need help beethoven piano sonata 1 op 2 allegro analysis

[bonnerik]

so i read structure & style by leon stein a few months back, and ive been trying to analyze each piece im working on. im having trouble making periods and phrases out of the subordinate theme in the development of beethovens sonata 1 op 2 first movement, mainly because of all the repetitions of motives and semiphrases. each time i look at the score, i make up new ways to make sense out of it (like seeing the phrases as irregular ones instead of plain 4 measure ones).

https://imslp.nl/imglnks/usimg/d/d8/IMSLP214688-PMLP01446-Beethoven_Op_2_No_1_-_I.pdf

like how would i divide measure 7 to 32 in the development ?
or do developments in sonata allegro form not really conform to the normal period/phrase structure ? just trying to make sense out of it.
 
any help appreciated..dont have a piano teacher.

[diomedes]

I would never attempt to analyze a development mainly because it's not possible, in the traditional sense of the word. That means that developments don't conform to any structure, they can be incredibly dismissive (Mozart typically has very little to do in them), or Herculean like Beethoven obviously where he develops one idea with OCD. Obviously, you can analyze the development, make observations, trace origins of ideas, but there's no set and standard protocol. As for phrase structure and symmetry, those are stylistic standards, meaning they're common. It's music, anything goes if there's reason for it in the composers mind.

[birba]

I'm really embarassed when i read some of these posts.  I never really sat down with pencil and paper and "analyzed" what i was playing.  I mean, i know all the terminology and sonata form blah blah but i guess i never  paid enough attention to it.  I would never have lost any sleep over the development in the first movement of op. 2 no. 1.  Maybe i should have.  I admire bonnerik's endeavor to make sense of the music.  And he knows what he's talking about.  But like diomedes put it, beethoven followed the classic form (at least here) only up to a certain point and then went outside the box.  So, i think you see the repetitions of the sub theme(?) and you don't have to "divide" anything.  I'm betting you already know enough about this development to be able to play it coherently.

[diomedes]

We're dealing with something so complicated that anything but an analytical mind is at a disadvantage. I'm scheduling 4 recitals this month coming up, 90 pages of music about, my most effective time spent is score studying. The fingers learn fast, the mind has to keep up.

My point is, it's necessary to deconstruct like this, because that's the essence of understanding. If you don't understand what you're doing, how can you communicate it clearly for an audience that's willing to give their time and listen.

As for the Sonata, I played it..... wow, 20 years ago when I was young useless dolt? And this sonata is quite far from outside of the box, and the development is highly standard developing theme 2 until it grows into basic motives and plays around with those until the birdie from the rocket theme prepares the recap.

As for what to call that theme, it's in a flat minor when it first appears so you can put it together with the A flat major theme after, all as theme group 2. This exact formula happens in the pathetique sonata (here it's defiant, there it's dominant is the main difference), obviously with an interesting development.

I don't think you need pencil and paper, but you need a lot of time to go through a great deal of repertoire, sight reading will develop, understanding and experience will grow as well etc etc. But it takes time.

[birba]

I don't think you got what I was trying to communicate.  I KNOW it's very important to analyze and study the music away from the keyboard.  In fact, I was praising Bonnerik for his digilence in looking into the structure of the sonata, and saying that I, as a student, perhaps didn't do enough of this. 

[bronnestam]

bonnerik, your nick name suggests that you are Swedish?
If so, then send me a PM and I can give you a tip.

... Well, I can even if you are not Swedish, of course.