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Topic: In-between note the same as the tied notes.  (Read 2090 times)

Offline oldlearner

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In-between note the same as the tied notes.
on: September 16, 2015, 06:07:44 AM
I’ve been teaching myself piano for 2 months. One of the pieces I’m learning is a piano arrangement of Ástor Piazzolla’s Libertango. In the 2 different scores I have, there are sections where tied notes with notes between them include the same note (name & pitch) as the ones which are tied. I've asked someone who took piano lessons for 6 years and she has never seen this kind notation before and doesn't comprehend it. 

I understand that tied notes are held for the sum of their beats and that the in-between notes are played while the tied notes are held. But how do you play an eighth note when that same note is already being held for 6-8 beats? I’ve watched performances on YouTube but they’re so fast that I’m unable to make out what’s happening in the relevant bars.

Could someone please explain this?

I tried to paste several bars as examples but that didn't work out. I've attached the 2 scores and pasted their urls.

Piazzolla - Libertango for solo piano
https://pop-sheet-music.com/Files/6279a9e7eb135b13b93d9a88b74c2c28.pdf
See bars 19-20, 23-24, 57-58, 61-62

Piazzolla - Libertango for solo piano arr Okonsar
https://pop-sheet-music.com/Files/2a85cced569af4f74e62e0b2e46f45a1.pdf
See bars 20-21, 24-25, 58-59, 60-61, 62-63, 64-65

As an aside, in bar 17 of Piazzolla - Libertango for solo piano, E3 is played while E4 is held. That's quite a stretch for me and not so easy to play at speed with the other notes. The limit of my finger span is from D3 to E4. Is this small or average? Does this mean that someone with a shorter span would be unable to play this section?

Offline adodd81802

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Re: In-between note the same as the tied notes.
Reply #1 on: September 16, 2015, 08:10:14 AM
Hi thanks for your questions. I'm no expert but taking a look at the piece, I can see the tie's you're on about.

It's physically not possible. So i'd just tie until the repeat of the note then tie that until the end of the tie if that makes sense. I like yourself can only reach a 9th (10th around the notes) so I also do not have a big hand span. It makes a huge difference, evidence of this can be shown in some of Rachmaninoff's pieces which for me are impossible to play in the traditional sense.

Tie's are interesting and often do cause a stretch of the hand. I'd say in no circumstances stretch your hand or play uncomfortably. I'm not familiar with the piece but I wonder if you can use pedal on areas where you're expected to tie octaves. Or simply don't tie at all. You have options, there's no point going back to the piece and trying to convince yourself that it will work for you if it simply doesn't.

In response to your last question if somebody had an even shorter span i'd say simply don't tie at all and rely on pedal and accent the notes to stand out. If you weren't entirely happy with the sound, move on and play different pieces.

Hope that helps
"England is a country of pianos, they are everywhere."

Offline michael_c

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Re: In-between note the same as the tied notes.
Reply #2 on: September 16, 2015, 09:15:31 AM
The first thing to understand here is that these are arrangements. I don't know for what combination of instruments Piazzolla originally composed this piece, but you could for example imagine a violin playing the melody while an accordion plays the accompaniment. In this case the fact that the violin holds long notes while the accompaniment sometimes hits the same notes is not a problem.

When such a situation arises in a solo piano piece, you need to try out different solutions and make a decision that gives the best musical result. You may use pedal (including the sostenuto pedal if your piano has one), you may change the accompaniment figuration so that it doesn't hit the melody note, you may simply shorten the melody note...

The more you advance in piano literature, and particularly in transcriptions, the more you will come across things that, taken absolutely literally, are actually impossible to play. From the notation you can work out how the music should sound to your taste: what is melody, what is accompaniment, which voices should be brought out. It's up to you as a pianist to find the best way of creating that sound.

Neither of these arrangements lies easily for the piano. They are, quite honestly, way too hard for somebody who has been learning for two months. I would look for a simpler arrangement, or maybe find a backing track to which you could play the melody.

Offline oldlearner

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Re: In-between note the same as the tied notes.
Reply #3 on: September 16, 2015, 10:50:56 AM
Thanks for the very helpful advice, options and information provided in each of these replies.
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So i'd just tie until the repeat of the note then tie that until the end of the tie if that makes sense.
That does make sense and is one of the things I've experimented with.
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I don't know for what combination of instruments Piazzolla originally composed this piece, but you could for example imagine a violin playing the melody while an accordion plays the accompaniment.
Piazzolla played this piece with various combinations of instruments with his bandoneón taking centre stage, and often a second bandoneón.
Those held notes seem to make a much bigger difference to the overall sound with instruments other than piano. I've experimented using organ, accordion, violin, saxophone and other sounds and sometimes simply devoting both hands to these notes, holding the tied note with a finger on one hand and playing the in-between notes with the other.
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Neither of these arrangements lies easily for the piano.
Thanks for confirming that. I’ve seen pianists playing this brilliantly at great speed and have probably been somewhat deceived.
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They are, quite honestly, way too hard for somebody who has been learning for two months. I would look for a simpler arrangement, or maybe find a backing track to which you could play the melody.
I agree, but... I’ve been playing only the easier version and simplified it by not playing any chords, playing the same melody with both hands (different octaves), and sometimes use a drum track for the rhythm. Doing this, I’m able to manage the first 16 bars reasonably well at moderate speed (that’s before getting to the tied notes).

Offline dcstudio

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Re: In-between note the same as the tied notes.
Reply #4 on: September 16, 2015, 02:56:02 PM
  I’ve been playing only the easier version and simplified it by not playing any chords, playing the same melody with both hands (different octaves), and sometimes use a drum track for the rhythm. Doing this, I’m able to manage the first 16 bars reasonably well at moderate speed (that’s before getting to the tied notes).

you are playing the melody only with both hands?   :-X








 

Offline oldlearner

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Re: In-between note the same as the tied notes.
Reply #5 on: September 16, 2015, 04:34:33 PM
Quote
you are playing the melody only with both hands?
Yes. Do you think I shouldn't be doing that?

Here's why. In the score the left hand mostly plays a rapid, repetitive "drum beat" of different chords which is presently beyond my capabilities to coordinate with the right hand melody. I might manage it using a single chord but I'm not sure that's the best use for the left hand and I'd rather leave to a drum track from a MIDI of the piece, at least at this early stage of learning. Playing the melody with both hands in different octaves with different instrument combinations for each hand provides an ensemble sound to the piece closer to the composer's intention that to me sounds better than purely a solo piano arrangement. There are sections in the piece where both hands play melody and I reckon I'm also preparing the left hand for those. It seems to be a work suited to improvisation and a variety of instruments, so I'm approaching it in that spirit. But I'm open to suggestions and other points of view.

As michael_c pointed out, these arrangements are "way too hard for somebody who has been learning for two months", and I'm gradually working my way into the easier one.

Offline keypeg

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Re: In-between note the same as the tied notes.
Reply #6 on: September 17, 2015, 02:11:07 AM
It appears that this was not composed for piano originally.  Here is one performance on it.


Here's a piano performance.

You can see this pianist hold down the tied note with his pinky while playing the other notes with other fingers in those spots, and ofc hear it played that way.

You want to play this after two months of piano?  :o

Ooh - this is cool!

Offline oldlearner

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Re: In-between note the same as the tied notes.
Reply #7 on: September 17, 2015, 05:40:44 AM
Thanks for the videos. I have no illusions that I’ll ever be able to play it as well as that pianist or the keyboardists below. I’m merely at the beginning of what I expect to be a long process of learning to play this piece reasonably competently. I’m thinking more like 2 years than 2 months.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMwcgwADtew
At this link is the music of the original recording and the following information:
Original Version recorded in Milan, May 1974.
Musicians:
• Astor Piazzolla: bandoneón, arranger, conductor
• Felice Da Viá: piano
• Felice Da Viá, Gianni Zilioli: Hammond organ C3
• Gianni Zilioli: marimba
• Marlene Kessik: G flute
• Hugo Heredia, Gianni Bedori: C flute
• Giuseppe Prestipino (Pino Presti): bass guitar
• Tullio De Piscopo: drums
• Filippo Daccó: acoustic & electric guitar
• Andrea Poggi: timpani
• Tullio De Piscopo, Andrea Poggi: percussions
• Umberto Benedetti Michelangeli: first violin
• Elsa Parravicini: first viola
• Paolo Salvi: first cello
https://<iframe width="560" height="315" src="[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/dMwcgwADtew[/youtube]" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Here are 2 videos featuring Piazzolla himself, followed by 4 solo keyboard arrangements I really like.

Piazzolla, Yoyo Ma & ensemble
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUAPf_ccobc
https://<iframe width="420" height="315" src="[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/RUAPf_ccobc[/youtube]" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Piazzolla & ensemble
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqr6K0ZCVWU
https://<iframe width="420" height="315" src="[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/eqr6K0ZCVWU[/youtube]" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Kyoko Yamamoto solo piano
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCMR_MiVWOg
https://<iframe width="420" height="315" src="[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/pCMR_MiVWOg[/youtube]" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Julio Mazziotti solo piano
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78aJxKJpp0w
https://<iframe width="560" height="315" src="[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/78aJxKJpp0w[/youtube]" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Chiho Sunamoto solo keyboard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD0d9Z5LMDA
https://<iframe width="420" height="315" src="[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/nD0d9Z5LMDA[/youtube]" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Jimlefreak solo keyboard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JckmeSQXb0
https://<iframe width="420" height="315" src="[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/_JckmeSQXb0[/youtube]" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The videos I attempted to embed using the Insert Flash tags and the Embed code from YouTube don't display in Preview, so I'm doubtful they will display after Posting.

Offline oldlearner

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Re: In-between note the same as the tied notes.
Reply #8 on: September 17, 2015, 05:43:50 AM
Would someone kindly tell me what I did wrong when embedding the videos and how to do it correctly? I couldn't find that information on the site and took a guess.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: In-between note the same as the tied notes.
Reply #9 on: September 17, 2015, 04:03:03 PM
Yes. Do you think I shouldn't be doing that?



playing only the melody and doubling it with the left hand..  there are specific circumstances that call for that--in latin music for instance... percussion patterns are played an octave apart with both hands.

however, it would probably be wise for you to play chords or even a single note bass line instead of the melody.  If you plan on becoming a serious student of the piano.. there is virtually no solo piano piece that is arranged that way.  

the great thing about the piano is you can play big thick rich chords...that's not possible on say, the saxophone --so it is expected of a pianist to not only play the melody but to play some sort of support pattern at the same time.

I am sure it sounds cool...  and do it all you want... just learn to make your left hand a little more independent, that's all.  You won't be able to progress much further if you continue to play this way.

Offline oldlearner

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Re: In-between note the same as the tied notes.
Reply #10 on: September 18, 2015, 03:17:48 AM
Thanks dcstudio for the explanation. Playing different notes of different durations with different hands is what I’m finding most difficult, which is probably commonplace among early beginners. I practice this in exercises and simple pieces, but following your advice will introduce it to Libertango. Readers of this thread should be aware that Libertango (and Ravel’s infamous Bolero) are the only non-beginner “aspirational” arrangements I’m attempting, which together occupy no more than 10% of my practice time. Bolero has been limited to the right hand, but as that becomes sufficiently proficient playing the medley I’ll introduce a base line of single notes and eventually chords and that relentless drum track.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: In-between note the same as the tied notes.
Reply #11 on: September 18, 2015, 05:35:58 AM
Thanks dcstudio for the explanation. Playing different notes of different durations with different hands is what I’m finding most difficult, which is probably commonplace among early beginners. I practice this in exercises and simple pieces, but following your advice will introduce it to Libertango. Readers of this thread should be aware that Libertango (and Ravel’s infamous Bolero) are the only non-beginner “aspirational” arrangements I’m attempting, which together occupy no more than 10% of my practice time. Bolero has been limited to the right hand, but as that becomes sufficiently proficient playing the medley I’ll introduce a base line of single notes and eventually chords and that relentless drum track.

Don't feel like you are doing something wrong...  you are a beginner -- for now you need to play what makes you happy.  Actually if you pay close attention to the rhythm when you are playing your melodies...and you make them sound musical...than what you are doing will help you ...

just be thinking about adding something more with your left hand :)
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