Learn treble clef or bass clef or both at the same time?

[burzum0727]

I have recently returned to playing again and have put a lot of focus on sight reading as I have never learned. I have been practicing for about 4 days now to identify notes on the treble clef. Should I continue to do that until I can identify all notes with no problem, or switch to bass clef? Or should i do them both ? My common sense tells me to learn all treble then go to bass but I don't want to.develop a bad habit at the start... thank you for your time.and answers.

[burzum0727]

Also I am teaching myself for now and have decided to use the abrsm level one list as a kind of goal for myself is that a good choice. I've also thought to put the hanon exercises on top of those to help in scale memorization, after ive finished learning the notes for sight reading. I hope I am going about this in a constructive manner... please give me your input it is very important to me.

[dcstudio]

can you go into more detail about how exactly you are practicing identifying these notes on the treble clef?   

Just get a working knowledge of both to start with...  it is better that way.   You should really get used to looking at the grand staff as one entity--so spend as little time as possible focusing on each clef separately. 

sight reading huh...  was that perchance why you quit before---bad experience? or something to do with your sight reading not being what it should be?  Just curious...lol...anyway  how long has it been since you played and how long did you take lessons?  what was the last piece you were playing?

[burzum0727]

I have a program that runs the notes in an octave I cover each till I have it perfect 3x totals about 80 notes or so . So say I did that in c octave then I basically move it up a step to the octave of d. Basically adding one note at a time till i can identify it. Then I plan to add accidentals. I have all bachs inventions and books with music and sight read on those afterwards. It is not the reason I quit before lol I had to focus on my pregnant wife at the time. So I didn't really "quit" I more than Anything else put it to the side for awhile. I got virtually nowhere before other than figuring out some personal goals., and learning about arpeggios and scales. But I did almost no sight reading before and am more dedicated to it now and can takeit wherever I go so its is convenient to sight read. Plus I have found it to be a lot.more fun this time around. I cannot get lessons I live to far away from anywhere that I can find instruction. Now I'm focusing on pieces and such because I have found the time. My personal goals are 1.) Learn to identify all notes 2 and 3.) Play bachs minuet in g, prelude in c and invention no.1 4.) To learn cgad major.scales by memory and play them backward, forward, hands together, contrary and basically the rest of level one for abrsm . I won't be graded by anyone other than myself but it helps with no instruction. That's about all I have for now.

[burzum0727]

And as for the hanon I'm not sure because I have heard so many good and bad things about it I'm not sure if its a good or bad thing yet so any input on that would be welcome as well.

[mrnhrtkmp210999]

It's really a question of what kind of piece your studying. A lot of music from the classical period is mostly a combination of chordal accompaniment in the left hand (bass clef) and melodic playing in the right hand (treble cleff). This goes for a lot of the romantic music and beyond that ass well, except that in the romantic music the melodies became more and more complicated and composers threw in a lot of difficult passage work.

However, if you look at much music from the renaissance and early-baroque music, you will encounter a lot of so-called 'contrapuntal' music. From the pieces you mentioned, the two inventions contain what we call 'two-part counterpoint'. Bach was a composer of the late-baroque period which you probably already knew, but his keyboard music mostly isn't very typically for this period, since the baroque period states (a.o) the development of dramatic melodies. The St. Matthew Passion is one of the many works that examplifies this very much. There is a lot more to say on what counterpoint is which I could also briefly explain if you would want me to.

To come back to your question. It is (and to be honest, this is no matter of opinion) not smart to learn the inventions without studying the two parts individually because in contrapuntal music, all the parts/voices are considered equally important. It is highly reccomendable to learn both the parts apart and then go on to getting them together.

As for the minuet and prelude. You do not have to do this. The minuet is indeed a piece with a melody in the right hand and an accompaniment in the left hand. The prelude is another kind of structure. It contains basically of a third in the left hand and a triad in the right hand. It has a short coda at the end which is preceded by a very long and tensional period. You could learn this prelude very quick by simple begin playing all the notes at the same time (except for those last two bars of course). Then move on to play first the notes in the left hand at the same time, and then the notes in the right hand at the same time. So you get thirds in the left hand, and triads in the right hand. If you've done this. Just observe the rythm a couple of times and then you should be able to play it all trough.

I wouldn't recommend using conservatory levels to much, but if you're gonna go trough with it anyway, I'd go for the RCM grades rather then the ABRSM's. I could also give you a beginning list of pieces to begin (the ones you mentioned are fine) which I think is much more accurate. Use as a general principle that you should only play pieces you really like.

Then, to move on to your last question. Drop Hanon. It is just idiosyncratic exercise playing which does not improve your 'technique' in the slightest, just for the simple reason that there is no such thing as abstract technique. If there would be a kind of technique that could improve by grades, that would mean that, would I've mastered grade 1, I should be able to play all pieces which are concerned grade 1 perfectly. I'll tell you, I would not. Every piece has it's own technical difficulties and those technical difficulties are then again also related to a specific person. What could be difficult for me, would not have to be difficult for you. Keep on playing the pieces instead of any technical exercises.

Last sidenote, could you tell me more clearly what exactly your way of practising at the moment is?

BW,
Marijn

[burzum0727]

I would like to thank you for your excellent answer first off it is very appreciated. When it comes to Bach I am fascinated with the use of counterpoint and would love to hear more about it if you would mind. To be honest I was learning the prelude and the minuet simply because I wanted to learn something simple as a motivator so to speak. I took a look at the RCM level one requirements and I have no problem doing that instead. As for whether or not I actually do it is another thing completely. I planned to do it simply because it gave some structure to my daily regimen. I am more than open to any other paths. I would also like you very much to reccommend any songs to me that you think would be constructive. Thank you for clearing up the Hanon predicament for me as well. I have no idea really how to go about this and am trying to create myself a structure to stand upon so I can learn what I want but to be honest have no idea where to begin. As for my studying the notes at this time, I have a program that has all the notes in each clef from high to low. It allows for the notes within that octave to show on the stave I am merely selecting the appropriate piano key. I understand this isnt constructive for the actual process of sight reading, but I cannot learn to sight read until I can understand the notes. So I have worked on that a couple hours or so a day for the past few days on the treble clef. I have worked from low e to high a and have them memorized with minimal mistakes. I then take a piece (pretty much bachs invention no.1 right now) and attempt to play it while reading the notes. I have not started on the bass clef yet because I am not actually reading anything in specific im merely learning the notes on the stave. I have only done this so far within the treble clef. It was my plan to after I could identify the notes to then work on the bass clef until I could do the same. Then I planned to actually start on sheet music so I wasn't taking five minutes to read on measure. Please understand I am open to any recommendation to changing these plans I am basically taking a shot in the dark. I dont plan to stay with the sight reading program i am only using it as a beginning tool then plan to drop it and work strictly with sheet music. Thanks again for the replies guys, I appreciate it more than you know.

[burzum0727]

Also as a note I have some musical knowledge already.
I know how to form major and minor scales using steps/tones.
I know how to from major and minor chords using the same 1 b3 5 and so on.
I know how arpeggios are formed.
Ive also learned a small amount about fingering scales i.e. switching by thumb 123,123,1234,12345.
Now I have come to the point to where I know I need to work on sight reading but have no idea where to go or what to play...

[mrnhrtkmp210999]

I would like to thank you for your excellent answer first off it is very appreciated.

You're welcome.

When it comes to Bach I am fascinated with the use of counterpoint and would love to hear more about it if you would mind.

I will very briefly say this, since I will go to bed in a moment (I'll reply to you much more detailed first thing tommorow morning:

Counterpoint is a musical structure which consists of two or more voices which are independent in the structural sense of speaking, but which are interdependent harmonically.

That is the most basical description I can give you.

To be honest I was learning the prelude and the minuet simply because I wanted to learn something simple as a motivator so to speak.

Go ahead with this. This is exactly what examplifies my previous note on only play what you love. However, this does not mean that you should play pieces as motivators to keep on playing the pieces that you don't like. Don't play pieces that you don't like. 

As for the RCM level's. What I suggest you to do is to take the first grade (e.g) and choose from every period some pieces. But only choose pieces that you like. Are you not familiar with them? Then listen to them. Learn those pieces (something with which I can help you with) and go on to the next grade. As for the technical part of the grades, I'll give you a more detailed description tomorrow.

About the sight-reading. Don't push this too hard. Sight-reading is helpfull. However, it is not something which you will be using as much as you do in the beginning as you improve in playing the piano. Anyway, I'll also give you a firm grasp on developing your sight-reading skills tommorow.

BW,
Marijn

[burzum0727]

Ok thank you. Your a large help . I appreciate it for now I guess I'll practice those scales.

[mrnhrtkmp210999]

Hi, sorry for the delay in answering, something came in between.

Let us begin with the counterpoint question.

As I already said in my last post, counterpoint is the art of combining two or more voices which are independent structurally, but which are interdependent harmonically. Perhaps the most famous form of contrapuntal composition is the special musical mix which is called the fugue. However, let us first come back to the basical principles of counterpoint, as it can be a very structured way of composing at one time and at the other time it can be regarded unstructurally structured. 

So, the basical principles. Troughout the era's of classical music, in special the renaissance and baroque periods, music that was composed in a contrapuntal manner had to adhere to a number of (sometimes very strict) rules. Contrapuntal music that is regarded to be strict and clung to a lot of rules, this is called 'species' counterpoint.

Let us dive right in to that. Species counterpoint is a manner of contrapuntal composition which was basically a pedagogical tool. In species counterpoint, students would progress trough a number of 'species' whilst mantaining a very simple part. This part was called the 'cantus firmus', which means something like 'firm melody'. There are considered five species:

• Note against note
• Two notes against one note
• Four notes against one note
• Notes offset against each other
• All the species together (free counterpoint)

Now, I could dive in even further and explain to you what all those species contain, but then we would have a post of about two pages long, and it is not really essential to know what they mean as we will explore them in a further post when we will analyze Bach's two-part inventions (if you'd like me to). So let us move on to a short history of counterpoint.

What all composers who've indulged themselves into contrapuntal writing have in common is the fascination for motivic material. They all seem to want to take their motives and experiment with them by turning it upside down or inversed or retrograded (we will dive into that later on). But counterpoint actually derives from the musical vocabulary of the renaissance. It's from the music from the 14th, 15th and 16th century that we've learned the tricks of seeing many different facets of the same musical object. And to the later renaissance, particularly, we owe the concept of motivic compromise. The understanding that when one voice follows another, there must eventually be a certain conciliation.

But as fast as counterpoint developed during these centuries, as fast did it grow out of fashion at the end of the baroque period. With Bach's death, in 1750, the tradition of fugue-writing went underground for a time. It was ignored by the younger generation of his day and the next 30 or 40 years after his death was certainly the low point in the appreciation of the contrapuntal style. In fact, one of Mozart's students one day asked him if he shouldn't learn about counterpoint. Mozart reacted to him: "Young man, you've already been blessed with the most beautiful art there is, the art of melody. You do not need to know about counterpoint."

Never the less, his works were never entirely forgotten and one night in 1782, the then 26-year old, Mozart was shown a copy of Bach's 'Well-Tempered Clavichord' which consisted of 48 preludes and fugues. Mozart was so intrigued that he set to work on a brief fugal period of his own. However, Mozart was remained too much a man of his own day that he was able to get himself to think in a totally linear fashion. He was simply too much busy with things such as the cultivation of melody, the dramatic interruption of unexpected and unprepared harmonic circumstances, which all were contrary to the contrapuntal spirit. It was rather Beethoven who gave the contrapuntal form new live and in his later years, he did a lot of fugue writing in, mostly, his sonatas.

After Beethoven, the fugue and the general principle of counterpoint became more and more ingrained within the style of the romantic composers. A lot of the romantic symphonies contain lots of counterpoint or big orchestral fugues as last movements. And even after that, the fugue remained present.

Well, wasn't that a lot of information right? I'll tell you, to be honest, this is really the smallest tip of the ice berg you can get. However, it will be enough for now. If you would like me to, I'll help you trough analyzing your two inventions in a later post.

In my next post I'll talk about sight-reading.

BW,
Marijn

[mrnhrtkmp210999]

[continuation of previous post]

Then, let us move on to the question of sight-reading.

Sight-reading is, to a certain extent, a helpful skill to explore new music, find out what difficulties that music presents for you, musically and technically. However, it is a skill which can work counterproductive as well. Here I'm talking about the trap you can fall into in which you play from the sheet music by sight-reading trough it, but because you have not practised the piece yet, you will make tons of mistakes. But you simply like the piece so much you go on playing it with all those mistakes, and what will happen? Exactly, those mistakes will be ingrained into you motoric memory and you will never be able to get rid of them again.

Anyway, it's a useful skill to have when beginning to play the piano, so let me explain about it, and I'll warn you. I'm really gonna go back to the basics here, since I don't know what you know about it already.

Let me ask the most simple question: what is music? Since I think you're far past this stage, I'll summarize it very briefly: music is a collection of high and low notes, short and long notes.

The first thing you should do is to learn the basic symbols of music notation. With basic I mean the following: grand staff, bass clef, treble clef. Know that on and in between the lines of the treble clef you have the E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F. In the bass clef you have G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A.

However, this does not mean that those are all the notes which exist. You can go beyond those F and A in the treble and bass clefs, and you can go below those E and G too. In order to do this we use ledger lines. In imagination you can say that a ledger line is a new line on top of the five existing ones of a clef and you can put notes on and in between them as well. However, we do not write a full line, rather a short line which is just enough to write the note on or in between. That's what you should know about the individual clefs. The grand staff is simply the treble clef and bass clef put together.

Next thing to learn is about the notes. The notes that are written on the sheet music tell us which key we should depress on the piano and how long. Every note consists of the following:

• The notehead
• The stem

The note head can be filled (it will be black) or it can be left open (it will be white). The note head also determines which note we are to play at the piano (or another instrument).

The stem is a short line drawn from the note head, either up or down. It doesn't affect the note if the stem is drawn up or down, it's just to make it easier to read the music.

A note can also contain a flag. Notes which have a duration shorter then a quarter note (quaver) - I'll talk about that later - always have a flag as well. How much flags a note contains, determines the duration of that note.

Now, let's take a look at the note durations. Take a look at the list below.

• 1 whole note = 2 half notes
• 1 half note = 2 quarter notes
• 1 quarter note = 2 eight notes
• 1 eight note = 2 16th notes
• 1 16th note = 2 32nd notes
• 1 32nd note = 2 64th notes

You get it? Take a look at the table I inserted below too.

That last one', the 64th note, you won't find too much.

Then, to move on. There also is something called a dot. What is a dot. A dot is, as the name suggests, a dot that is written on the right of the note head. What does a dot do? A dot lengthens the duration of a note  with a half. So if you have a quarter note with a dot. The duration will be 'quarter note + eight note', a dotted half note is 'half note + quarter note' and so on. 

Another way to extend notes durations is by using a tie. A tie is used to bind two durations of notes together. For example, two quarter notes which are tied together, will have the duration of a half note, etc.

I don't know if you're already on this stage so far, can you tell me if you knew this already and do you already know about bars, meter, and so on? Let me know.

BW,
Marijn

[mjames]

Not really bothered to read through all the other posts but my advice when it comes to learning the notes on the clefs - don't info overload yourself. Rather, just "learn how to play" piano. If you move through pieces in order of difficulty you will gradually be exposed to more notes/keys/time signatures in notation. Seriously, take it slow.

Proper "how to play piano" books focused on the classical tradition will slowly and properly introduce you to musical theory. Memorization for all these kinds of stuff work best when you're also playing piano.

I never made an effort to sit down and memorize notes/keys, i just learned them as I learned how to play. Before I knew it I knew every major/minor key signatures, and note on the clefs. It will come to you natural, so there's no sense in treating your novice sightreading process like school tests. Take it easy bro. 

[mrnhrtkmp210999]

Not really bothered to read through all the other posts but my advice when it comes to learning the notes on the clefs - don't info overload yourself. Rather, just "learn how to play" piano. If you move through pieces in order of difficulty you will gradually be exposed to more notes/keys/time signatures in notation. Seriously, take it slow.

Proper "how to play piano" books focused on the classical tradition will slowly and properly introduce you to musical theory. Memorization for all these kinds of stuff work best when you're also playing piano.

I never made an effort to sit down and memorize notes/keys, i just learned them as I learned how to play. Before I knew it I knew every major/minor key signatures, and note on the clefs. It will come to you natural, so there's no sense in treating your novice sightreading process like school tests. Take it easy bro. 

Please don't take this as an attack, but I really don't think you can give anything near a good advise if you dont "bother to read all the other posts".

[mjames]

Please don't take this as an attack, but I really don't think you can give anything near a good advise if you dont "bother to read all the other posts".

Yes I can. I read his post, I understood it, and gave him/her my own opinion. If my intention was to start a discussion with any other poster in this thread (including you) then yes, it's sort of stupid of me not to read your post(s). However that was not and still isn't my intention. What I wanted to do is provide OP my own advice based on my own experiences.

[burzum0727]

Ok well thank you again that was quite informative. I had no idea Mozart said that about contrapuntal music I find that fascinating. Its also interesting to me to learn that of Beethoven. I'm just discovering what contrapuntal music is but Bach and Beethoven have always been my favorites in all of music. I think that is a good starting point for what I would like to learn. The more complex in my eyes the better .

When it comes to the notes I know about ledger lines and note lengths. I know up till 16ths as I played guitar but from tabs not sheet music. I do have to practice on rhythm more . The information of dots and flags was all new to me, so we can go from there.

All this being said I'm not sure what I should play to fit what musical direction I want to go in. Or do I not need to worry of those things yet just get a basic understanding? When I looked through rcm's repertoire I didn't see anything I recognized as pieces I would be interested in, any recommendations.

As for the small argument guys, let us agree to disagree please , I'm only here for to learn of music in its entirety and would prefer not to waste valuable time reading through pointless things. You guys both have valid points and I can see where you are coming from but let us please set that aside For the sake of music.

[mjames]

I wasn't sure before, but now I am; you're an absolute beginner at this, right? You can try and read up more information on notation and music theory but there's honestly no need to rush. You'll have time for that when you actually reach that level.

The problem with adult beginners is that they usually tend to want to move too fast. It's still far too early for you to worry about reading the entire notes, let alone introductory contrupuntal music like Bach's inventions for example. For now you should worry about getting familiar with basic hand positions, basic/fundamental fingering, basic articulation(legato, staccato) to help with phrasing, familiarize with the piano geography, and very basic notation. There's honestly so much to cover for beginners. Crawl before you walk.

[mrnhrtkmp210999]

My favorite is Bach, he always has been. However, it is not smart to derogate your musical horizon to only Bach and Beethoven. Even though these two composers are perhaps the most important and influencial composers who ever lived, this doesn't mean they are the only ones who brought some good to music. Anyway, Bach has always proven to be a good composers to start with. And I agree on "the more complex, the better".

As for the sight-reading. I see that you have a firm understanding of the 'basics', so I suggest you leave the inventions for what they are right now and first start sight-reading trough Bach's Little Preludes. If you'd want me to, I can send you a copy of some which I think are really helpful in gaining sight-read experience. I played them a lot when I was about five years old.

What exactly do you mean with your musical direction? Don't you know which direction you want to go into? Because that's something only you can find out.

As for the argumenting. I know, I just wanted to make sure you weren't given any fanthomed advise.

BW,
Marijn

[burzum0727]

Yes I want those preludes if you'd could please. Very much so. As a musical direction I know absolutely where I want to go, I mean how to get there I have no.idea lol.

[mrnhrtkmp210999]

Okay. Well, look in the attachments for the copies. Those are just some off them. Now, i don't suggest that you learn all of them. Just listen to them on YouTube, or something like that, decide which ones you like or not and then come back to me, I'll work you trough them. By the time you learned some of these, you should have a firm basic sight-reading skill. If not, we will try something else. But I'm pretty sure you will.

So you want to go into the classical music direction then? By the way, can I ask you how old you are?

BW,
Marijn

[burzum0727]

Ok thank you very much! I absolutely want to go in the classical direction. I am sure some of these will work I was listening to some of Bach's little preludes and like some of their sounds. I am 26 years old. How old are you if your as young as your profile states I am pleasantly surprised and commend you.

[burzum0727]

Ok after a listen to them all I've chosen 934, 935, 925, 926!!!!!, and 929.

Oh and 930

[burzum0727]

Oh well it seems I missed your post Marijn. I didn't see the one about my beginnings being discovered . Well I guess I'll find information on fingerings. I have studied legato and staccato so I can practice those. I guess I could just play around with them.on my pieces. I've printed off 926 and have started it. I have a very basic understanding of simple fingerings like c major and g major scales. Should I stop the music playing right now and focus on that or do both??? Lol give me some homework!!!

[mrnhrtkmp210999]

Okay, good choices. It's very balanced. Some are advanced, and some are easier.

Let's talk about the difficulty order of your selection. From my experience and that from others at my conservatory I'd go for this as following:

• BWV 929 in G minor
• BWV 934 in C minor
• BWV 926 in D minor
• BWV 935 in D minor
• BWV 925 in D major
• BWV 930 in G minor

However, these kind of lists always are subjective, at this stage that's something you should't worry about yet in my opinion. So, let us dive right in and take the BWW 929 in G minor. By the way, do you know about keys already (C minor/major, etc.)?

Prelude in G minor, BWV 929:

First, a little bit of background history - Bach wrote this prelude, along with the rest of a set of 18 preludes, around 1717-1720. As can be seen by the length of this pieces, they were not intended to be performed in public, and were composed purely as pedagogical pieces. They are very short, but are very useful if one would like to improve his hand independancy and understanding of solving technical problems.

About the structure - This prelude is not so much for a prelude, as it is a trio. A trio to a menuet by a contemporary called Stölzel, to be precise. A trio, in it's most basic form, is a sort of interlude in between the first repeat of a menuet and the second repeat. It's, like the menuet, usually in 3/4 time. If we look at the structure of the piece, we can see it has three 'voices'. The bass voice (bass) in the left hand. The lower voice (alto) in the right hand. The higher voice (soprano) in the right hand. Now this piece does involve in a little bit of counterpoint already.

As we can see, the bass voice begins with two bars of six eight notes after which it goes over to a pattern of three quarter notes. This pattern is mantained by the left hand troughout the end of the first half. After the first three bars, the soprano voice takes over the eight note pattern and alternates this patern with the alto voice. Take a moment, find and notate the spots were the soprano voice has this eight note pattern, and were the alto voice does. Also note that, when the eight note pattern is played by one voice, the other one holds down one note.

In the second half, we see the same kind of alternation between voices: the left hand starts with the eight note pattern and the right hand with the quarter notes. After this it switches down to bass voice three quarter notes. Alto and soprano voice alternation of depressed note and eight note pattern.

Now, what I want you to do, is to learn each voice seperately. In order to do this you'll need a copy of this music with each voice on a seperate staff. I've made one for you as fast as possible in a notation software and included it.

The piece is exactly 18 bars long. I wan't you to work on two bars every day for every voice. So work trough every voice every day, but only two bars a day. You can tackle them as follows:

- Play trough them really very slow to find out how it sounds. Once you're confident that you know how those two bars sound, go on and put your full attention to the fingering I included. It is just a suggested fingering, adjust the thing that don't work for you.

- Now I want you to ingrain the final fingering, by playing trough those two bars (voice seperately) a few times, until you can play it without the sheet music. If you come to that point, move on.

- I want you to do this for the two bars of each of the three voices. Don't stop until you know them by heart.

The next day you will experience one out of two things: you still know by heart how to play the two bars. Thats great! Move on to the next two bars of each voice. Or you will find that you don't know it anymore. That's fine too. Just repeat EXACTLY the procedure you did yesterday to learn them again. Until the day comes that you know how it goes when you get up.

I want you to work trough this piece in this manner and then I think, in about something more or less then a week, you will have learned it. But it is very important to do exactly what said above.

About the PDF:

The fingering where there is a small line in between the 3 and 4 means you have to switch fingers on that key whilst keeping it depressed. That sounds complicated, but try it out. It isn't that hard.

That two fat lines with two dots right to them means you have to play the section that came before that (from the beginning) again. So you play from the beginning a first time, then you come to bar 7 after that you play bar 8 and then bars 1-7 again, except the second time you play bar 9 instead of bar 8 after bar 7. You get it? You do the same with the second half.

Well, that should get you on the way.

BW,
Marijn

[burzum0727]

Well I have decided to drop that piece I'm not very fond of it after all I'm going to go 934