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Topic: Chopin Op.10 No.2  (Read 3216 times)

Offline bravuraoctaves

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Chopin Op.10 No.2
on: December 18, 2004, 06:46:31 PM
I was playing around with it,  thought it would be impossible, but after 2 hours, got half page up to speed and even. Considering this, would it be wise to continue?

Offline anda

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Re: Chopin Op.10 No.2
Reply #1 on: December 18, 2004, 07:06:48 PM
it's one of the easiest chopin etudes.

yes, keep going on, but not like this.

Offline bravuraoctaves

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Re: Chopin Op.10 No.2
Reply #2 on: December 18, 2004, 07:07:34 PM
"not like this" ???

Please tell me more??

Offline anda

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Re: Chopin Op.10 No.2
Reply #3 on: December 18, 2004, 07:19:45 PM
you said 2 h. what exactly did you do in these hours (and please don't tell me you practiced 1/2 a page).

by the way, how many bars is "1/2 page"? 16? (that means 8+ same 8 repeated :) )

Offline bravuraoctaves

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Re: Chopin Op.10 No.2
Reply #4 on: December 18, 2004, 09:04:28 PM
I dabbled at it for about five minutes a day after practicing my exam stuff.

Actually that means I have a lot more done as some of the bars eg. 1-2 are repeated quite a few times at different points in the piece.

I am very good at wasteing time!!!!!!

Offline pianiststrongbad

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Re: Chopin Op.10 No.2
Reply #5 on: December 18, 2004, 09:24:32 PM
I have to disagree with this being one of the easier etudes.  In my opinion this is one of the harder ones.  I see nothing wrong with using your free time playing etudes, I do the same thing.

Offline bernhard

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The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline bravuraoctaves

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Re: Chopin Op.10 No.2
Reply #7 on: December 19, 2004, 01:36:33 PM
I am experiencing a strange thing when I practice.  Last night I could play it without tension, but these two days,  it seems that my technique has changed unconciously for the worse.  I can only play it at 120BPM and I seem to get tired at the end OF THE 8 BARS. What is happening?

It happened also last time with Op.10 no.1 where I learned the first two pages up to speed in half an hour, with good technique, no tension etc.  but all the next times I played those two pages, my technique had warped,  and I found I was causing damage to my wrist, which was so bad it forced me to give up the piece.

What is going on?? I seem to get a segment perfected, then suddenly the next day,    I wake up to find my technique has gone funny.

(PS: I practice at full speed HT. With some pieces  I have a second phase in which I practice the piece agan slowly (I did this with Op.10 no.2 and some Bach fugues).  I practice in 5 min blocks, at the end of each block I move on to a different piece. After 20 mins I have a break. I practice 1 hour a day. )

Offline anda

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Re: Chopin Op.10 No.2
Reply #8 on: December 19, 2004, 02:33:16 PM
sorry, sorry - that's what happens when you start giving (stoopid) advice at 2 am after 16 hours of work! i was talking about op. 25 no.2  :-\

as for both op. 10 no.1 and no.2: these are both endurance etudes (especially no.1), since they rely completely upon wrist&arm movements. and no.1 is easier - i know many of you will disagree with me, especially since no.1 is way longer - but it's almost completely written in ff! with no.2, you also  have to suspend your arm weight for the most part of the time.

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(PS: I practice at full speed HT. With some pieces  I have a second phase in which I practice the piece agan slowly (I did this with Op.10 no.2 and some Bach fugues).  I practice in 5 min blocks, at the end of each block I move on to a different piece. After 20 mins I have a break. I practice 1 hour a day. )

and can you perfect a work practicing this way? i could never. i practice in 30-60 min blocks (depending on how i feel - i take breaks when i feel i need to), and i always practice at least 1 hour/day the most demanding work in my repertoire.

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I am experiencing a strange thing when I practice.  Last night I could play it without tension, but these two days,  it seems that my technique has changed unconciously for the worse.  I can only play it at 120BPM and I seem to get tired at the end OF THE 8 BARS. What is happening?

It happened also last time with Op.10 no.1 where I learned the first two pages up to speed in half an hour, with good technique, no tension etc.  but all the next times I played those two pages, my technique had warped,  and I found I was causing damage to my wrist, which was so bad it forced me to give up the piece.

What is going on?? I seem to get a segment perfected, then suddenly the next day,    I wake up to find my technique has gone funny.

i am a fast learner too, and my teacher used to "curse" me: "you, fast learners, you think you can learn a work AND get it to tempo in a matter of hours and still think this is ok!"

based on what he used to tell me - and on my personal experience: the fast learners are the most superficial category of musicians. it takes a real mature one to know how to use this "gift" and turn it into an advantage.

what you (most probably do) is: you get the work memorized and up to tempo TOO FAST and now, when you play the work you focus on "playing the score" (meaning notes, dynamics, etc) and not on playing the piano. especially when you're dealing with technically challenging works, you have to give yourself some time to really memorize the work - not just superficial learning.

one more thing about fast learners: actually one question: did it ever happen to you that you learned a work in a matter of minutes/hours, then didn't have a chance to practice it over the few days and then found that you have completely forgotten it? (i had to learn the great gate of kiev 5 times over a 6 weeks period cause i was learning it in 1/2 hour, then the next time - which was sometimes the next week - i got a chance to practice i had completely forgotten it!)

so much for fast learners  ::)

Offline bravuraoctaves

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Re: Chopin Op.10 No.2
Reply #9 on: December 19, 2004, 03:34:17 PM
I think fast learning is the problem.  I am learning piano and am school, so that doesn't give me a lot of time.

I once learned the first page of a movement of a Beethoven sonata. Then I thought, because I thought I had learned it, I gave it barely any more attention during the week. When it came to my lesson, horrors of horrors, I had found I had forgotton it, and was more or less forced to sight-read it!!!

So how do I use this "skill" to my advantage? Do I need practice the piece every day from scratch instead of trying to play it at the right tempo?

Offline anda

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Re: Chopin Op.10 No.2
Reply #10 on: December 19, 2004, 03:56:08 PM
depends on the work. however, as general principles:

don't jump to "playing in tempo" right away, even if you can. once a day is more than enough for playing in tempo , and should be done after you have practiced the work in slow motion for a while.

don't give up the score as soon as you've memorized it! even if you know it, keep practicing with the score.

basically: for any new work there are many things you have to focus on: musical aspects (such as the quality of the sound, dynamics, etc); technical means of realizing these (such as movements, paying attention to the role played by each segment of your pianistic aparatus); and feed-back sent by your ear and by your hands (i tell my students: your best teachers are your ears and your arms, just listen to what they tell you!). and all these cannot be done anyway else but by practicing slowly.

once your hands know exactly what to do, your ear knows exactly what  kind of sound it shoud request for each note, and you have coordinated the anticipation of the sound with the physical realization and with the feed-back, then you can say you are playing the work.

but the most important advice i can give you is "don't be superficial"! and i think you will know exactly how to turn your good memory and your good fingers (am i right, are you relying most on your fast fingers?) to work for you.

best luck


Offline bravuraoctaves

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Re: Chopin Op.10 No.2
Reply #11 on: December 21, 2004, 06:31:05 PM
This piece is teaching me a lot. All learning at first is superficial.  What actually I was doing was I was believing that I had perfected a segment, when I had only begun.

I'm practicing it the chords separately from the chromatic scales.

I must ask a question: When I play the bits I know, chromatic scales nd all, it feels like a totally different piece - different from all the separate components. I wonder if there are any other methods. which may be more efficient. The method I am using so far is pretty good, but I'm wondering if there are any different approaches that pianists here have tried.
 

Offline anda

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Re: Chopin Op.10 No.2
Reply #12 on: December 21, 2004, 07:12:31 PM
I'm practicing it the chords separately from the chromatic scales.

i never did - i prefered practicing all together.

Quote
I must ask a question: When I play the bits I know, chromatic scales nd all, it feels like a totally different piece - different from all the separate components. I wonder if there are any other methods. which may be more efficient. The method I am using so far is pretty good, but I'm wondering if there are any different approaches that pianists here have tried.

i remember the method i used (that was very many years ago, so i don't remember details) was memorizing at 1/2 tempo focusing on hand relaxation and playing the chords very staccato. then, once i felt sure it was well learned (i prefer learning everything right from the start - dynamics, agogica, even hand movements - i found it saves time), i gradually raised the tempo - using many intermediate tempos and playing more than once in each tempo, still focusing on relaxation.

what to pay attention to (what can help):
1. the elbow and the arm - they can help you a great deal if they move horizontally carying the fingers (placing them exactly on the right keys) or they can be a great burden if they let themselves be carried by the fingers.
2. the chords - you can use them to give you a short little impulse that can carry you all the way to the next chord (but this increases the risk for accents appearing every 4th note, so you need to pay extra-attention). anyway, play these chords like pulling them out of the piano (upward instead of downward)
3. little or no pedal at all (if you can). i only used it scarcely for the last 8-bar passage right before the reappearence of the theme
4. a tip: at the end of the 4th bar, the left hand isn't playing anything. it can take over the 2-notes out of the chromatic line from the right hand. therefore, the right hand can use a comfortable fingering for the last two beats of the bar. the event reapears.

anyway, it should be easier for you - i had to play just about all chromatic passages only with fingers #4 and #5, so if you can also use #3 it shouldn't be such a problem.

hope some of this helps,
best luck
 

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