Accuracy issues with underthumb on fast runs

[yadeehoo]

Hi,

I find it hard to get some passages in muscle memory regarding the right hand underthumb on the white keys. I miss the right note a lot.

Any tips ?

[adodd81802]

Hi there.

This is way to broad of a question to be honest. Without seeing you play and without seeing the struggle it's almost impossible to experiment with ideas and pinpoint.

The Thumb under technique itself is questionable, when you say miss the note do you not reach it do you go to far?

I can only assume you're doing it too fast, have not practiced the correct motion and have unfortunately set in your muscle memory the "wrong notes" or not properly identified the area of the note in which your thumb needs to be to be accurate. It is very difficult to undo without time and patience.

Scenario for you (There could be many examples)

Imagine throwing a dart at a board, now it doesn't matter where you hit the board as long as you hit the board. You'll practice making sure you hit the board and nothing else (walls or windows!)

It's quite a big target so say you miss 1 in 10 times but eventually you get really good and hit the board every single time, occasionally the bullseye (middle), but mostly all around the board the top, bottom etc

Then somebody tells you that you actually are only able to hit bullseye and not the rest of the board. Suddenly rather than missing 1 in 10 times you miss 9 in 10 times because you haven't practiced hitting that precise spot you've just practiced all around and randomly hitting it.

The point here, is you're only as accurate as your practicing allows you to be. Your brain doesn't think about the width of every key and every distance as you play, it instinctively remembers based on what you tell it, and what you tell it has to be accurate.

I don't know about your technique, there could be nothing wrong, there could be many things wrong (thumb under too far, wrists twisted or too high, arms flare out, raised shoulders etc etc) But assuming you feel no pain in what you're doing, go back to basics, use a metronome if you have one and practice very slowly, don't practice runs up the keyboard, because the rest seems to be fine and would be pointless to practice what is right already (based from your question) only practice this thumb under so in C major scale i'd start RH on 3-E and go straight into that thumb under to make sure i'm hitting F, slowly and accurately then 2-3-4, thumb under accurately hit C and then come off and start again, once you've got the F and C accurate, up the tempo a little, slowly start to introduce 2 octaves and ensure accuracy as the highest priority.

Use the same approach to other scales, you will find similarities in some but there is never a need to rush.

Apologies I don't have the reference here, but I have read that it takes 5x the amount of practice to properly undo an incorrect practice so spend 20 hours hitting sometimes the wrong key and you'll be spending 100 hours to make sure you get it right from now on. that's not just applicable with wrong notes, but wrong sounds, wrong fingers, wrong posture wrong everything, really take a conscious and practical approach to your practice sessions with sensible goals in mind to really see correct progress.

Hope that helps.

[yadeehoo]

Yes, you're helping.

I don't think it take that long to unlearn a bad habit, just focusing and knowing what you're doing.
But I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

Sometimes my thumb is too short, and sometimes it's too far. I'm trying to slow down to spot where and when it's going wrong, but I can't spot a wrong pattern really. Maybe due to my hand going from left to right, it's not exactly the same wrist movement you need depending on which side of the piano your hand is at.

But yeah, the question was just this, you answered spot on.

Do you have some exercises besides the C scale for practicing the underthumb technique? Also concepts I should ponder?

Again, thx for all you answers

[adodd81802]

Well firstly - You may not be doing anything wrong. The ideas I suggested were for you to think about. I'm not a teacher and I am sure some other more experienced pianists will offer some assistance with this.

I stand by my point regarding unlearning-relearning.

Question - do you hit the note when you do it slowly? Do you feel any pain?

If you hit the correct note slowly every single time and don't feel pain you're probably doing it right, just practice over and over slowly hitting the right key and only when you don't have to think about it speed it up slowly.

If you don't hit the right note slowly, then there's obviously something wrong, and I'll refer you back to posting a video on how you play to help others identify the issue.

If you do feel pain - again you're doing it wrong

Pain isn't always associated with incorrect playing, but often is so I always like to question that when a pianist says something doesn't feel right or doesn't seem to work.

Other then the C scale I mean you have every single scale, or every piece of music that is out there I don't usually sit on scales too much but if you are struggling with this very basic technique, then it would do no harm to go through different scales very slowly and learn the fundamental gaps the thumb has to make before worrying about speed.

Be patience. as said it takes longer to learn something wrong, undo and relearn  then it does to learn it correctly to start!

[yadeehoo]

You're probably right, I feel no pain. But since your previous message I figured as my hand moves outward, i need some kind of elbow compensation, if you know what I mean. That's gotta be a typical wrong body movement, so I'm trying to watch that.

Does that happen to you to?

[adodd81802]

Without seeing it's hard to provide fully accurate advice, but my thoughts are -

Your elbow doesn't need to move out more then a couple CM in my opinion for the actual "thumb under" movement. Note that the thumb doesn't really need to be tucked under the palm but instead is a full motion of going under the hand with the movement of the arm, the wrist and the elbow rotating with it.

So rather than your shoulder bringing your elbow up to tuck your thumb under(kind of like flapping chicken wings lol) what actually happens is your forearm rotates slightly left and the elbow turns with the forearm not with the shoulder.

Hard to explain but here's a small example

I don't have the same problem as you no, but I did develop a problem where my right side worked fine, but my left hand was very stiff and so my thumb would really tuck under to reach the notes on the scale going down, which slowly caused some left thumb pain which was a big reason in me stopping and reviewing the whole way I played. It needs a little work but is a lot better now I am aware of it.

[yadeehoo]

Is she just showing off in this video? Cause I don't see how what she explains brings to the end result.

I do the C scale from C to F over 3 and half octaves, cause I can play it both in quarter notes or triplets

SO did you try Chopin etude Op10 No8 ?

For the left hand, Op10 No12 from Chopin works great as a warm up

[yadeehoo]

Ok, so I figured. In my case it's all about the arm movement. I fall short if I don't extend enough and vice versa. So I'm practicing my arm movement, to lead the hand in flowing motion

[adodd81802]

Glad you managed to identify the issue. That's good.

Apologies should have explained more about the video  That was a small extract of a lecture regarding playing scales the "right" way. It's cut down so you can't see the in between bit (that's what you pay to find out) But I was hoping it would help you identify anything you do differently to her to see if there was anything you could work on.

Looks like you got there anyway! I have been practicing a couple of Chopin waltz's I am not ready for the Etudes just yet! ^^

I will keep and eye out for some of your recordings then

[yadeehoo]

Thx for your time and providing resources. About Chopin, it doesn't hurt to practice let's say the first 2 bars of each etude you like. Soon these 2 bars will become one whole page and so on

[devron]

If you use rh starting from middle c, 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,2,1,3,2,1,3,2,1 repeat on the last over your thumb substitute 2 for 1 and repeat on d, take it all the way up To c then start again. It works contrary motion and anything in one octave should not involve you elbow let your wrist lead the way, if you do this over one octave you span a 9th and if you do it over 2 you span 10th do not use a metronome ( I know probably people will disagree with me but I have some pretty good majors) I have practice this exercise my whole life. 

Next start again from middle c 1,2,3, then cross under 1 plays F and 5 plays A in a third then 3,2,1 repeat on the second time just like the other exercise substitute 2 for 1 and take it up on octave.

What is most likely happening is your thumb doesn't understand under the 3 and 4, it can not tell them apart. You can do the exercise the same way under 4. This is better then a ca major scale because it's focused practice on your problem. Do it with right hand and left and watch how quickly your runs change. Hope this helps

[louispodesta]

Hi,

I find it hard to get some passages in muscle memory regarding the right hand underthumb on the white keys. I miss the right note a lot.

Any tips ?

Please read my two prior post on this subject.  Just type in "louispodesta july 05, 2015."  These combine Taubman/Golandsky technique with the speed technique Sergei Rachmaninoff taught.