Mephisto waltz 1 - how to solve leaps part?

[paquinho]

Hi, i'm studying this waltz and im needing some help with the part where right hands does the octave leaps, is there some digitation for the left hand to not miss the bass? My right hand actually works well but my left it's costing me much more, specially when the pinky finger has to play alone the bass and the come back to the octave.  :/. If any of you studied it maybe can give me a hand, thanks in advance!

[liszt1022]

Here?

[paquinho]

Yes, in that part

[liszt1022]

If you're concerned with the LH, well that's as friendly as Liszt's leaps get. Any time it's over an octave it's on a black key. It's gonna have to be 5 each time. Just try not to use your 5 anywhere else.
The less you need to use your eyes, the better. Since both hands are leaping it's a case where if you practice hands alone but don't try to get your eyes off your hands, it's gonna be real problematic to play them together. While you work on just RH or just LH, try with your eyes closed (you'll probably have to go slower.) After that's more comfortable, start to build it up with both hands at speed one beat at a time.

[kawai_cs]

I haven't played this waltz but other piece with big leaps recently. What helped me was practicing the part with leaps slowly, hands separate and hands together - always much slower than I could play the rest of the piece. Doing this constantly, every day, helped.  Even when I was not practicing this piece in given practice session I would just spend some time practicing only the parts with leaps. Always practicing slowly, not trying to play it at tempo. I find everything must be "in preparation" when I am playing so one has to be ready for the next difficulty, like the leap. That said, I looked for moments when I could quickly glimpse at keyboard where given hand was going to play leaps just shortly before playing the leaps.

[paquinho]

If you're concerned with the LH, well that's as friendly as Liszt's leaps get. Any time it's over an octave it's on a black key. It's gonna have to be 5 each time. Just try not to use your 5 anywhere else.
The less you need to use your eyes, the better. Since both hands are leaping it's a case where if you practice hands alone but don't try to get your eyes off your hands, it's gonna be real problematic to play them together. While you work on just RH or just LH, try with your eyes closed (you'll probably have to go slower.) After that's more comfortable, start to build it up with both hands at speed one beat at a time.

Fine, I already tried some practice with eyes closed but I was not sure if it was a way to get better this part, now that you told me I will try again with more dedication and how you explained, and for the firat part of your comment I didn't understand well what you mean with not to use 5 anywhere else, for example: the E# has to be with the 5 finger, or are you telling me to use 4 on that and only 5 in the C# alone? Maybe I'm not understanding well (i'm from argentina, not so good english speaker). Or are you telling me to use 4th finger in the octave and then 5th in the single note?

I appreciate you comment and thanks for the help!

[paquinho]

I haven't played this waltz but other piece with big leaps recently. What helped me was practicing the part with leaps slowly, hands separate and hands together - always much slower than I could play the rest of the piece. Doing this constantly, every day, helped.  Even when I was not practicing this piece in given practice session I would just spend some time practicing only the parts with leaps. Always practicing slowly, not trying to play it at tempo. I find everything must be "in preparation" when I am playing so one has to be ready for the next difficulty, like the leap. That said, I looked for moments when I could quickly glimpse at keyboard where given hand was going to play leaps just shortly before playing the leaps.

I normally study it slow, but also later in real speed, maybe I should focus more time in the slow part like you said, I find this passage to become very diferent when playing it fast than when slow, I mean the gestures of the hands are note exactly the same, and that told my instinct to not spend all the time with slow practice, but I will give a try of your approach.
Thanka for your comment!

[liszt1022]

I mean don't use the 5 in the LH chords, just the octaves and single notes. E# with 5 is fine.

[kawai_cs]

I mean the gestures of the hands are note exactly the same, and that told my instinct to not spend all the time with slow practice, but I will give a try of your approach.
Thanka for your comment!

I think your movements should always be the smallest possible and only produced with the least required effort to achieve your aim. Once you know how the movements are at fast speed - you practice like this in slow speed. In case of leaps it means fast, precise lateral movement close to the keyboard putting the fingers in the positions before they touch the keys of the chord. Do not rise you hands high above the keyboard making an arch - just stay as close as possible and make only a lateral movement. You are practicing slowly but you avoid unnecessary movements and you use the extra time before playing each note of the leap to feel the keys under your fingers and to put the fingers in position before they play the chord. You learn that way the positions and distances between chords.
Also, I find it helpful to find a moment when I will be able to have a quick glimpse at keyboard for each hand. I am not sure if I am making it clear. I mean, you will probably not be able to play the whole part with eyes closed - you must therefore find moments for each hand when you can look at the keys so you can estimate the distances. It is good to find those moments and practice only looking at the keyboard in those moments when practicing slowly, too.
I am not a teacher, but this is how it works for me.

[paquinho]

Fine, I understood both comements, I will try both suggestions and see how it works, thanks to both for sharing the advices!

[liszt1022]

To clarify my own comments following kawai's, I was suggesting eyes-closed not with the goal of playing everything hands together without looking, but to work on less reliance on your eyes. K is right that you also need to work out exactly where to look.

[pts1]

There is a simple "trick" to this, which is keep your elbows to your side and play the LH with a slight "curvilinear" movement.

If you move your upper arm, i.e. the entire arm laterally, it just slows you way down and not only is it unnecessary and more difficult but much less accurate.

Similar with the right hand... I play the first note in the right hand with the index finger then the higher octave. This enables you to start the single note with the hand "left facing", then move the hand slightly to "right facing" to play the upper octave. This combined with slight forearm rotation and a good bit of the distance and difficulty is subdued. It sounds a bit counter intuitive but its much easier than playing the first note with the thumb!

The whole point is to avoid "leaping" or "jumping" and instead do geometric curves using the forearm's natural ability to rotate. 

[paquinho]

There is a simple "trick" to this, which is keep your elbows to your side and play the LH with a slight "curvilinear" movement.

If you move your upper arm, i.e. the entire arm laterally, it just slows you way down and not only is it unnecessary and more difficult but much less accurate.

Similar with the right hand... I play the first note in the right hand with the index finger then the higher octave. This enables you to start the single note with the hand "left facing", then move the hand slightly to "right facing" to play the upper octave. This combined with slight forearm rotation and a good bit of the distance and difficulty is subdued. It sounds a bit counter intuitive but its much easier than playing the first note with the thumb!

The whole point is to avoid "leaping" or "jumping" and instead do geometric curves using the forearm's natural ability to rotate. 

That trick i'm actually doing it and like i said my problem right now is in the left hand, specially in the bass note that plays alone and not octaved (the C3# and later the D#). I think part of the problem is I had a bad edition where it was written octaves in both times, and that was more easy, now I feel I have a wrong gesture to play always and octave in the bass also when I know I have to play one note alone. But I understand the movement you propose and I will try too, everything adds and I'm looking for a solution, any one. Thanks for the advice!