Thoughts on new narrower ergonomic piano keyboards to improve playing.

[jasper14]

  Hi
 
 I don't believe this topic has been discussed ! Most pianists have probably not heard about this  rather recent technology. I learn't about these alternate smaller keyboard sizes (small 7/8 and universal 15/16) in Piano Professional Magazine and was taken back by the huge potential and the many positive implications from a technical, musical and even pianistic health perspective. 

The article really made me wonder and question why we still have one large standard/conventional size, which can never really properly accommodate for all the variety of players. If smaller keyboard sizes were universally accepted and easily available, would any smaller handed pianists consider playing a smaller size or even owning one ??

Thanks

https://www.carolleone.com/ergonomic-keyboards/
https://www.paskpiano.org/
     

[adodd81802]

Hi Jasper,

Interesting concept, but not to my taste. I have average size hands for a guy I would say and can reach a 9th comfortably and an awkward 10th. It is rare I need that stretch. Why my mind would tell me there's an advantage in smaller keys that are closer together; I think there is a reality check in order.

My thoughts are;
- Wouldn't smaller keys require more accuracy? maybe reaching a note is easier because of physical distance but then requires a higher amount of accuracy when hitting these notes a speed. I haven't had a chance to read all of the article in the links you have provided but I could not see anybody really showcase a difficult piece.

-This alteration is advertised for women and children primarily it seems (as documented in the article) but muscle memory for children would get destroyed if they practiced on something like this and then moved to a bigger piano it would be like learning all over again.

-You can go on Youtube and watch 4,5,6 year old children perform pieces beyond my capability with hands half the size so I don't really think there's a big gap in the market for something like this personally.

-Isn't there already instruments out such as keyboards and electronic pianos that already have smaller and lighter keys? I don't think this is a massively new technology, if you check back on the history of the piano they started off smaller than they are today and have evolved to this size to meet the needs of the pianist in my opinion. A standard has to be in place for anything that is to be taken seriously.

[outin]

Why do we have the standard size? Because there are plenty enough pianists that can handle it so that there's no need to level the field for those who cannot. A smaller keyboard would benefit those with smaller hands, but it's much easier for the industry to keep alive the myth that only skills matter, not size. Those who can will just work double hard to compensate and those who cannot will be weaned out.

There have been experiments and it isn't really that difficult for a skilled pianist to change between the keyboard sizes. But the benefits of the smaller keyboards are only applicaple for those with smaller hands, when the hand gets bigger it usually also becomes more difficult to fit the fingers between the black keys.

It is true that you see kids play all kinds off stuff, but kids tend to get away with a lot that we would not accept from an adult pianist. Also most kids have big enough hands already when they start playing advanced stuff.

I would definitely purchase smaller keyboard if it was possible, but so far they are only available in states.

[timothy42b]

You're not thinking far enough out of the box.

There's no reason to be limited to a straight line chromatic layout.

It could curve around the player.

But even that is limited.

See here:
https://andymurkin.wordpress.com/2011/12/31/alternative-keyboards-1/

Wicki-Hayden comes to mind. 

[adodd81802]

There have been experiments and it isn't really that difficult for a skilled pianist to change between the keyboard sizes. But the benefits of the smaller keyboards are only applicaple for those with smaller hands, when the hand gets bigger it usually also becomes more difficult to fit the fingers between the black keys.

What experiments are you referring too and 'skilled' pianist example could you provide? On the contrary to my original point, you could argue that a professional sprinter has custom designed trainers to give their running style the best possible advantage, or that a violin player would have their own custom bow, but the main game doesn't change. The track is still 100m, the violin is still built for specification, a pianist can have a piano with a heavier action or a lighter action, they can adjust the stool to their choosing but the piano is a piano because of what makes it the piano.

Sure you can have variations, and it can sound similar or even the same, put the black keys at the bottom, put the keys in a circle, hell let's put it all on the floor and play with our toes lol but it's not then a piano.

You have acoustic guitars, electric guitars, banjos, ukuleles, bass, etc all different variations of the same main instrument, but they're not all called the same thing? let's not try pass this off in the same league.

There is no "myth" around the skills required to master a piano. Just as a 100m sprinter is unlikely to run a marathon, just as a professional cricket player is unlikely to play baseball, if you don't have the ability to play what is defined as the "piano", don't play the piano, play something like the piano if you want, but it's not the piano.

[timothy42b]

Playing the modern piano is nothing like playing what Bach or Chopin used.

Improvement and modernization have been occuring for hundreds of years - why do you insist it must be frozen now? 

[iansinclair]

A few thoughts, from one who has routinely played four different keyboard instruments in the past -- piano, pipe organ, harpsichord and clavichord (now retired, mostly piano).

First -- the concept is hardly new.  The normal harpsichord and clavichord keyboards are roughly 7/8; perhaps a little smaller.  I never bothered to measure them.  So the idea of a narrower keyboard being something wonderful and new just isn't correct.

Second, I can assure you from experience that transitioning from harpsichord to organ and back is just plain hard.  In fact, for well-practiced pieces or sight reading it borders on the impossible, for the simple reason that your muscle memory tells you how to place your fingers for any given interval.  You don't think "now I'm going to space my fingers X cm apart", you think "now I'm going to play a fifth".  This, of course, does not apply to beginning or even some intermediate students, but it surely applies to more advanced players.

Third, as has been said, there is very little piano music which is difficult to play by people with ordinary hands, even smaller than ordinary hands (although I'll grant that there is some).

Fourth, as also has been said, the narrower keys do require considerably greater precision in placing one's fingers.  This can be a problem.

[outin]

What experiments are you referring too and 'skilled' pianist example could you provide?

...


There is no "myth" around the skills required to master a piano. Just as a 100m sprinter is unlikely to run a marathon, just as a professional cricket player is unlikely to play baseball, if you don't have the ability to play what is defined as the "piano", don't play the piano, play something like the piano if you want, but it's not the piano.

Sorry, that's just plain stupid. To change the width of the keys of the piano does not in any way change to sound of the instrument or it's capabilities. Older grands often naturally had slightly narrower keys. I've met pianos that were much more friendly to play than usual. The keys are just like the OS of the computer, there's absolutely no reason not to change it to better suit your needs if you have the funds and the opportunity.

As for your first question: Some pianists already have used these keyboards and perform on regular pianos as well. You can read more here:
https://www.smallpianokeyboards.org/
There are plenty of references and videos of pianists trying out smaller keyboards etc.

Other instruments such as harpsichords or organ have the additional difference of lesser key depth, different weight and even a different sound producing mechanism, so obviously it's not easy to transfer between them. But unless one has tried I don't think anyone can say the same applies to the smaller keyboards. After all they are not really THAT much smaller.

It's a matter of costs and demand really. If the price is reasonable and more pianists (especially amateur pianists who mainly play their own piano) feel the need to play without extra difficulties produced by their hands size, these things will become more common. Time will tell...

I should point out that people who really would benefit from a smaller keyboard are those who have trouble playing an octave on a regular one. I can assure you it's pretty difficult to find even remotely advanced romantic era or later music without any...

[keypeg]

Has anybody mentioned yet that the piano has an almost unique attribute in that the musician does not play on his own instrument when he performs?  If someone regularly plays on his own custom-sized or smaller sized keyboard, and then tries to perform on a piano that has standard width keys, I cannot imagine that he'll instantly adjust.  Everything will feel different.  I once traded violin and viola with a family member who needed to borrow my violin for a week (long story).  Adjusting back to different distances was not instantaneous.  That is my main frame of reference.

[outin]

Has anybody mentioned yet that the piano has an almost unique attribute in that the musician does not play on his own instrument when he performs?  If someone regularly plays on his own custom-sized or smaller sized keyboard, and then tries to perform on a piano that has standard width keys, I cannot imagine that he'll instantly adjust.  Everything will feel different.  I once traded violin and viola with a family member who needed to borrow my violin for a week (long story).  Adjusting back to different distances was not instantaneous.  That is my main frame of reference.

May I suggest you also do some reading about this before making assumptions:
https://www.paskpiano.org/barriers-to-change.html
The linked article and the websites I linked addres many of the arguments in this thread based on unduvidual experiences as well as research.

One may not be able to adjust in an instant, but this is a very small price to pay for all the benefits. And pianists have to adjust to a lot anyway unlike most other musicians who get very used to playing their own.

[keypeg]

May I suggest you also do some reading about this before making assumptions:

I stated that in this discussion, I did not see any mention about the fact that pianists who perform elsewhere will not be playing their own piano.  I did not assume it was not mentioned - I checked the thread and unless I missed something, I did not see it being mentioned.   I did not state anything about the article.

Meanwhile I reread the article. It is a very long article with blue letters on a black background but I did my best.  I did not see this particular issue addressed.  Can you provide a quote, if it is addressed, to make reading easier?  I do think it is worth discussing.  For example, I would be interested in the experience of anyone who has had to perform on an instrument that had different dimensions than the one he usually plays, and how easy it was to adjust.

[asiantraveller101]

Has anybody mentioned yet that the piano has an almost unique attribute in that the musician does not play on his own instrument when he performs?  If someone regularly plays on his own custom-sized or smaller sized keyboard, and then tries to perform on a piano that has standard width keys, I cannot imagine that he'll instantly adjust.  Everything will feel different.  I once traded violin and viola with a family member who needed to borrow my violin for a week (long story).  Adjusting back to different distances was not instantaneous.  That is my main frame of reference.

That is my thought too. When we perform at different locations, we don't get to choose a piano with modified key size; unless if one travels with his/her own piano. This modified keyboard was showcased at a music convention that I attended, and as much as I like the idea, I just wonder if the benefits outweigh the mere fact the we don't get to choose the piano when we perform.
Talking from my personal experience, I had performed on older pianos where the keys are a tad narrower than the current standard size. Visually it did play mind tricks on me. I had to focus harder and reminded myself that I should trust what I had prepared for and just go with the flow. It did create some anxiety for me.

[outin]

I stated that in this discussion, I did not see any mention about the fact that pianists who perform elsewhere will not be playing their own piano.  I did not assume it was not mentioned - I checked the thread and unless I missed something, I did not see it being mentioned.   I did not state anything about the article.

Meanwhile I reread the article. It is a very long article with blue letters on a black background but I did my best.  I did not see this particular issue addressed.  Can you provide a quote, if it is addressed, to make reading easier?  I do think it is worth discussing.  For example, I would be interested in the experience of anyone who has had to perform on an instrument that had different dimensions than the one he usually plays, and how easy it was to adjust.

This issue was addressed briefly with a link to a more detailed article:

5. Feedback from pianists who have tried ergonomically scaled piano keyboards (ESPKs)

...

Importantly, these pianists report that they have a much greater ability to focus on the music itself, rather than on overcoming technical obstacles. Almost without exception, they adapt very quickly to the smaller keyboard – within a few hours; a few days at most. Once adapted, for pieces they can play on the standard keyboard, the pianist is able to swap back and forth between the conventional and smaller keyboard as needed. This is rather like learning to drive on the ‘wrong’ side of the road when changing countries – once drivers have been through the initial adaptation process they retain the ability to drive on the either side easily in years to come.

...

See these videos taken by Mario Ajero showing how easy it is to interchannge Steinbuhler keyboards in grand pianos, pianists trying a DS5.5™  (7/8) keyboard for the first time, and Dr Carol Leone giving a lecture-recital at the 2007 MTNA conference.
Reduced-size keyboards Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBfDN9DBsnk
Reduced-size keyboards Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiF05uBej0c

See also:https://llpianokeyboards.org/what-pianists-say.html

The benefits of a reduced size keyboard for someone like me, who cannot strech an octave with my right hand properly, are so obvious that I really hope they will become more common and in the future years I will be able to easily acquire such a piano for my personal use. I would probably play music on my own piano that I could never play on a standard keyboard due to not being able to do it justice. But I have no doubt I would have little trouble adjusting to other pianos occasionally, since I don't rely on pure muscle memory much in playing anyway. Most of my practice time now goes to solving problems caused by my span and learning to know exactly what I am doing, instead of hacking notes into my muscle memory. The reduced discomfort and technical difficulties with pieces would free much of my learning capasity to adjusting to the slight differences on the keyboard size.

[pianoman53]

Things like this has been discussed for ages! There was one designer who apparently completely changed the layout, and also the keys, so that it would be more like the buttons on accordions. According to sources (One of the rubinstein, among other, but can't remember which of them) the sound was the same, and the technique was superior, as anyone easily could reach c-g.
The problem, however, as with this one, is - Who will  begin learning it?

Who will throw their career aside, for "the greater good"? Clearly, this adjustment is smaller than the one I mentioned, but by far enough to mess with someones muscle memory.

There are videos of people falling in stairs, because the steps are slight higher. This, I'm afraid, would do the same.

It's a good idea, but I doubt anyone seriously will change, since their muscle memory will have to change too...

[outin]

Who will throw their career aside, for "the greater good"? Clearly, this adjustment is smaller than the one I mentioned, but by far enough to mess with someones muscle memory.

I don't see you people keep insisting that this will happen, when the pianists who have actually tried and used these keyboards don't think so at all?

And to ignore the fact that there are plenty of people who have no change to a career at all simply because they cannot play easily enough with the large keyboard that is the norm today (larger than what much of the music we play was written for). Why would they not want a change?

You too would understand better if you did some reseach, maybe starting with the websited in this thread.

[adodd81802]

Outin, are you a salesman for this Piano, have you already invested? 

I checked the website, I still personally don't see a market for it and to be honest it seems silly to go back and fourth some people (including myself) are simply going to disagree with the idea from the perspective of it coming in as the new "standard" which it simply won't do in my opinion, if it even kicks off at all. It's not a new technology, you can pop down to your local supermarket and pick up a cheap child's keyboard, that's the level I put this on. Call it ignorant but I can't take it seriously at this stage.

I stand by my point with regards to muscle memory, this site is promoting the idea, of course they're going to find pianists that don't struggle with the idea, or are in favour, are there any "against" arguments on this website? Are they any real reputable pianists that are prepared to put their reputation on the line to support the concept?

I'm looking for more balanced facts to be honest, more balanced statistics.

I feel this Piano is trying to go straight to the top market, I mean it's not likely to be something you will be able to pick up for Ł500 now is it? If you are saying there are people that can't physically play an octave, why would they have gotten into piano in the first place? Surely they would have already went for a keyboard alternative knowing they can't properly play a piano.

 

[outin]

Outin, are you a salesman for this Piano, have you already invested? 

I checked the website, I still personally don't see a market for it and to be honest it seems silly to go back and fourth some people (including myself) are simply going to disagree with the idea from the perspective of it coming in as the new "standard" which it simply won't do in my opinion, if it even kicks off at all. It's not a new technology, you can pop down to your local supermarket and pick up a cheap child's keyboard, that's the level I put this on. Call it ignorant but I can't take it seriously at this stage.

I stand by my point with regards to muscle memory, this site is promoting the idea, of course they're going to find pianists that don't struggle with the idea, or are in favour, are there any "against" arguments on this website? Are they any real reputable pianists that are prepared to put their reputation on the line to support the concept?

I'm looking for more balanced facts to be honest, more balanced statistics.

I feel this Piano is trying to go straight to the top market, I mean it's not likely to be something you will be able to pick up for Ł500 now is it? If you are saying there are people that can't physically play an octave, why would they have gotten into piano in the first place? Surely they would have already went for a keyboard alternative knowing they can't properly play a piano.

 

I think you have completely missed the point. It's not about a new standard that would replace the present piano at all. It's also not about just one company trying to bring something to market. It's about expanding the choice and filling a demand that clearly exists (and yes, there are scientific studies about hand size and it's effects on playing if you really want to know more). You may have "checked the website" but I don't think you actually bothered to read much, otherwise you would already know this

I wonder why you are against for levelling the field in piano playing? Is it an emotional issue? No-one is asking YOU to play on a different keyboard. But maybe you are worried that if everyone had access to proper tools suitable for their size there would be more competition? Did you even consider that most of the great composers actually wrote and played their stuff on a keyboard with smaller keys to begin with? Are you aware that the present standard was simply just fitted to the hands of the great male concert pianists of the late 19th century? Or maybe you just think it's ok for women in general to have it more difficult to succeed in piano playing? Statistics show that it's mostly women who are effected by small hands, although some men do too.

Keyboards and toy pianos are a completely different thing. What is discussed here is a simple issue of providing instruments that have slightly narrower keys to allow more healthy playing for plenty of people.

And yes, I do know there are people who cannot play octaves properly, since I am one of them. And yes, I still want to play the piano, why shouldn't I? And I can play it to some level despite my handicap. I would just like to play even better and that will be possible after I get access to a slightly more ergonomic keyboard. I have absolutely no doubt that in the future I will get one, because even Kawai has been experimenting on the market with these and there are already companies in UK and Germany that will produce one in demand. So it's only a matter of waiting until the prices get reasonable.

[philolog]

If it was good enough for Josef Hoffmann it should be good enough for anyone.

All kidding aside (although my remark wasn't entirely made in jest) I've played keyboard instruments of all kinds and never felt that the size of the key was an insurmountable impediment. Far more important, in my view, is the action and the "drop."

In any case, I don't see why anyone should be hostile to the mass-market introduction of such a keyboard.

[pianoman53]

Did I hit a soft-spot or something? All I said was, that I don' believe in it. You can go ahead and get one. I really don't care.

[outin]

Did I hit a soft-spot or something? All I said was, that I don' believe in it. You can go ahead and get one. I really don't care.

I just tend to have a habit of trying to educate people, even when they don't see the need themselves but rather feel it's adquate to just feed their existing beliefs

[louispodesta]

  Hi
 
 I don't believe this topic has been discussed ! Most pianists have probably not heard about this  rather recent technology. I learn't about these alternate smaller keyboard sizes (small 7/8 and universal 15/16) in Piano Professional Magazine and was taken back by the huge potential and the many positive implications from a technical, musical and even pianistic health perspective. 

The article really made me wonder and question why we still have one large standard/conventional size, which can never really properly accommodate for all the variety of players. If smaller keyboard sizes were universally accepted and easily available, would any smaller handed pianists consider playing a smaller size or even owning one ??

Thanks

https://www.carolleone.com/ergonomic-keyboards/
https://www.paskpiano.org/
     

I proffer the following two observations:  1)  Steinway built a special piano with narrower width white keys for Josef Hoffman because he had small hands.  It was no big deal then, and it is no big deal now.

2)  I will not play on a Steinway made in the last 20 years because they have skinny black keys, which no one is talking about.  My Baldwin has normal black keys, and I have thin spindly fingers.  When I play on recently built Steinways, I feel like I am going to fall off.

When I asked my Steinway factory trained tuner/tech about it, he said the reason Steinway did it is that their average customer was the average fat American.  Therefore, with their fat fingers these skinny (and sometimes flat) black keys feel just fine.

[timothy42b]

2)  I will not play on a Steinway made in the last 20 years because they have skinny black keys, which no one is talking about.  My Baldwin has normal black keys, and I have thin spindly fingers.  When I play on recently built Steinways, I feel like I am going to fall off.

When you must play between the black keys, more room is nice.  I could live with black keys at half the width, giving me twice as much room to fit my fat fingers in between. 

[jasper14]

  Thanks for all the responses.

  Lots of very interesting ideas and this topic clearly divides opinions, for and against the introduction of smaller ergonomic piano keyboards.  Finally I would probably guest that the majority of people against this idea, are players who already have larger hands and would not personally benefit much.     

[louispodesta]

  Thanks for all the responses.

  Lots of very interesting ideas and this topic clearly divides opinions, for and against the introduction of smaller ergonomic piano keyboards.  Finally I would probably guest that the majority of people against this idea, are players who already have larger hands and would not personally benefit much.     

Yours is a great post.

In terms of further discussion, why did the piano makers of the day in the 19th century decide to widen the key width?  I know why, and it did not have anything to do with facility.

As I have said before, it had to with the average width of the customer's fingers.  I will never forget playing on my first Kawai at NTSU in 1971.  The first thing I noticed is that the white keys were "wider."   And, I will not even remotely entertain a response to any Xenophobic characterization of what I have just stated.

Finally, well I guess you can make the white keys the same, and the black keys taller and thinner, or you can just widen the white keys.  The great Earl Wild, late in life after Baldwin folded, endorsed the Kawai Concert Grand, and I just figured out why?

He states in his "Memoir" the lifelong difficulty he had with his big thick fingers.

[pianoman53]

I just tend to have a habit of trying to educate people, even when they don't see the need themselves but rather feel it's adquate to just feed their existing beliefs

Oh, like a Jehovas witness. Charming.

[jasper14]

 One other important consideration is the impact and effect ergonomic keyboards would have on children and teenagers in the future learning the instrument ?  Future generations may easily and naturally be able to flexibly adapt from one size to the other and have their own personal keyboard size preference.  https://www.paskpiano.org/vision-for-the-future.html

[chrisbutch]

A few thoughts, from one who has routinely played four different keyboard instruments in the past -- piano, pipe organ, harpsichord and clavichord (now retired, mostly piano)....


Second, I can assure you from experience that transitioning from harpsichord to organ and back is just plain hard.  In fact, for well-practiced pieces or sight reading it borders on the impossible, for the simple reason that your muscle memory tells you how to place your fingers for any given interval.  You don't think "now I'm going to space my fingers X cm apart", you think "now I'm going to play a fifth".  This, of course, does not apply to beginning or even some intermediate students, but it surely applies to more advanced players....

I have a similar background, and like you have now mostly 'retired' to the piano: but I'm rather surprised at your comments about adapting to the organ keyboard. One of the daily challenges for an organist (if, that is, he happens to be a jobbing player frequently encounterting an unknown instrument) is the significant differences between organs. The variable distance between the [always, for some reason, fixed] bench and the manuals; between the manuals themselves; the shape and scale of the pedalboard (straight, curved, concave) - all these mean that you're constantly having to change the physical relationship of your body, including your hands, with the instrument.
Thinking back I guess that learning how to cope with these differences was an integral part of the general learning process, and your entire technique was based on the need to get physical feedback from any particular organ's characteristics, For instance, it's partly for this reason that the hands (when not changing registration) tended to stay in constant contact with the keyboard, so that the finger edges were constantly feeling for the black key positions to confirm location - something a confident pianist has no need to do. (Of course there are other reasons  the hands stay on an organ keyboard, but that's one of them). Even more so with the pedalboard.
The only conclusion relevant to this thread that I can draw from this is that if piano keyboards were to be widely available in various scales as suggested, then pianists would acquire similar adaptation skills as an integral part of the learning process. Whether the effect on performing standards would be positive, negative or neutral I really don't know.

[outin]

Oh, like a Jehovas witness. Charming.

No, not them, I gave up on that long ago

[timothy42b]

One of the daily challenges for an organist (if, that is, he happens to be a jobbing player frequently encounterting an unknown instrument) is the significant differences between organs. The variable distance between the [always, for some reason, fixed] bench and the manuals; between the manuals themselves; the shape and scale of the pedalboard (straight, curved, concave) - all these mean that you're constantly having to change the physical relationship of your body, including your hands, with the instrument.

I would add figuring out where to look - the music desk varies in position and that was the worst problem for me.

[iansinclair]

I like chrisbutch's comments!  He is so right... organists are a somewhat different breed of cat from pianists, and the differences between various consoles is one of the reasons!  Fortunately, key spacing is pretty constant.  Pretty much everything else is up for grabs, although the various organ guilds (such as the American Guild of Organists or the Royal College) have standards for the way consoles are built, with the result that the variation is much less in more modern instruments.

Older instruments -- particularly older trackers -- can have wide variations in key drop (which can change with the use of couplers!) and the geometry of pedal boards can be quite variable; the modern standard is a concave radiating board, which is pretty ergonomic, but the instrument I usually play these days has a flat straight board, which is anything but (reaching the bottom C is an exercise in creative gymnastics).

Never mind the variations in locations for stops, couplers, buttons, expression pedals, and various other useful doodads.

As to benches with a fixed height... that's what hymnals are for.

It all adds to the fun...

[keypeg]

[quoted]: "Once adapted, for pieces they can play on the standard keyboard, the pianist is able to swap back and forth between the conventional and smaller keyboard as needed. This is rather like learning to drive on the ‘wrong’ side of the road when changing countries – once drivers have been through the initial adaptation process they retain the ability to drive on the either side easily in years to come."

Thank you, that is the information I needed and did not see before.

I have only two experiences with variable sized instruments: The time I swapped my violin for a viola for a week, and the three sizes of recorders that I have (descant, alto, tenor).  With the former, I needed a period of adjustment once I returned to the violin.  With the latter, I adjust the finger distance and difference to how much breath is needed within seconds.  Ofc the fingers also stay put and don't move around for the recorder.  I'm thinking about this after having read the post about organs.

[timothy42b]

The time I swapped my violin for a viola for a week, and the three sizes of recorders that I have (descant, alto, tenor).    With the latter, I adjust the finger distance and difference to how much breath is needed within seconds.  Ofc the fingers also stay put and don't move around for the recorder. 

I play a little tenor, more alto descant and sopranino (my favorite), and a very little garklein.

My fingers have no problem going back and forth.  My brain has a little trouble jumping from F and C fingerings though. 

[jasper14]

  Some wise words from composer/pianist Christopher Donison, who seems to understand the greater issue.

   THERE ARE TWO GREAT SECRETS IN THE WORLD OF PIANO PLAYING

The first is how much easier the instrument is to play with larger hands and the second is how impossible it can be with smaller hands. If one can divide the world into roughly two constituencies; a smaller half and a larger half, one can see that the larger half never really knows what the difficulties of their small-handed counter-parts are, and the smaller half never really finds out how much easier all the difficulties are with larger hands. This is because small-handed people never wake up the next morning with larger hands, no matter how hard they may pray for that to happen, and the larger handed people have never experienced the difficulties of the smaller-handed people. Their hands were already big enough long before they were attempting repertoire that was challenging enough to betray the secret."

https://www.chrisdonison.com/keyboard.html

[jasper14]

   I think that smaller sized keyboards will become more common simply because the percentage of people who do have too small hands to comfortably play on the present standard is so high. Most amateurs don't even have to worry about adjusting, because they play only on their own piano. So why not buy something that fits you instead of banging your head to the wall? It's only a matter of price and the more common they get the cheaper and easier they will become to purchase.

[mjames]

but it's much easier for the industry to keep alive the myth that only skills matter, not size. Those who can will just work double hard to compensate and those who cannot will be weaned out.

That IS true though. Pianists with itsy bitsy hands like Yuja Wang or Ashkenazy are still capable of playing monster pieces like Rach's 3rd and Prokofiev's 2nd. You will rarely RARELY find chords with absurd 11th/12th/13th stretches and even then, it can be easily compensated by rolling it so fast it'd be hard to tell the difference. Sure it sucks to have small hands, but it can be easily compensated by polishing your skills/technique. Unless you can't even play an octave (which is like baby small) then you don't have the right to complain about your size (not saying you are).

Anyways, smaller keyboards are available. I don't see why the entire industry has to reshape itself just so it can fit the needs of a MINORITY.

[jasper14]

  Those who have large enough hands (mostly males) do not get why anything should change at all. A selfish attitude of course, but that's how people are.

Those who really would benefit will understand what a great thing it is to have this choice after doing some research on the issue. Unless they think they have already worked so hard to manage and it would break their heart to realize that it could have been so much easier.

Research on hand sizes indicate there is actually a larger percentage of smaller handed pianists!
So should't the industry finally start catering for them and become far less rigid and inflexible ?   

[outin]

That IS true though. Pianists with itsy bitsy hands like Yuja Wang or Ashkenazy are still capable of playing monster pieces like Rach's 3rd and Prokofiev's 2nd. You will rarely RARELY find chords with absurd 11th/12th/13th stretches and even then, it can be easily compensated by rolling it so fast it'd be hard to tell the difference. Sure it sucks to have small hands, but it can be easily compensated by polishing your skills/technique. Unless you can't even play an octave (which is like baby small) then you don't have the right to complain about your size (not saying you are).

Anyways, smaller keyboards are available. I don't see why the entire industry has to reshape itself just so it can fit the needs of a MINORITY.

Ignorance speaking. The two pianists you mention DON'T have small hands. Small hands are those who cannot play a comfortable octave. And it's no small minority at all. When you look at advanced pianists you see a tip of the iceberg, while the majority never even play such advanced music. And one reason is because it's too hard to compensate for the small hands. Successfull pianists with really small hands are extremely rare.

On a conventional keyboard it's not possible to really compensate for the lack of comfortable octaves no matter how much polishing you do, yet many females do need to try (and no, they are not babies). I do too, so yes, I do complain and definitely do have a personal interest in this matter.

Several of my female friends play the piano and they wouldn't even bother to try to play a lot of music due to their hand size. I too have to select my pieces with this in mind. Some pieces I learn anyway because I am stubborn as hell and have a teacher who can give me specific tips on how to compensate. But the music still often suffers and the time I use for learning the pieces is multiplied. I also suffered from injury before I realized my physical limits.

BTW. You kind of proved my point about the myth, didn't you?

[mjames]

Ignorance speaking. The two pianists you mention DON'T have small hands. Small hands are those who cannot play a comfortable octave. And it's no small minority at all. When you look at advanced pianists you see a tip of the iceberg, while the majority never even play such advanced music. And one reason is because it's too hard to compensate for the small hands. Successfull pianists with really small hands are extremely rare.

On a conventional keyboard it's not possible to really compensate for the lack of comfortable octaves no matter how much polishing you do, yet many females do need to try (and no, they are not babies). I do too, so yes, I do complain and definitely do have a personal interest in this matter.

Several of my female friends play the piano and they wouldn't even bother to try to play a lot of music due to their hand size. I too have to select my pieces with this in mind. Some pieces I learn anyway because I am stubborn as hell and have a teacher who can give me specific tips on how to compensate. But the music still often suffers and the time I use for learning the pieces is multiplied. I also suffered from injury before I realized my physical limits.

BTW. You kind of proved my point about the myth, didn't you?

Lol, Yuja Wang and Ashkenazy do have small hands....

I've met both artists in real life, and trust me they do. If I'm not reliable enough then read about their interviews, they themselves claim to have small hands.

Anyways. No one said anything against small keyboards. There's a market for that, and thus making them available to you. HOWEVER, the majority can play comfortable octaves and 9ths so I don't see why the industry has to conform to a minority.

Anecdotal evidence isn't really valuable, how about we provide some statistics instead? In developed countries at least, the average hand size for men is over 7 inches long. Whereas for women it's around 6.5 inches long. I'm sorry if this offends you but most people can play comfortable octaves.

[jasper14]

 Here is some resent research on Hand Spans among the population of pianists. Conclusion is that majority of women, minority of men and all children have hands/body's to small for the conventional 'large' size. 

 A pianist needs to be able to reach a 10th in order to be able to really comfortably play octaves and the reality is most women can't reach 10ths !     

   https://www.smallpianokeyboards.org/hand-span-data.html
   https://www.smallpianokeyboards.org/how-many-pianists-have-small-hands.html
 

[outin]

Lol, Yuja Wang and Ashkenazy do have small hands....

I've met both artists in real life, and trust me they do. If I'm not reliable enough then read about their interviews, they themselves claim to have small hands.

Anyways. No one said anything against small keyboards. There's a market for that, and thus making them available to you. HOWEVER, the majority can play comfortable octaves and 9ths so I don't see why the industry has to conform to a minority.

Anecdotal evidence isn't really valuable, how about we provide some statistics instead? In developed countries at least, the average hand size for men is over 7 inches long. Whereas for women it's around 6.5 inches long. I'm sorry if this offends you but most people can play comfortable octaves.

Having small hands compared to other famous pianists is not the same as having small hands absolute. I've seen both play and they can reach octaves just fine. Ashkenazy does have very short fingers for a male, but it alone does not mean one has trouble reaching intervals. Of course they consider themselves having small hands due to the kind of repertoire they regularly play.  The people with REALLY small hands don't even try. EDIT it's not quite correct to talk about small hands on this context, what I am talking about is small hand span. I have longer fingers than my teacher, but she still has a better span, because her hand is wider.

Ignorance does not offend, only mildly annoy me

Hand length does not directly correlate to reach. Why don't you look at some actual hand span studies? You can find them easily by google and the links provided here.

Maybe the majority of people (at least in your country and mine) can reach an octave, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a big population that cannot. And among those there are certainly enough people that would like to play the piano better and more comfortably. When I referred to industry I was referring to the whole piano playing and teaching business, not just manufacturers. They make pianos  that sell, isn't that obvious? What has to change is the silly idea that size or shape doesn't matter, because EVERY proper study says it does matter.

[dcstudio]

Playing the modern piano is nothing like playing what Bach or Chopin used.

 

 

[louispodesta]

  Hi
 
 I don't believe this topic has been discussed ! Most pianists have probably not heard about this  rather recent technology. I learn't about these alternate smaller keyboard sizes (small 7/8 and universal 15/16) in Piano Professional Magazine and was taken back by the huge potential and the many positive implications from a technical, musical and even pianistic health perspective. 

The article really made me wonder and question why we still have one large standard/conventional size, which can never really properly accommodate for all the variety of players. If smaller keyboard sizes were universally accepted and easily available, would any smaller handed pianists consider playing a smaller size or even owning one ??

Thanks

https://www.carolleone.com/ergonomic-keyboards/
https://www.paskpiano.org/
     

Just today, I was memorizing and polishing the Debussy Fantasy.

Re:  per my thesis, 

, there were two reasons that people in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries rolled/arpeggiated their block chords.  And, there was much more to this original performance practice than just that, e.g. "Off The Record" by Neal Pers Da Costa.

As emailed to me by Professor Emeritus at Harvard by Robert Levin, this was an expressive device utilized by keyboardists (pianoforte and harpsichord) since pre-Baroque Era to the Post-Romantic.  I, however, take it into the Impressionists.

All of this means that the width of the white keys in the 19th century DID NOT MATTER!!!  If your hand, or your expressive disposition, did not fit a particular section of a piece, then you just adjusted (arpeggiated) accordingly, in my opinion.

[jasper14]

  Players with smaller hands may want to follow/support the global movement PASK on facebook ! (Pianists for Alternate Size Keyboards)  https://www.facebook.com/pask.piano

[outin]

All of this means that the width of the white keys in the 19th century DID NOT MATTER!!!  If your hand, or your expressive disposition, did not fit a particular section of a piece, then you just adjusted (arpeggiated) accordingly, in my opinion.

But this of course is only part of the solution. It works for large chords, but there are many other issues in playing with keys too wide.

[jasper14]

  These are some of the many problems and issues smaller handed pianists commonly find, discussed in the article. I personally can't get why so many people are negative and against introducing smaller sizes, to help make playing so much more enjoyable and fulfilling for so many! 

   This article describes the importance and
recent rise of the use of piano keyboards
with narrower keys for acoustic pianos,

called ergonomically scaled piano keyboards
(ESPKs). Before looking at this solution, let's
examine the problem people with smaller hand
spans have in playing conventional keyboards.
Can you or your students relate to any of these
challenges?
 We have to work physically harder at the
piano to achieve the same musical result as
pianists with large hand spans.
 We are denied the joy of playing certain
large-handed repertoire well.
 We have to work longer at mastering certain
passages, in particular those with large
chords and octaves.
 We are rarely considered to be "the pianist
with the big sou nd. "
 We are more susceptible to injury. injuries
related to playing the piano are at an all-time
high, with studies showing that nearly
three-quarters of those injuries are related to
playing large chords and octaves.

Millions of children studying piano across the
globe are playing piano keyboards that do
not fit their hands. Therefore, they are not
developing a proper hand position and a natural,
relaxed approach to the keyboard. ln contrast,
it is considered sound pedagogical practice to
give young string players smaller instruments.

Link to article https://www.carolleone.com/ergonomic-keyboards/

[dbwaterhouse]

For what it's worth, I had the opportunity of playing on Josef Hofmann's Steinway (as inherited by his son), and had no difficulty in adapting to its slightly narrower keyboard. David Waterhouse

[pianoman53]

The problem is not about practicing on certain instruments. The problems will occur later. Which instruments will be used in concert halls, during competitions, schools, recitals? If someone plays pieces like a Haydn sonata, it's okay, but if one plays the Dante sonata or Scriabin 5, the keys better be where you left them...!

[jasper14]

  Introduction to the Piano Professional Magazine Article on ergonomic piano keyboards

   'We expect most things in our life
to be tailor-made to fit our size.
This morning, you got up, put on
well-fitting clothes and shoes, and
popped on your prescription glasses or contacts.
lf you drive, you got in your car and adjusted the
seat, steering wheel, rear view mirror, and seat
belt. Colfers are fitted with proper size clubs
to optimize their performance.

A ballerina has
hundreds of sizes and shapes of pointe shoes to
choose from. Think of how particular we pianists
are about the importance of adjustable piano
stools. Why then, do we persist in the idea that
the piano keyboard is "one size fits all?"

Consider the different shapes and
sizes of everyone across the globe who
plays the piano: children, adults, males,
females, university students, amateurs,
teachers, professionals, aging pianists---
what percentage ofthem do you think have
hand spans that the conventional keyboard
ergonomically suits? Hand-size studies reveal
it is a very small percentage indeed-perhaps
less than twenty percent.

https://www.carolleone.com/ergonomic-keyboards/
 

[louispodesta]

In a rare moment, for conduct he thought un-appropriate, the moderator for this website "jerked my chain," as we say in my great State of Texas.  And, that was for suggesting that an OP had an agenda.

I was referring to someone who is not of a particular argument regarding an OP's posting, but instead someone who is promoting a way of doing things.

Regarding this particular OP's posting, that means an entity/organization gets one of their members (or Board Members) to post an inquiry making it look like just another pianist.

Hey, moderator, this time, that is exactly what is happening.  The way I know this is that I tried to further my thesis of "original performance practice" by personal message (for which they usually do respond).  They did not.

In addition, their latest post lists a link which is listed on their website as one of their Board Members.

Here is their website for your perusal. https://paskpiano.org/

[jasper14]

 I just sparked a discussion about a future solution to an issue There is no conspiracy going on !