beethoven moonlight 3rd tempo

[echoyjeff222]

Hi all,

I'm wondering what tempo I should aim toward for this movement. I've been practicing it for the last 8 months or so (took a 2 month hiatus, been practicing it more seriously in the last few weeks), and I have finally got it up to a decent speed. I'm currently playing around 140 bpm apprx. without the metronome. I'm not sure how to practice from here on forward. I just put the tempo on 145 and tried practicing along. I fell behind at a few spots, mostly because I relax the tempo at points throughout the piece. I listened to some recordings, and they're all decently fast.

This is a very tough piece, so I'm not sure how to proceed. Does anyone have some tips on where to take the tempo? Master it at around 135-140? A little faster? Thanks.

[josh93248]

Personally I feel you should let your own musical senses guide your tempo choices. This leads to more variety of interpretation. In my opinion it is not a matter of 'BPM' but rather what feels authentic ro you and, in this particular case, exciting and intense. Just experiment with some snippets of it, or forgive yourself if you stuff up and play REALLY fast, just to gauge what is TOO fast (rushed, too blurred) then adjust it and experiment until you find the tempo you like the sound of best. But others may prefer you to be more accurate and rigorous, it's up to you what to do really, tempo is the domain of the performer... or should be anyway.

BTW if you're more of an amateur, don't sweat taking the piece a little slower than normal IF you can justify this musically in your own way.

[immortalbeloved]

Josh, I just clicked on your youtube channel: great work man, those Bach pieces sounded wonderful!

[dcstudio]

students tend to think faster is better on this one...I was guilty of that myself.

it has to be clear---every one of those 16th notes have to be smooth and even or its 7 minutes of dreadful mush.  

it's tough but you really have to think of this as not being hard... because with exception of a few places it's pretty straightforward...not too harmonically advanced...and pretty predictable---it's still an awesome piece of music----but it if you keep telling yourself it's hard then your hands will make it harder than it is.   You will expend to much energy by stiffening your hands and pushing too much then the burn sets in and you are done.  This one seems to be all about managing your hands for endurance...  there are sections of this that don't look much harder than say Mozart's c major sonata... and they aren't....but students tend to play it like it is hard...and it gets heavy sounding and clangs...  Ludwig put in a couple of very strategic resting points...use them...  relax your hands completely while you are holding those chords down...



a light touch works for me on this one...

this is me --  just so you know I did play this one, too.  

try setting your metronome to click on the 2nd and 4th beats of the measure and practice accenting those beats--then go back and play the normal rhythm--sometimes that really helps to get your fingers used to the motion--and your brain isn't trying to tell you what it "should" sound like--so it's easier to get it under your fingers that way

[josh93248]

Josh, I just clicked on your youtube channel: great work man, those Bach pieces sounded wonderful!

Wow, thanks a lot. I'm just working on very basic Bach at the moment, but you can see that even the entry level stuff has quality. There's a lot more to come, I plan to record the majority of the Little preludes and all the two part inventions over time, then the Sinfonias and then I'll keep progressing through it. Good luck with your own Bach and thanks again

[transitional]

How am I having an easier time on the Appassionata 1st? Is it  a matter of speed? - I'm playing it at this speed right now and am having an easy time with it. https://musescore.com/classicman/scores/80461

Meanwhile, for the moonlight 3rd, I can only play decently at 70% this speed: https://musescore.com/classicman/scores/33715 That's probably only "allegro agitato". Do you think this has to do with the fact that many people simply play it like a technical exercise? I try to bring out the music, but I can never, ever, not make a mistake on any page at 100% tempo. Did Beethoven possibly intend it to be played slower, similar to the situation of Schumann's Kinderszenen? After all, the same anger is present if it is slower and interpreted well.

[lelle]

Meanwhile, for the moonlight 3rd, I can only play decently at 70% this speed: https://musescore.com/classicman/scores/33715 That's probably only "allegro agitato". Do you think this has to do with the fact that many people simply play it like a technical exercise?

Do I think that you can only play this decently at 70% speed because other people simply play it like a technical exercise? No

I try to bring out the music, but I can never, ever, not make a mistake on any page at 100% tempo. Did Beethoven possibly intend it to be played slower, similar to the situation of Schumann's Kinderszenen?

I think he wanted presto, but I would also not be super concerned if you make an occasional mistake. Pros who practice 4-8 hours a day on a foundation of the finest, most rigorous training might not make mistakes (some of them still do), but if you are not a pro, you'll likely make some. It depends on what kind of mistakes of course, if it's a total mess because it's beyond you technically, well, the issue is that you are trying to play something that's beyond you technically

[transitional]

I think he wanted presto, but I would also not be super concerned if you make an occasional mistake. Pros who practice 4-8 hours a day on a foundation of the finest, most rigorous training might not make mistakes (some of them still do), but if you are not a pro, you'll likely make some. It depends on what kind of mistakes of course, if it's a total mess because it's beyond you technically, well, the issue is that you are trying to play something that's beyond you technically

Thanks, that's reassuring! I'm just confused why the Appassionata 1st (pretty easy) is considered "harder" when the Moonlight 3rd (one of the hardest things I've ever played, maybe more than the hungarian rhapsody 2) is like 5x as technically demanding for me? Am I doing something wrong? Or is the moonlight 3rd just not for me?

It looks so simple. When I sit down and try to play it at presto, though, my hands just get all jumbled up. I know all the patterns. I just can't do them 

[lelle]

Thanks, that's reassuring! I'm just confused why the Appassionata 1st (pretty easy) is considered "harder" when the Moonlight 3rd (one of the hardest things I've ever played, maybe more than the hungarian rhapsody 2) is like 5x as technically demanding for me? Am I doing something wrong? Or is the moonlight 3rd just not for me?

It looks so simple. When I sit down and try to play it at presto, though, my hands just get all jumbled up. I know all the patterns. I just can't do them 

On thing that can be confusing is that different people mean different things when they say something is "hard". Pianists who have received solid training in the craft i.e. their technique is in order, won't have any difficulty with playing the notes. If Appassionata and Moonlight both feel fairly easy in terms of mechanics (which they will to someone who can play all the Chopin Etudes and all the Liszt transcendental Etudes with ease), the "hard" part will be how to hold them together musically in a convincing interpretation. In that regard, Appasionata 1st movement is much harder than Moonlight 3rd.

[transitional]

On thing that can be confusing is that different people mean different things when they say something is "hard". Pianists who have received solid training in the craft i.e. their technique is in order, won't have any difficulty with playing the notes. If Appassionata and Moonlight both feel fairly easy in terms of mechanics (which they will to someone who can play all the Chopin Etudes and all the Liszt transcendental Etudes with ease), the "hard" part will be how to hold them together musically in a convincing interpretation. In that regard, Appasionata 1st movement is much harder than Moonlight 3rd.

Ahh, thanks.

This is the explanation of everything I've been wondering:
- Why Op. 101 is "harder" than The Tempest
- Why Ballade No. 1 is "harder" than the Fantaisie Impromptu
- Why Jeux d'eau is "harder" than Sonatine
- Why the C Major P&F is "harder" than the D Major or C Minor (book 1)
- Why Rach Prelude in G Minor is "harder" than Polichinelle
The list goes on.

Musicality in difficulty is overrated. I mean, who has time to practice the entire hanon book in a day? (or the equivalent of other methods)

also, sorry for this...
2000th view!!!