I'M SO CONFUSED!!! what is root postion? are tonic triads always playedlikethis:

[arren31]

 I watched this video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FXbveMxOwcE  about tonic triads and it said that you can't just plunk the notes onto the stave in any order for a tonic triad, he also said that the notes had to be on top of each other. I'll use C major scale (C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C) as an example for my question. For a tonic triad the guy who was speaking said:
1. (C)Tonic sits at the bottom of the chord
2. (E)Note 3, of the scale, sits immediately above the tonic
3. (G)Note 5, of the scale, sits immediately above note 3.
It confuses me because the guy who was speaking said that a tonic triad has to be played in that order. Then he talked about playing it in root position. He said that root position is played in that order... SO, basically, NOTHING CHANGED. So would that basically mean all tonic triads are played in root postion?! and he also said that there's also a way to play a tonic triad, where the tonic is in a different spot, when he basically said a tonic triad is supposed to be played in that order! I also searched up what root position is and what I found didn't say anything about a chord being in that order! Did I just understand the video wrong? did he have the wrong info? I might be losing some intelligence being confused so please help 😫😰(T^T)

[josh93248]

A tonic triad is any chord based on I (let's use c Major) So C, E, G.

A Tonic triad can be found in Multiple INVERSIONS where the Bottom note is something different than C, either E (First inversion) or G, (second inversion)

Put simply

Root Position: C E G

First Inversion: E G C

Second Inversion: G C E

Now to be clear, the TONIC triad can be ANY of the above and more as I'll show) But the ROOT Position is just a single version of the Tonic Triad, as shown above.

One last thing, I'm sure you can imagine that On the stave as large as we have, there are many notes of the same letter to choose from, This means that if you spread your chord wide enough you can have different orders of notes from bottom to top such as:


C G E

E C G

G E C

You'll note that there must be larger gaps between some of these notes to play some of these possibilities. THE THING TO REMEMBER IS THIS. The Position of the Chord is ALWAYS defined by the lowest note.

So to write those possibilities again...

C G E (Root)

E C G (1st Inversion)

G E C (2nd Inversion)

Any questions?

[chopinlover01]

He's probably referring to tonic triads and their inversions.
The root position is sort of the "default" position of the triad, from where it moves, and it's constructed via a major third and a minor third stacked on top of each other, or vice versa in minor keys.
In pop they often just stick to the root position and move their hands around a lot, but it can be much more interesting and a lot easier if you use inversions and thing to stay in one general register.
In C, the inversions are stacked as follows. I'll add some octave numbers so you can see in your head how it's moving up
Root Position  First Inversion Second Inversion
   C - E - G                 E - G - C                G - C - E                      
   1   1    1                 1   1    2         1   2    2
In four note chords, IE seventh chords among others, you'll have a third inversion and potentially more, but not with three-note chords.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Josh.
Although, Josh- I think with chords spread apart by intervals such as a sixth or a tenth, they don't really count as triad inversions IMO. At least, I don't think of them that way; I just think "C major spread across a tenth".
Though maybe it is better to think of it as inversions. Don't know. Whatever works works I suppose.

[keypeg]

I just watched the video.  It is not well presented.  He inserts way too much information that is not needed, and his definitions come in a weird order.

First, he is presenting this for the purpose of writing exams.  If a student gets an exam question, "Write the tonic triad of the key of A major", the student will know how to answer that question.

Re-presenting it.

A triad is a three-note chord that is stacked in thirds, with skipped letter names.  The chord will look like a snowman (the shape he stresses).  CEG, DF#A, CEbG, DFA etc. are all triads.

Now let's take CEG.  It is in "root position", with C being the root of the chord.  If you wrote it as EGC then it would be in "first inversion" because E is now on the bottom.  it's like you flipped your snowman, so that his tummy is now on the bottom.  If you wrote it as GCE then it is "second inversion".  The snowman is standing on his head.  Technically the inversions are no longer "triads" since they are no longer stacked in thirds, but they are still the same chord.  CEG is a major C chord, and so is EGC and GCE.  In letter name chords ("jazz") all of them are written as "C" meaning "C major chord".  EGC is written as C/E meaning the C major chord with E on the bottom, and GCE is written as C/G meaning C major chord with G on the bottom.  All are considered to be a C major chord.

When they talk about the Tonic, they are talking about the chord you get when you build a triad starting with the bottom note of that key, using only the notes belonging to that key.  So in C major that is CEG.  In D major it's D F# A.  In Eb major it's Eb G Bb.  The next triad students usually learn in traditional theory is the Dominant triad, which is the 5th up.  These chords tend to play certain roles in music, called "functions" which is why these things matter.

In the video he shows chords with the notes scattered around and calls these "wrong".  This could create problems through misunderstandings.  For the exam, when asked for a triad, they are wrong.  But in music, the tonic chord can have its notes scattered in all kinds of ways, and it would still be a C major chord, and the tonic chord.  It just wouldn't be a tonic triad.

[keypeg]

For the fun of it: If you played C Eb G and C D# G you would be playing the same piano keys, and get the same sound.  But only C Eb G would be a triad, because those notes will stack in thirds, and have skipped letter names.

[arren31]

I thought no one would answer. Anyways, thank you people for replying. After reading all of your replies I finally get it now! Now I can continue reading from where I left off yesterday, when I was reading a suggestions for practicing sight reading page. When it told me if I'm unfamiliar with a key I should practice the corresponding scale and tonic triad (plus inversions). Then I lost motivation to continue reading because I didn't understand what tonic triads and inversions were due to a video that confused me (no offense to the person who made the video ❤️). So thanks for replying people, really appreciate it . Have a great evening or day (whatever time of day you have).

[desherron]

For the fun of it: If you played C Eb G and C D# G you would be playing the same piano keys, and get the same sound.  But only C Eb G would be a triad, because those notes will stack in thirds, and have skipped letter names.

Let me ask you something then.

If you mentioned C D# G then what is the use of it and where is it come from? I mean, there is a triad of C Eb G (wich is C minor chord - right?)  - why should C D# G ever happen to be written?

[keypeg]

Let me ask you something then.

If you mentioned C D# G then what is the use of it and where is it come from? I mean, there is a triad of C Eb G (wich is C minor chord - right?)  - why should C D# G ever happen to be written?

It might not be a conventional chord, and maybe never (?) a functional one as in "functions" (V, Dominant etc.) but you can run into something like that.  I ran across it somewhere recently where the composer was breaking the rules to make something more clear.   I think the D# was part of an ascending chromatic movement, Eb "should" have been used, but this made the music more apparent.  I studied conventional theory and still do, but my teacher also leads me far afield in exploring music of all kinds.  It will be "Why did this composer choose that spelling / key signature / not switch key signatures earlier?"

[dcstudio]

Let me ask you something then.

If you mentioned C D# G then what is the use of it and where is it come from? I mean, there is a triad of C Eb G (wich is C minor chord - right?)  - why should C D# G ever happen to be written?

in the case of a C 7 #9--an E and Bb would be included but the chord would voice as--

C E G Bb D#  in root position

C D# G would be written for the right hand -- the root the fifth and the # 9 while the E and the Bb --the third and the 7th would be played in the left...  common "rootless" voicing in jazz

sorry...this probably didn't make you any less confused... but it answered your question.

[keypeg]

in the case of a C 7 #9--an E and Bb would be included but the chord would voice as--

C E G Bb D#  in root position

C D# G would be written for the right hand -- the root the fifth and the # 9 while the E and the Bb --the third and the 7th would be played in the left...  common "rootless" voicing in jazz

And of course, you wouldn't write the D# as Eb (technically a "b10") for a number of reasons.  

In jazz notation, when chords are actually notated, would you ever see an A#?  Do things like "augmented 6's" ever apply like in the Italian, French, German etc. thingies?  Or sticking in an A# regardless?

[dcstudio]

And of course, you wouldn't write the D# as Eb (technically a "b10") for a number of reasons.  

In jazz notation, when chords are actually notated, would you ever see an A#?  Do things like "augmented 6's" ever apply like in the Italian, French, German etc. thingies?  Or sticking in an A# regardless?

nope never Eb because the D# is functioning as the raised ninth which is one of the harsher jazz chords...   it is a combo chord so to speak-- it has both the major and minor thirds which gives it a tonal ambiguity. If you remember that chord that begins the song "Spinning Wheel" by Blood Sweat and Tears...that's a Dom7#9 chord.
 We use whats called tritone substitution (Neopolitan 6th in traditional)---Dom7 chords whose roots lie a tritone apart will substitute for each other quite nicely because they share the same tritone between the 3rd and the 7th.

[keypeg]

I got introduced to tritone substitution recently and it is way cool.  I only have the main idea - haven't really done much with it yet - but enough to say way cool.  Since different people will be reading this thread, I was hoping to get a link or two in here about Neapolitan 6th and such, but the explanations are too long and unwieldy. Did you mean the Neapolitan 6th that also has a minor 7th (they're showing a triad in Wikki)?  

The way I got the basic idea (not within anything formal yet, not within anything traditional or functional) was of something that looks and sounds on the piano like a C7 except that the 5th is flatted, and our "7th" is spelled like a 6th.  So instead of C E G Bb (dom7) or C E G A# (C-aug6 = "German" if the rest of it is in place in music), but C E Gb A# .. Neapolitan if it's in the right inversion and doing the right thing in the music.  That's what you're talking about?

In C E Gb A# we have two tritones: C Gb is a dim5 - E A# is another dim5.  Is that what you're talking about?

I'm learning a bit in the language of two worlds, so I never know - Is "tritone exchange" a term used in classical music, or only in non-classical - or maybe it's starting to trickle in?

[dcstudio]

I got introduced to tritone substitution recently and it is way cool.  I only have the main idea - haven't really done much with it yet - but enough to say way cool.  Since different people will be reading this thread, I was hoping to get a link or two in here about Neapolitan 6th and such, but the explanations are too long and unwieldy. Did you mean the Neapolitan 6th that also has a minor 7th (they're showing a triad in Wikki)?  

The way I got the basic idea (not within anything formal yet, not within anything traditional or functional) was of something that looks and sounds on the piano like a C7 except that the 5th is flatted, and our "7th" is spelled like a 6th.  So instead of C E G Bb (dom7) or C E G A# (C-aug6 = "German" if the rest of it is in place in music), but C E Gb A# .. Neapolitan if it's in the right inversion and doing the right thing in the music.  That's what you're talking about?

In C E Gb A# we have two tritones: C Gb is a dim5 - E A# is another dim5.  Is that what you're talking about?

I'm learning a bit in the language of two worlds, so I never know - Is "tritone exchange" a term used in classical music, or only in non-classical - or maybe it's starting to trickle in?

the Neopolitan 6th chord is a augmented 6th chord built on the b2---it creates the same progression as subbing the V--i.e

in C

the V chord G7 is subbed with Db7 a tritone away-- a ii-V7-I  becomes ii-bII7-I this is tritone substitution in jazz

which enharmonically is the same as a ii-N6-I in traditional theory

ya with me  ?   

[keypeg]

the Neopolitan 6th chord is a augmented 6th chord built on the b2---it creates the same progression as subbing the V--i.e

in C

the V chord G7 is subbed with Db7 a tritone away-- a ii-V7-I  becomes ii-bII7-I this is tritone substitution in jazz

which enharmonically is the same as a ii-N6-I in traditional theory

ya with me  ?    

Yes, that is how I have understood it.  I like the way you explained it.  Very clear.

I was looking for a resource for anyone coming into this cold, and Wikki starts with a triad, and only comes into what you described half ways down.  I have one foot in traditional theory, one foot in "something else", and when discussing these things in a forum I want to make sure my nomenclature is right formal-wise.  So when Wikki started with triads without the seventh (yours has a seventh / what I know has  a seventh) it was possible that "out there" (formally) it's taught differently.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_chord
-------------
Thinking further:

Hm - I'm thinking that you would write Db7 as Db F Ab B (aug6 at the end) rather than Db F Ab Cb r?  And in jazz notation, would you prefer Db7 with the person knowing the "7th" is an aug6, or would you write it as Db(aug6) just to be sure (assuming the aug6)?  

"Substitution for G" (V) gives me only part of the picture.  You have an "outward" expansion which is really cool.  The Db can move a semitone down to the C, which the B can move a semitone up to the C.  F is  a semitone from E, and Ab is a semitone from G, so everything settles to the notes of the C chord rather nicely.

The one I learned first and then saw often in music was where you want to slide the whole music down a semitone into a new key and this is part of the fancy footwork.

[keypeg]

post went wrong

[dcstudio]

post went wrong

lol...so  you got a little over-excited about tritone substitution?   understandable... it's way cool 

[dcstudio]

Yes, that is how I have understood it.  I like the way you explained it.  Very clear.

I was looking for a resource for anyone coming into this cold, and Wikki starts with a triad, and only comes into what you described half ways down.  I have one foot in traditional theory, one foot in "something else", and when discussing these things in a forum I want to make sure my nomenclature is right formal-wise.  So when Wikki started with triads without the seventh (yours has a seventh / what I know has  a seventh) it was possible that "out there" (formally) it's taught differently.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_chord
-------------
Thinking further:

Hm - I'm thinking that you would write Db7 as Db F Ab B (aug6 at the end) rather than Db F Ab Cb r?  And in jazz notation, would you prefer Db7 with the person knowing the "7th" is an aug6, or would you write it as Db(aug6) just to be sure (assuming the aug6)?  

no where in jazz will you find an augmented 6th..  they don't feel the need to differentiate--we call it what it is.  

no Db7 is always spelled Db F Ab Cb--even jazzers understand key signatures an to throw an enharmonic tone in a leadsheet would look wrong to them too...but if we were in C and the Db was used as a sub chord and the melody note was a B---it would stay that way.

if I were to say "Augmented 6th" to a room full of jazzers they would look at me like I was crazy..lol

[desherron]

I think the D# was part of an ascending chromatic movement, Eb "should" have been used, but this made the music more apparent. 

in the case of a C 7 #9--an E and Bb would be included but the chord would voice as--

C E G Bb D#  in root position

C D# G would be written for the right hand -- the root the fifth and the # 9 while the E and the Bb --the third and the 7th would be played in the left...  common "rootless" voicing in jazz

sorry...this probably didn't make you any less confused... but it answered your question.

Thanks!

Looks like in C Eb G the Eb points the fact that it is a C triad with minor third (lowered, i.e. b-ed, major third in C). And, in case of C 7 #9 (C seventh with raised ninth?), D# points the fact of ascending movement, i.e. raising of the ninth in C-rooted chord.

Right?

[nystul]

I think the French sixth helps to illustrate the tritone substitution.  In C major, you have a French sixth spelled Ab, C, D, F#, which is leading to a G chord.  Notice another way to get to the dominant would be the secondary dominant V/V: D, F#, A, C.  Well, only one note is different.  Instead of A you have Ab.  Just by changing which note is in the bass you would have either an altered D7 chord or an altered Ab7 chord.  Choosing the Ab as bass would be tritone substitution in jazz.  If you then just make it a plain Ab7 chord instead of having the (b5 or #11) D, it is like the German sixth.

From my understanding there are a couple things that differentiate these concepts.  In the classical example, we are usually in the key of C, and this augmented sixth on Ab is a predominant.  In jazz it would probably be a substitute for D7 in the key of G.  In classical, the spelling dictates that the Ab and F# resolve to G from opposite directions.  In jazz, they will spell it with a Gb regardless.

[dcstudio]

I do believe you have misunderstood tritone substitution

the neopolitan 6th is built on the lowered second scale degree--and is the tritone substition for the  5 chord... hence the relationship although enharmonic between the N6 and tritone sub is exact

Ab C D F#--is a D7b5--as you have it spelled that is not the tritone sub chord--its the altered 5 of 5..  they are two entirely different concepts. 

In C the V chord is G7--tritone sub for G is Db7--spelled Db F Ab Cb   you sub the chord with the Dom7 chord whose root lies a tritone away--this is done because both chords share the same notes for the 3rd and the 7th--

G7=  the 3rd is  B  (Cb is the seventh --Db7)  Db F Ab B--is the same chord with the B natural as the raised 6th which is enharmonic with the Cb in Db7--the N6 illustrates this precisely.
         the 7th is F    (F is the third          Db7)

D7b5=  F# is the third and C is the 7th---this is not tritone substitution as this chord does not contain the notes required to qualify as that.

trust me on this one.

Thank you and good night

[dcstudio]

 

tritone substitution--  the chords used share the same tritone interval between the 3rd and 7th-- that is why it's called tritone substitution

the fr  german and Italian lead to the dominant and do not illustrate sub chords as they are used in traditional theory--but altered chords...they also have resolutions...besides both N6 and tritone sub lead to tonic--or a functioning tonic at the moment -but there are no rules in jazz tritone sub can resolve anywhere.

which is why--N6 illustrates tritone sub as it relates to a specific key---and the others don't.

the easiest way to think of it is the fr gr it--lead to the dom--the bII7 or N6 is used IN PLACE of the dominant.

[keypeg]

I'm afraid that I could not completely follow either of the last two posts.  The problem is that you are posting in the student forum, and using terminology without defining it, and the language may be unfamiliar.  

In C the V chord is G7--tritone sub for G is Db7--spelled Db F Ab Cb   you sub the chord with the Dom7 chord whose root lies a tritone away--this is done because both chords share the same notes for the 3rd and the 7th--

"You sub the chord with the Dom7 chord" - What does that mean, "sub the chord with" etc.?  Can you illustrate, maybe?  Do you mean that Db7 takes the place of G7, playing its role (function?).  What happens?  What would be a typical progression?

Perhaps the answer lies in the other post:

the bII7 or N6 is used IN PLACE of the dominant.

[dcstudio]

tritone substitution...

any two dominant seven chords whose roots lie a tritone apart can substitute for each other because they will share the same two pitches for the 3rd and the 7th...

i.e.

C7--  C E G Bb

Gb7--Gb  Bb Db Fb (E)

as you can see both chords contain E and Bb

in C7-- E is the 3rd and Bb is the minor 7th
Gb7--Bb is the 3rd and Fb (E) is the minor 7th

the third and the seventh are the most important tones in any chord as they determine tonality (major or minor) and function (dominant)--therefore they can be substituted for each other in a progression.

the interval between the 3rd and the 7th in a dominant 7 chord is a tritone (or augmented 4th or diminished 5th)... hence the term.. tritone substitution.

the N6 illustrates this concept as it is used as a replacement for the dominant 7 chord --the V7 chord-- is built on the lowered 2nd scale degree ( a tritone away from the root of the V chord) and resolves to tonic.

The Gr Fr and It augmented sixths lead to the V7 in traditional harmony---they are secondary dominants or altered 5 of 5--with specific resolutions.  Although they contain tritones--they are not functioning the same way as the N6 does--as a replacement for the V7 chord which creates a specific progression of the bII7 resolving to tonic...

I apologize if I was unclear.