Thoughts on new narrower ergonomic piano keyboards to improve playing.

[outin]

... OP had an agenda.

Now what's wrong with that?
And he isn't really the only one here

[keypeg]

I am interested in the topic, not the reason that the topic might have been posted.  Hopefully we are all astute enough to overlook such things and their influence, if and when they occur.  I am not going to run off and buy a narrower keyboard just because I read about it here - for one thing because I don't have that kind of money - and in the meantime the ideas are very interesting.

[louispodesta]

My point is that, when I posted my news story, I told everyone what my goal was.  I did not couch it in terms of: hey, you guys and gals, what do you think of this?

This OP was schooled to post this question, just as 8 years ago, another OP (AGAIN!) has posted the same interrogatory regarding the use of the 4th and 5th fingers together when playing an octave on a black key:  Re:  the final post under the "Performance Forum:  "I'm sure the person ("pecnilart3") who posted this 8 years ago will benefit from your opinion."

Either we are to believe the genuiness of the OP, "Moderator," or we are not.  Posting notices that say:  another response was posted before you could finish yours is a very bad joke, when you allow OP's to perpetrate a fraud.

[outin]

^ Aren't you underestimating the readers here a bit? At least us adults should be able to be crtitical towards what we read so it's no big deal...After all the OP is not promoting anything harmful or directing us to malicious websites...the worst thing that can happen is that someone wil investigate further and maybe even look into getting one of those keyboards

[laus1]

 I just sparked a discussion about a future solution to an issue There is no conspiracy going on !  

From all I can read (and maybe I repeat something not new or even better...out of place ehehehe)...

The acoustic piano has always been a wonderful instrument to practice the finger techniques and to make wonderful natural sounds. There were famous pianists who bought grand pianos for their concerts with the keys measured to their fingers and hand and even the touch could be changed.

For in my opinion, I think modernisation of old things is always fun and good. I don't think in issues, I think in pleasure, fun and playful thingies.

If you can play the piano, you can play anything with keys and practise on as many different ones as possible. It helps you to adapt and improvise your finger and play techniques. At least, for me it is very helpful and fun.

How big or moderate or small your hands are...there is always a way, but if there isn't...well, you need to skip that keyboard or piano and try something different that helps.

I like to be allround as a pianist. So I can only support that technologie and other ways of playing the keys, acoustic or electronically...is a good thingy and a real treat for me!

[timothy42b]

I am interested in the topic, not the reason that the topic might have been posted. 

.  I am not going to run off and buy a narrower keyboard just because I read about it here - for one thing because I don't have that kind of money - and in the meantime the ideas are very interesting.

I found it interesting too.  Our goal (for most of us) is to make music, not play the piano.  The piano is a tool, and if it can be improved that would be worth considering.

Also we could realize that an ever increasing number of us play digitals, which are designed to have the benefits but also the drawbacks of the mechanical piano.  I learned to type on a mechanical typewriter, as did everybody of my generation, but I'm three times as fast on a computer keyboard.  Does anybody want to go back to that?  No, because the purpose isn't to type, but to interact and communicate.  There are huge untapped possibilities with digitals.

[louispodesta]

From all I can read (and maybe I repeat something not new or even better...out of place ehehehe)...

The acoustic piano has always been a wonderful instrument to practice the finger techniques and to make wonderful natural sounds. There were famous pianists who bought grand pianos for their concerts with the keys measured to their fingers and hand and even the touch could be changed.

For in my opinion, I think modernisation of old things is always fun and good. I don't think in issues, I think in pleasure, fun and playful thingies.

If you can play the piano, you can play anything with keys and practise on as many different ones as possible. It helps you to adapt and improvise your finger and play techniques. At least, for me it is very helpful and fun.

How big or moderate or small your hands are...there is always a way, but if there isn't...well, you need to skip that keyboard or piano and try something different that helps.

I like to be allround as a pianist. So I can only support that technologie and other ways of playing the keys, acoustic or electronically...is a good thingy and a real treat for me!

Please name some of these pianists.  I have only cited Josef Hoffman, which has been confirmed through personal experience by a concert artist.

It is very important, and that includes my thesis, that those who participate in this website "KNOW" how the real world worked in the early days of piano performance.  As an un-named very famous source related to me an email, at the time of Beethoven, every major city in Europe had at least 40 piano factories.

Therefore, if you, as this post has suggested, were a well-known performer, you could get a particular piano manufacturer to tweak an instrument any way you wanted.  They did this, of course, as of today (Steinway/Yamaha), to promote their Brand.

[adodd81802]

[louispodesta]

Thank you for your groundbreaking post.

You, of course, are well aware of this instrument, for which J.S. Bach composed:
https://www.baroquemusic.org/barluthp.html

[jasper14]

 Noticed that Clavier Companion Magazine, have published a cover article on ergonomically scaled piano keyboards for the Sept/Oct issue. Interesting front cover comparing the three keyboard sizes !

 https://www.facebook.com/ClavierCompanion

[georgey]

The original question is: "If smaller keyboard sizes were universally accepted and easily available, would any smaller handed pianists consider playing a smaller size or even owning one ??"

The question may imply that you need to have a smaller hand to answer the question.  I have a regular sized hand (I can span a 10th with a stretch).  If I had trouble playing an octave and I was fully grown and smaller keyboard sizes were universally accepted and easily available, I would definately consider playing and owning a smaller size keyboard.  I'm sorry that this is probably not helpful to anyone.  I did enjoy reading the discussions posted here.  Good discussion!

[georgey]

One other thought: I had the opportunity to see Dr. Robert Siemers play Schubert's A major sonata (one of the his last great 3 sonatas) and Bach's Goldberg variations live in Harrisburg PA a few years ago.  Dr. Siemers is under 4 feet tall I'm guessing and can barely span an octave.  He played brilliantly on a full size piano.  I would still consider a smaller sized instrument as mentioned in my last post.

[vansh]

Has anybody mentioned yet that the piano has an almost unique attribute in that the musician does not play on his own instrument when he performs?  If someone regularly plays on his own custom-sized or smaller sized keyboard, and then tries to perform on a piano that has standard width keys, I cannot imagine that he'll instantly adjust.  Everything will feel different.  I once traded violin and viola with a family member who needed to borrow my violin for a week (long story).  Adjusting back to different distances was not instantaneous.  That is my main frame of reference.

As a solution to this, it is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that the action (keys + hammers) can be removed as a single block. See the video for an example:

&t=2m26s

Why can't a music hall simply have different actions for the same piano, each action with different sized keys, and use the action with the preferred key size for a given performer? Since the piano gets tuned before a performance anyways, it should be a relatively small matter for the piano technician to swap out the action at the beginning of the process.

So basically, rather than making a new piano, instead the same piano case and string assembly would be reused, but different-sized keys could be made (with larger/smaller wood blocks on the sides so that it would still fit the same piano case). An issue may be that the hammers will be somewhat diagonal (i.e. not in a straight line with the keys, but the hammer arms in the lower register would be diagonal toward the left, the ones in the upper register would be diagonal toward the right, to line up with the strings), but I don't think that's insurmountable. Then it would be a matter of the performer's choice.

I personally can only reach a 9th by collapsing the bridge of my knuckles, so while it's something I *could* do, it's not something I can do *comfortably*, and I hit the notes in between if it's on the white keys. Thus, my functional reach is more or less limited to an octave. If a piano with a smaller keyboard were available, I wouldn't mind trying it out. It would make some pieces substantially easier in terms of reaching for different notes.

People should keep in mind that the keys are only the interface, and some of their design parameters (such as size) are not intrinsic to the piano itself. It's like a computer keyboard or a car's steering wheel (whose height can be adjusted to suit different drivers). It's almost universally acknowledged that everyone's hands are different, with different finger lengths, finger widths, palm sizes, etc. Why should there be a single size for a keyboard that everybody should adapt to? It's as if everyone had to wear the same size pants or something.

Some people have brought up famous pianists with small hands, but that's somewhat of a red herring. There are shorter people playing basketball too, but being taller is definitely an advantage; according to wikipedia, the average professional basketball player's height is about 6 ft 7 in, which is far outside the norm of the general population:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_in_sports#Basketball

Just because there was a 5 ft 3 in Muggsy Bogues or a 5 ft 5 in Earl Boykins playing professional basketball doesn't mean that the typical person of those heights would be a competitive player.

I don't think it's unreasonable to surmise that if the piano keyboard were scaled to better suit people with different sized hands, then playing piano would become more attractive to a larger segment of the population.

[jasper14]

 Not to mention the entire population of children and majority of women, who have hands to small  for the current 'standard' size!

[georgey]

Last post: "Not to mention the entire population of children and majority of women, who have hands to small  for the current 'standard' size!"

Because there is precedent for smaller sized instruments for children (such as 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 size violins for children), I am in agreement.  This assumes that smaller keyboard sizes were universally accepted and easily available. Of course, this is just my opinion.  I can see both sides of the argument for children, though.

[keypeg]

I do wish violin were kept out of it.  They are totally different kinds of instruments.  A child trying to play a 4/4 size violin literally could not reach where he needs to place his hand.  You can move around on a piano.  The violin rests on your collarbone, and the arm only goes so far.  Piano considerations should be about piano.  I think a different sized instrument might be a good idea if it helps people, and if they can easily adapt to regular size pianos for performing or playing away from home.  But it should not be based on entirely different instruments.

[michael_c]

As a solution to this, it is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that the action (keys + hammers) can be removed as a single block. See the video for an example:

&t=2m26s

Why can't a music hall simply have different actions for the same piano, each action with different sized keys, and use the action with the preferred key size for a given performer? Since the piano gets tuned before a performance anyways, it should be a relatively small matter for the piano technician to swap out the action at the beginning of the process.

This is perfectly feasible. The London South Bank Centre has a "Double Action Steinway" with two actions that can be swapped in a few minutes. In this case both actions have standard width keys (they are regulated differently to suit different playing styles), but a reduced-width action could be swapped with a standard one in the same manner.

So basically, rather than making a new piano, instead the same piano case and string assembly would be reused, but different-sized keys could be made (with larger/smaller wood blocks on the sides so that it would still fit the same piano case). An issue may be that the hammers will be somewhat diagonal (i.e. not in a straight line with the keys, but the hammer arms in the lower register would be diagonal toward the left, the ones in the upper register would be diagonal toward the right, to line up with the strings), but I don't think that's insurmountable.

The shafts of the keys (between the visible keys and the wippens) on a Steinbuhler reduced-width action are indeed more angled than on a standard keyboard, but this is not a problem: the hammers strike the strings at the same angle as those of a standard action.

The Dallas International Piano Competition now allows contestants to play on alternate-size keyboards: https://www.dallasipc.org/alternate-size-keyboards/. I don't know if they swap actions on the same piano or if they swap pianos, but in any case this shows that it is possible for a concert venue to provide different width keyboards.

[georgey]

A prior post: "I do wish violin were kept out of it.  They are totally different kinds of instruments.  A child trying to play a 4/4 size violin literally could not reach where he needs to place his hand."

Good point.  You are correct. My violin example was not good in this case. But one could say that there is only a true need for 2 sizes in violins: full size and half size.  A 5 year old could get by on a 1/2 size (which is too big for him) then move to full size at age 10 or 11 (again too big).  4 sizes were chosen (I'm guessing) to balance out need and practicality.  This will be my last post.  Thanks! 

[georgey]

I guess the modify key does not work so I have to do a new post.  Please consider this part of my last post.

Actually, it looks like there are 9 sizes of violin: full size, 7/8 (lady's size), 3/4, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/10, 1/16 and 1/32 intended to help children as they grow.  Ultimately any discussion of the new narrower ergonomic piano keyboards to improve playing will involve balancing need and practicality.  In the case of violins, it looks like 9 sizes were determined to be the balancing point. 

Thanks.

[louispodesta]

 I just sparked a discussion about a future solution to an issue There is no conspiracy going on ! 

If you want me to believe that your post was just happenstance, then I do not.  You are directly affiliated with pask.org, and so is the reference, Carol Leone (who is a Board Member), that you list as a link.
https://www.paskpiano.org/

Conspiracy, which is a word that most people have no knowledge of, usually pertains to criminal behavior.  What you are doing is promoting a hidden agenda of a non-profit organization, per a specific design of a piano.

[dogperson]

If you want me to believe that your post was just happenstance, then I do not.  You are directly affiliated with pask.org, and so is the reference, Carol Leone (who is a Board Member), that you list as a link.
https://www.paskpiano.org/

Conspiracy, which is a word that most people have no knowledge of, usually pertains to criminal behavior.  What you are doing is promoting a hidden agenda of a non-profit organization, per a specific design of a piano.

Hidden agenda?  Conspiracy?  For Pete's sake!  This is a non-profit organization that believes in narrow, ergonomic keyboards.  The agenda was clear from the first post and links to the non-profit org information were not hidden.  You underestimate everyone else on this forum by stating we don't know what conspiracy means. Really??  The problem is that you are finding a conspiracy when there is there is no evidence, no harm, and no request for money. If you are not interested in this discussion, no one is making you read it.  There has been a lot of discussion, which most of us have appreciated.

[keypeg]

.

[timothy42b]

Actually, it looks like there are 9 sizes of violin: full size, 7/8 (lady's size), 3/4, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/10, 1/16 and 1/32 intended to help children as they grow.  Ultimately any discussion of the new narrower ergonomic piano keyboards to improve playing will involve balancing need and practicality.  In the case of violins, it looks like 9 sizes were determined to be the balancing point. 

Thanks.

Are there really 9 sizes?  Wow. 

But we've long known the sizes of the standard four strings (violin, viola, cello, and double bass) are wrong.  They don't evenly divide the scale, and the body resonances don't match the air resonances optimally.  The "New Strings" family has been redesigned to the correct sizes. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin_octet

[jasper14]

  Still several more sizes the piano is currently offering     The evidence is, only two more additional keyboard size standards are needed ! (small 7/8 and universal 15/16) 

[jasper14]

 Reduced size keyboards part 2 

 
 

[louispodesta]

Reduced size keyboards part 2 

 
 

Thank you so much!

[jasper14]

 Your welcome, hope you found it interesting !