whereas the catholic church is satisfied if we follow the doctrine and fund this ancient, parasitic institution. Spirituality and ethics don't require doctrine - doctrine is for those who have no sense of ethics or moral and need to be guided to right direction. Doctrines are not for thinkers, and the more I hear christians repeat and repeat their dogmatic conceptions on life, more certain I am that Jesus' heart would cry tears of blood if he ever was to witness the current state of christianity.

[janice]

I've always wondered where do the christians get their energy to repeat all this mumbojumbo over and over again

I get my energy from knowing that Jesus' (sorry that I have to mention his name) death was the payment for my sins, making me justified in the sight of God.  And I know that I will spend eternity with Him because of this.  Does this mean that I can keep on deliberately sinning against God?  NO!!  So this is where I get my energy.

(mind you, these 'religious' people are obviously more than often spiritually impotent) 

I have to agree with you on this one!  Jesus depised the "religious" people of his day.

that these people would be quick to judge this relationship between me and the God that I EXPERIENCE 

I don't feel like I "judge" anybody.  I can't.  I have no authority to.  Only God can "judge".

how many of fundamentalist christians can really say they're conscious of an entity of higher kind 

huh?

  AFRAID OF THE POSSIBILITY THAT THERE IS ONE THAT COULD PUNISH YOU).

The Bible portrays God as a God of LOVE.  And I am drawn to that love.  But for God to be God, he must be perfect in all ways, so this means that He is perfect in his love, and also perfect in his justice.  Therefore, sin cannot go unpunished.

So please, keep this Jesus stuff to yourself

Sorry if you don't like hearing about Jesus.  Please feel free to skip my posts, then.

  because everytime somebody starts a preach on Jesus, it creates more and more distance between me and him.

My feelings aren't hurt, because you don't even know me.  Jesus even said himself that he didn't come to this earth to bring peace, he came to bring conviction.  Conviction of sin and a need for God, plus the fact that he himself was/is the way to God.

whereas the catholic church is satisfied if we follow the doctrine and fund this ancient, parasitic institution

I have to agree with you on this one!  But please realize that Jesus does not equal the Catholic church (I'm not even Catholic)  Jesus is a person.  Jesus died for our sins and paved the way to God.  No church can do that.

more certain I am that Jesus' heart would cry tears of blood if he ever was to witness the current state of christianity.

You could possibly be right.

[allchopin]

Bernhard, your article my be slightly erroneous:
"Rumor has it that Santa's red-and-white suit was an invention of the Coca-Cola Company to promote the colors of its popular soft-drink label. In 1931 the company did hire an artist to create depictions of Santa drinking Coke, and those images became very popular--so much so that Coca-Cola takes credit for inventing Santa as we know him today. However, there is plenty of evidence to the contrary, including a holiday greeting card dating back to 1885 with an image of a jolly, bearded, red-suited Santa; and a 1927 description from The New York Times:

A standardized Santa Claus appears to New York children. Height, weight, stature are almost exactly standardized, as are the red garments, the hood and the white whiskers. The pack full of toys, ruddy cheeks and nose, bushy eyebrows and a jolly, paunchy effect are also inevitable parts of the requisite make-up."

[willcowskitz]

Some sources say that the thing about Coca Cola "inventing" Santa Claus as we know it is an urban legend or misconception of some sort, so I'm not sure about that either. "The original" traditional (Finnish/Nordic(?)) Santa is said to have dressed in green and blue, or gray, until Coca Cola painted it in their own colours. There's so much misinformation though, that it is hard to pick out the truth.


Janice:

Yes I do realize the difference between Jesus and his teachings and the catholic church, I was comparing them in the same sentence in the part that you only partially quoted.

By the "consciousness of a higher entity" I meant feeling the presence of God. There is a difference between having faith and having awareness, and I am very skeptic about average christians' level of awareness. However, if I've not misunderstood, faith is enough, so there is nothing to "criticize" in itself. But there is something to criticize in how they nonetheless seem to think they can teach me about this God's essence, no matter how little actual view they've gained into it. This is when they start quoting the Bible without any rational relations to the actual debatable subject or detail, "quantity over quality" as its said. Now I'm not delusional enough to think I have "seen the God", but I am certain that I've begun to understand this concept at some point of my life, probably catalyzed by some hardship in life. However my perspective is limited, and I cannot defy others their beliefs and religions or the basis for them, which is exactly the kind of action that christians continuously execute against people with "pagan" beliefs. If I cross this line where the limits of my view end, to no-man's-land of objective reality that we have no real touch to, I might as well be considered either delusional or arrogant. It takes no effort from man to expand their inner reality out of bounds and let it grow beyond this line where there is no horizon for reality, but the problematic thing is that there exists an ideology (mind the word) that has in it's sovereignty allowed the practice of such foolishness, and its called Christian fundamentalism. They have granted themselves the right to distinguish concepts within this unreachable area as true or false, eliminating the possibility to let man explore their soul and it's relation to rest of the existence freely. How does this promote spirituality in any way? It doesn't, and obviously it is not the objective of this mass-hypnotic movement. However I do not judge Christians, I judge people who REFUSE TO think, who refuse to grow and develop themselves as they once did when they were children. These people seek groups of people that strengthen their old beliefs and conceptions, they want to build a strong base for their egos and create a sense of security on expense of true development - spiritual and emotional. In a world full of these people, I wouldn't expect anyone sensible to believe in anything but nihilism.

I do have a feeling, that you and I share some same thoughts, but I can't punctuate enough that if one wants to evolve they must be ready to let whole structures to collapse if it is necessary for having a base for new, more complete ideas.

[Bob]

Bernhard, do you have the periodical info for that article?  How credible is the author?  Interesting ideas though.

[bernhard]

Bernhard, do you have the periodical info for that article?  How credible is the author?  Interesting ideas though.

Sorry, Bob, I copied the article but not the magazine. It might have been theChrsitmas edition of Fortean Times around 1997 or 1998. But then again maybe not.

In any case here are the true origins of another Christmas tradition:

One particular Christmas season a long time ago, Santa was getting ready for his annual trip, but there were problems everywhere. Four of his elves got sick, and the trainee elves did not produce the toys as fast as the regular ones so Santa was beginning to feel the pressure of being behind schedule.

Then Mrs. Claus told Santa that her mom was coming to visit. This stressed Santa even more.

When he went to harness the reindeer, he found that three of them were about to give birth and two had jumped the fence and were out, heaven knows where. More stress.
Then when he began to load the sleigh one of the boards cracked, and the toy bag fell to the ground and scattered the toys.

So, frustrated, Santa went into the house for a cup of apple cider and a shot of rum. When he went to the cupboard, he discovered that the elves had hidden the liquor, and there was nothing to drink. In his frustration, he accidentally dropped the cider pot, and it broke into hundreds of little pieces all over the kitchen floor. He went to get the broom and found that mice had eaten the straw end of the broom. Just then the doorbell rang, and irritable Santa trudged to the door. He opened the door, and there was a little angel with a great big Christmas tree.

The angel said, very cheerfully, "Merry Christmas, Santa. Isn't it  a lovely day? I have a beautiful tree for you.  Where would you like me to stick it?"

Thus began the tradition of the little angel on top of the Christmas tree.

 

Merry Christmas to all,
Bernhard.

[teachum]

Hey Bernhard,

Be sure to do this same type of post for Easter: 

Eggs, and chicks and bunnies, Oh my!   

Wynnbear -Those kinds of questions were exactly what used to get me in trouble as a kid when my parents sent me to Sunday School.  Teacher - what does the word Easter mean?  Never mind - sit down and shut up (says teacher).  Teacher what do eggs and Easter Bunnies have to do with ......? Sit down and shut up little girl, Says teacher. 

I quit asking questions decided they didn't know the answers and made  up my own mind. 

[Floristan]

Take a look here, Torvald:

https://www.twilightbridge.com/hobbies/festivals/christmas/yule/origin.htm

Very interesting possible connection to the Norse word for "wheel."

[Bob]

Sorry, Bob, I copied the article...

...the little angel on top of the Christmas tree.[/i]

 

Merry Christmas to all,
Bernhard.

lol.... good one Bernard!

I heard all the reindeer were female too.  Somewhere.  I think it was a big deal last year in the news.  Ah yes.... Only female reindeer have antlers in the winter time.  I think that was the idea (and I guess female reindeer can actually have antlers too).  That means Rudolph was a girl.