What's so difficult about Bach Toccata from Partita 6 in e minor?

[richardb]

I'm at the level of playing Bach Inventions and Sinfonias, having done only one Sinfonia (no. 11 in g minor.)  I also play some of the easier movements from the French Suites.  I saw this Toccata rated 8+, is this primarily because it is so long?  In general is length of the piece a factor in rating the difficulty level?  I'm learning Sinfonia 3 in D major now, which is rated level 6 here, but to me this Sinfonia seems harder than the Toccata.  I'm just an amateur who loves Bach's music, so maybe I should just ignore the ratings and play what I like.   But I really would like to know why this piece is considered so difficult?  Since I don't have a teacher, I appreciate any help or insight I can get from this forum.  Thanks.

[glennross]

Hi Richard(?)

You should always play what you like, and not base your choice of repertoire on a gradings list. However, if you say that the Three-Part Invention No. 3 is harder than the 6th Partita's Toccata, I don't think you have really looked into what certain kind of technical difficulties are involved in the Toccata. And, of course, it has a long, very exhausting fugue - that is, if it is played right - in between of two 'toccata-like' sections, which can also be difficult because of the long chromatic progressions, that is, in a interpretative kind of word.

However, would you come to like this first movement more than the Three-Part Invention, you should really play it. How to overcome it's technical difficulties, can be asked here on the forum too, of course.

BW,
Glenn

[richardb]

Hi Glenn,

Wow, I didn't even realize it had a fugue in there.  Thanks for pointing out the structure: toccata part, then fugue, then toccata again. It looks like the fugue part starts on measure 27 and goes to measure 88.  I guess I just looked at the beginning of the piece (maybe the ending too), and didn't see all that counterpoint and polyphony that are in the three-part inventions.  I'm working through the 2 part and 3 part inventions with the goal of being able to play a fugue someday.  There are plenty of pieces I love at the grade 5/6 or grade 6/7 level.  I think I'll save this one for later.

Thanks for your response.

Richard
 

   

[glennross]

Hi again,

It's fine to work trough the Inventions as they will give you a firm grasp on two- and three-part counterpoint, harmony, and composition in general (if your interested in that), however, there are lot's of fugues which are, in the sense of complexity, much less difficult than the three-part inventions and by the way, the three-part inventions ARE in a way, some kind of fugues. But not quite. Anyway, would you like a list with recommendations for fugues?

BW,
Glenn

[richardb]

Hi again,

It's fine to work trough the Inventions as they will give you a firm grasp on two- and three-part counterpoint, harmony, and composition in general (if your interested in that), however, there are lot's of fugues which are, in the sense of complexity, much less difficult than the three-part inventions and by the way, the three-part inventions ARE in a way, some kind of fugues. But not quite. Anyway, would you like a list with recommendations for fugues?

BW,
Glenn

Yes, I would like a list of fugue recommendations.  I've heard/read that the c minor fugue from Book 1 of the WTC is a good beginning fugue.  Looking forward to seeing the list.

[glennross]

Yes, a lot of people say that's a good starter and it's not too bad, however, my opinion is quite different. Here's my list, I started with the, imo, easiest ones and I've gone on to the level you're at right now. Here you go:

The Well-Tempered Clavier Book I:

• Fugue in e minor, BWV 855
• Fugue in d minor, BWV 851
• Fugue in F-sharp Major, BWV 858
• Fugue in c minor, BWV 847
• Fugue in C major, BWV 846
• Fugue in D major, BWV 850
• Fugue in A-flat Major, BWV 862
• Fugue in g-sharp minor, BWV 863
• Fugue in F major, BWV 856
• Fugue in B-flat Major, BWV 866
• Fugue in B major, BWV 868
• Fugue in b-flat minor, BWV 867

The Well-Tempered Clavier Book II

• Fugue in E-flat Major, BWV 876
• Fugue in f minor, BWV 881
• Fugue in E major, BWV 878
• Fugue in d minor, BWV 875
• Fugue in C major, BWV 870
• Fugue in G major, BWV 884
• Fugue in B-flat Major, BWV 890

Those are just from the easiest too less easy. Anyway, never get too caught up in the idea of difficulty orders. And are you already familiar with some contrapuntal theory and on how to learn and memorize it?

BW,
Glenn
[/list]

[richardb]

Hi Glenn, 

Thanks a million for that list.

And are you already familiar with some contrapuntal theory and on how to learn and memorize it?

Maybe a little.  It was very kind and generous of you to take the time to make up that list.  But if you'd want to say a few words about contrapuntal theory and how to learn and memorize it, I'm sure I (and maybe others here) would benefit from it and it would be much appreciated.

I'm so psyched to start learning fugues.  I'll start with either the e minor from Book I or the f minor from Book II.  That one, the f minor, was in a book my parents had called "The Library of Piano Classics."  I used to sight read a lot of pieces from that book, to get an idea of what the piece was like.  I'm a good sight reader but a poor memorizer.  Now I'm trying to memorize almost everything I play, and to really master the piece, and not just hack through the notes sight reading it like I used to do.

[jacobsterling]

Hi,

Just so you know. That glenn really lied to everyone on this thread called "Practice in Warsaw" and some guys found out so he's probably not going to respond anymore on this forum. However, I've read through his posts, and he makes some good points about practicing.

Anyway, most of it is borrowed from a senoir member called Bernhard, and I'm really into this guy. But since he isn't really active anymore on this forum, I am willing to summarize the process of learning a fugue. Would you want me to?

Jacob

[richardb]

Hi,

Just so you know. That glenn really lied to everyone on this thread called "Practice in Warsaw" and some guys found out so he's probably not going to respond anymore on this forum. However, I've read through his posts, and he makes some good points about practicing.

Anyway, most of it is borrowed from a senoir member called Bernhard, and I'm really into this guy. But since he isn't really active anymore on this forum, I am willing to summarize the process of learning a fugue. Would you want me to?

Jacob

Sure, go for it.  I'm also a huge Bernhard fan. Reading Bernhard's old posts here is what prompted me to become a member.  Thanks for the info, Jacob. 

Richard

[richardb]

I'm just trying to get better at piano, and I'm willing to learn - from you, from Glenn (whether he is or isn't channeling Bernhard) or whomever. 

[jacobsterling]

I'm just trying to get better at piano, and I'm willing to learn - from you, from Glenn (whether he is or isn't channeling Bernhard) or whomever. 

Yes, I was just saying that Glenn most likely isn't going to respond anymore. But anyway, I'll give you the, in my opinion, best way to learn a fugue.

As you may know, a fugue is a contrapuntal composition, the opposite is not true, every contrapuntal work is not a fugue. Now, what do we know about contrapuntal music: it conists of two or more layers which are indepedent structurally, but interdependent harmonically. So, to summarize: It consists of two or more 'voices' which all have to be followed simultaniously. In keyboard music, these 'voices' usually are no more than five, but four voices is what you will be seeing most of the time.

Now, you can't expect yourself to be able to follow all these voices simultaniously right away, for that, you will have to do some preperative work before. That is, analysis. So what I would like you to do, is pick one of these fugues, I suggest to pick an easier one first, and then come back to me. I'll work you through.

Best wishes,
Jacob

[richardb]

Thanks Jacob,  I went and looked at that "Practice in Warsaw" thread, and wow, I think you're right about Glenn.   

Richard

[jacobsterling]

Thanks Jacob,  I went and looked at that "Practice in Warsaw" thread, and wow, I think you're right about Glenn.   

Richard

Yeah, right? Anyway, which fugue will you choose mister?

Jacob

[richardb]

As I said

I'll start with either the e minor from Book I or the f minor from Book II. 

I'll do the f minor from book II.

[jacobsterling]

As I saidI'll do the f minor from book II.

All right, good choice. Now, I strongly recommend you to get an Urtext score. If you're not able to, let me know, I'll post a copy for you. I also recommend to annotate my notes in your sheet. Since I don't know how advanced you are in theory, I will go into the tinyest details. So let me dive right in.

Analysis: So what's all this analysis for? It is very important to do it before even coming close to the piano to learn any fugue, so the performer is familiar with all the voices, overall structure and therefore will not mess up the complex structure of a fugue. I'll work you through this analysis, so later on you can do it yourself.

1. What's the key of the piece: The key of this piece is F minor? How do we know? Because Bach told us so. Yes, of course, but we can really know for sure by first looking at the accidentals in the very beginning of the piece: four flats. That can mean A-flat Major or F minor. We know it's F minor by looking at the last measure were we see two F's one octave apart. This is applicable to most music from the Western classical music up to 1880 or so.

2. What's the time signature: The time signature is 2/4. What does that mean? It means that there will fit two quarter notes in each measure.

3. How many voices does this fugue has: This fugue has 3 voices. In contrapuntal terms that means that this piece consists of 3 melodic lines which are independent structurally, and interdependent harmonically. So they will all go there own way in terms of rhythm, but harmonically they will all sound right.

Those are the basics of analyzing this fugue. Now let's dive into some more complex analyzation:

The theme or subject of this fugue is stated in the first three bars. Look at it. Remember what it looks like. If you go and look for the subject, you will find that there are 9 entries of this subject. In more complex fugues you will find trick which are done with the subject like: augementation, diminuation, inversion, retrogration. But in this fugue, we don't find any. This is, apart from the not-so difficult technical aspect, why the fugue is a simple one.

Now, I want you to go and look for all those subject entries and mark them in a certain colour by drawing a coloured line trough the noteheads of the subject.

Next, you see that the after the second voice enters the fugue and states the subject it starts on a C instead of F? That is the dominant. The dominant is the fifth scale degree of a diatonic scale. If the subject is stated and the other voice answers by stating it again in the dominant, that answer is called a 'real answer'.

Do you also notice that the first voice goes it's own way after it stated the subject as first? It indeed does go it's own way, however, it is also contrasting to the answer of the second voice. You follow me? So it makes sure that it doesn't just consists of eight-notes too, like the theme, in fact, in the whole fugue it is made sure as much as possible that if in one voice there are eight-notes, the others will be playing either 16th-notes or quarter notes. This simple contrast also makes this a simple fugue. In a lot of fugues you wil encounter this contrasting section again. If it indeed is encountered again, this contrasting section is called the countersubject. However, in this fugue, the contrasting section is not encountered again, and this fugue therefore does not contain a countersubject.

Notice that the first voice begins this fugue after which the second voice enters. After the second voice 'answered' the key of C minor is established and therefore, a little modulatory section finds place in which the fugue modulates back from C minor to F minor. The establishment of F minor is done by the third entry of the subject in the third voice. After this third voice stated the subject for the third time a new section begins. This first section from bars 1-14 is called the exposition of the fugue.

Let's move on. After this exposition, we find a section of what is called 'free-counterpoint'. I'll tell you, this section takes from bars 15-24 after which the subject makes an entry in the first voice again. This 10 bar section can be divided into two sections too. Bars 15-16 and 17-24. In bars 15-16 the third voice repeats the ending of the subject twice and meanwhile the two top voices are contrasting this. After that a new figure is seen in bars 17-24 where the bass voice and top voices switch between each other in terms of eight- and sixteenth-notes. I think you can see what I mean. This figure is seen a few more times throughout the course of this fugue. Okay, so that section from bar 15-24 is called an episode. An episode is the section of free-counterpoint between the entries of the fugue's subject. So, this is our episode 2, because bars 8-11 is also an episode.

Well, right now my pianostreet is crashing, so let me know if you understand all this and I will continue in a later post...

[richardb]

I have the dover edition of Bach's WTC.  I also have the attached pdf which I think I got from IMSLP.  Not sure if either one of them is an Urtext.

And yes, I do understand what you wrote.  Thanks for the detailed analysis.

Richard

[jacobsterling]

Yes that PDF one is Urtext, about the dover one I'm not sure. However, that BGA edition from IMSLP is, imo, very bad readable so I will copy my Henle edition and post it in the near future .

Anway to move on, since we were not finished yet.

I ended my last post with saying that bars 15-24 were a free-counterpoint episode. So I'm picking up where I left of.

After this episode, which is our second one, the subject enters again in the first voice. Meanwhile, the lower voice contrasts, but as you can see, no countersubject, since it is not used earlier. After the first voice stated the theme again, the second voice enters directly after it, stating the subject for the fifth time in this fugue. After this a new episode begins which lasts from bars 33-40. As you can see, the same figuration is used in this third episode as in the second episode. It also lasts for the same amount of measures.

After this third episode, the subject enters again in bar 41 in the lower voice, again with the top voices contrasting but no countersubject. After this the fourth episode begins, however, this time, unlike the second and third, another figuration is used. Now the figuration looks more like that from the first episode. Look at it. Those up-and-down scales sections in the lower voice and contrasting eight-notes in the top voices. That is seen in the first episode too. Now this episode lasts from bars. 44-49. But after bar 49 there is no subject again? That's right, but te figuration changes so drastically in bar 50, that I like to divide them. So after bars 44-49, our fourth episode, a new episode begins.

This episode, our fifth one, imitates the first bar of our subject in the middle voice, whilst contrasting sixteenth-notes are running up-and-down again in the top voice. Now you notice that the lowest voice is firmly staying at that C whilst the middle voice is harmonically changing? That is to create some tension before we go to the next episode and it is also called a tonal pedal. This episode lasts from bar 50-54. After this episode, our sixth episode occurs.

The sixth episode is a very long one. It lasts from bars 55-71 in which all the material from the previous episodes is used again. First in bars 56-58 something new, the first measure of the theme, but not anymore with that tonal pedal. Then, in bars 59-61 the well-known up-and-down running motive in the lower voice, contrasted by those eight-notes in the top voices. Then in bars 62-65 the imitation of bars 56-58 again but now in the C7 chord. Then in bars 66-71 the most well-known figuration which was first introduced in bars 17-24 again. After this long episode, which is our sixth one, we see the subject entering again in the top voice. After it stated the subject for the eight time in the top voice, it is for the ninth and last time stated in the middle voice. After this our last episode begins.

It consists of our well known bars 17-24 figuration, however, this time it is accompanied by a tonal pedal. This episode ends with a very simple IV-V-I cadence.

Well, I suggest you mark all the subjects in a certain colour and also write down where all the episodes begin.

Now, to move on to the learning part of this fugue:

1. Listen to it, and preferably to a great many interpretations and some harpsichordists as well. Listen to it as long as is needed to be know how it sounds in your head.

2. If you have a notation program, write this fugue down, but write every voice on a different staff. You will be learning the piece from this score. If you don't have a notation software, let me know, I'll do it for you.

3. I want you to follow this score a lot of times whilst listening to the music. The best suggestion of interpretations I can give you is Glenn Gould since his playing of fugues is very transparent and clean. Follow another voice each time.

4. Go to the piano and learn each voice seperately. At this stage you're gonna have to figure out a fingering that works for you. Take your time for this, you will have to know all of the three voices by heart. You must be able to play each seperate voice whilst having a conversation. If you're at this stage, you're ready for the next one.

5. Take two of the three voices, it doesn't matter which ones, and play them together. Do this a lot of times until you can play every combination by heart. Do not proceed until you can do this.

6. Now play all of the three voices all together. In the beginning this will be hard, but because you did all the analyzing and the previous steps (I suppose you did), eventually everything will come together. Do not give up at this point. If you're making a lot of mistakes, which shouldn't be happening at this stage, or if you're messing up the fingering, which also shouldn't happen at this stage, you will have to play it slower. Once you really mastered the fugue, play it as much as possible to never forget it anymore.

Hope that helps,

BW,
Jacob

[richardb]

Hi Jacob,

I'm responding by private message because the thread started with the difficulties of Toccata  from Partita 6 and ended up being all about this Bach fugue.  I think we should either start a new thread, or just communicate privately.

Anyway, in analyzing the score I think I've found all 9 places the theme occurs.  They are
1. measures 1-3
2. m.5-7 starting C C C in the middle voice
3. m.12-14 starting F F F in the bottom (bass) voice
4. m.25-27 starting Ab, Ab, Ab in the top voice
5. m.29-31 starting Eb, Eb, Eb, in the middle voice
6. m. 41-43 starting F F F in the bottom voice
7. m.51-53 starting F F F in the middle voice
8. m.51-53 starting Bb Bb, Bb in the top voice
9. m.75-77 starting F F F in the middle voice.

This was fun. Kind of like a word search. 

One other thing.  I downloaded and am trying to learn the notation software Musescore.  Are you familiar with this?  You said 

If you have a notation program, write this fugue down, but write every voice on a different staff. You will be learning the piece from this score.

You kindly offered to do this for me, but I want to learn how to do this myself.  I still need to go through more of what you wrote in your last post.  Thanks for all your help.

Richard

[jacobsterling]

If you'll start a new thread on this one. I'll reply.