James booker rhythm question

[devron]

This a measure from his work gonzo's blue dream I my question is on beats 4,5,6 what are good ways or ideas to count the beats as well as the subdivision be causes it reoccurs with a different left hand a few times. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but it is a poly rhythm in 6/8 because we are feeling in 4 over the 3 beats but it is played to a dotted quarter note rhythm giving a melodic pulse, I just don't want the notes to become uneven

Any help would be greatly appreciated

[dcstudio]

It's james booker ---they really can't notate "soul" in standardized notation...lol

really --you have the music---play along with james on a recording until you get it...  so often those transcriptions are not accurate.




but if you must count it--this tune, although it is in 6/8 has a very heavy 2/4 with james' LH--think of dividing the bar in half and counting 1--2   should make it mountains easier--then you just put all that in the 2nd half--once you got the right hand add the left ..

most importantly--if you want to respect James Booker's intentions -- I would go directly to the source and listen to it until it was cemented in there.  He really would think it funny that you are trying to define his music with a time signature...  he never did...lol.

he was Harry Connick Jr's teacher...  that's pretty old school.

[devron]

No way the man didn't count I'm not sure I agree with you on that, but you can just randomly place a dotted rhythm in the left hand there needs to be some type of placements I'm sure booker would agree with me here there needs to be some sort of structure to it.

Agree though you can't define soul it's a feeling but maybe I'll just get it solid then run it and let the hands play.

[dcstudio]

No way the man didn't count I'm not sure I agree with you on that, but you can just randomly place a dotted rhythm in the left hand there needs to be some type of placements I'm sure booker would agree with me here there needs to be some sort of structure to it.

Agree though you can't define soul it's a feeling but maybe I'll just get it solid then run it and let the hands play.

I don't mean he didn't keep time and yes he structured it to fit there but he wasn't counting that quad in his head---he played it because it worked there..  I am saying if you want to sound like james--play along with him..  if you cut that measure in half and read the quad as if it's in 4/4 the rhythm will be correct--then it's just a matter of making it fit in the 2nd half of that measure and landing the left hand with it.   You will get all the notes and all the rhythm--but don't be surprised if it still doesn't sound like him...  play along with him and it might get there.

it goes against the principals of jazz and blues to play someone else's music exactly as they do.  You are expected to take liberties...that's the whole point...   you are reading a transcription of something he basically improvised using his standard aresenal of riffs--just keep that in mind.  It doesn't translate perfectly into standard notation.

[devron]

In the studio I recording of it, it is pretty spot on as I play through it as far as accuracy and that is without even putting the hands together. I see what your saying it just makes it tough to practice the right hand as a whole , imagine I'll be on it for a year or two I just bought the book last week. 

The biggest problem is a metronome only ticks at 40 and I can either take eight note rhythm or feel it in the dotted, one is insanely slow and the other insanely fast very interesting how that works though. 

I play a bit of jazz but this is the only New Orleans style blues transcribed besides professor longhair, someone needs to transcribe some sonny land slim sonnet blues story.

[devron]

If if the notes are felt evenly in the 6/8 it's  two groups and 3 and a group of 2.  Thinking of the beat as a harmonic series and dividing it 1/x amount of times it can be counted the fifth beat is after the first two then the next three notes the six hits then sixteenth and double time after that.  It fits and sounds even. 

I think this will then help seeing the subdivisions in the left hand to somewhat place it in a accurate rhythm.

[dcstudio]

If if the notes are felt evenly in the 6/8 it's  two groups and 3 and a group of 2.  Thinking of the beat as a harmonic series and dividing it 1/x amount of times it can be counted the fifth beat is after the first two then the next three notes the six hits then sixteenth and double time after that.  It fits and sounds even. 

I think this will then help seeing the subdivisions in the left hand to somewhat place it in a accurate rhythm.

if you say so...

[devron]

Try to play through it like that you will see what I mean, believe I was chastised constantly for not counting in college it refused to because my notes were so even I wouldn't even play with a metronome.

Now that I teach I feel it's hypocritical not to practice what I preach because it was how I was taught but I just didn't listen. This is the music I finally decied to take out the metronome on, needless to say it helps a lot but takes a lot away from the music itself, more feeling less robot

[dcstudio]

in the left hand the first inversion C min chord hits on the 4th beat at the same time as the 1st note of the quad in the RH  In the LH the two 32nd notes are really like grace notes--the focus is on the last note of the system which lands between the G and the F in the last system of 32nd notes in the RH  --but really you should think of landing the  last LH system on the 5th and 6th beats of the 6/8 time--NOT by where it comes in on the rh  it will sound very square otherwise.

it's basically 4 against 3....  the quad..  1 and 2 and 3 and 4 E and A

the left hand will come in between the "and"of 3  and 4--

I understand the harmonic series quite well but not how you are relating it to counting this...  

can you explain?  I've taught for 20 years and I play jazz professionally.. and I took plenty of theory and musical acoustics classes in college. I promise I can keep up... sounds like an interesting analogy...  

you were a music major?  and this counting threw you?  and you say it will take you two years to learn a James Booker transcription...


and you teach...    hmmmm  

that makes less sense than your harmonic series analogy...  I have played for 47 years...  the link below will show you that I am who I say I am...  

any vids of your playing? because at this point... I am pretty convinced you are not on the level about any of this.

[devron]

It is an easy way to teach someone a poly rhythm and to get the feel for on if you can divide each subdivision of a beat. That is exactly how I was thinking of it when I saw it at first glance, using the harmonic series at two different points and comparing them against each other so you can physically see the polyrhythms

I drew a quite graph how I see it in my head Maybe I am wrong but I has been helping me and I have always done well with polyrhythms but this one is over a time signature with a LH normally it's one or the other this is both. 

[dcstudio]

It is an easy way to teach someone a poly rhythm and to get the feel for on if you can divide each subdivision of a beat. That is exactly how I was thinking of it when I saw it at first glance, using the harmonic series at two different points and comparing them against each other so you can physically see the polyrhythms

I drew a quite graph how I see it in my head Maybe I am wrong but I has been helping me and I have always done well with polyrhythms but this one is over a time signature with a LH normally it's one or the other this is both. 

again... what does this have to do with the harmonic series--the infinite series of overtones--a musical acoustics term.

or are you defining the harmonic series in another way...?  another telltale sign.

a polyrhythm is two contrasting rhythms... played together... its ALWAYS both or it's not a polyrhythm   

give it up... you are just digging yourself in deeper...lol...

[devron]

I'm referring to a mathematical one as far as dividing the beat into infinite parts, yes you are correct but the feeling is still the same whether your actually playing with both hands or not it helps with hands together. I'm not trying to argue a point I was looking for a different way to practice it.

Hence the I may be wrong it was a discussion I'm not trying to out smart you

[dcstudio]

 people will help you here if you ask.

you are trying use music terms that you have either defined incorrectly or don't understand.

you had to ask how to count that measure of music...because you didn't know how...then you tried to bs me with the harmonic series--then polyrhythms--terms I do understand fully.





if you really are a teacher...  brush up on some stuff... 

[devron]

It's in the graph dickhead don't insult me shows even divisions on time, I understood how to count it whether I worded it that way or not it's the students corner here I will ask a question as a student

[devron]

That is why I defined it as 1/x it show division and how the music one works but without the sine wave involved

[dcstudio]

That is why I defined it as 1/x it show division and how the music one works but without the sine wave involved

as I said.

you aren't fooling anyone.

and that doesn't work to subdivide a beat.  Especially since all the notes in the quad are not of equal value.

I don't know what your real story is... but take my advice and stick to using the musical terms you understand.

you cannot have a degree in music and not understand how to count polyrhythms--or that in order to have a polyrhythm you need two contrasting beats together... your own definition said "usually it's one or the other this is both"....  you can't get out of music school without knowing all of your scales--and you are still reading them for note review?

OR


you are joking right?   this is like a gag string..   is this Noah? 

ok  I get it... lol.

[devron]

You can get out without your scales because I did I am proof of that.

I was skipped joury because I have a deep understand of musical interpretation and I play music at I high level.

Your jumping to conclusion based on solely one thing, shows a child in you, not a teacher or a parent.

It's like pointing a finger at someone for asking a question and calling them dumb when I gave no reason for it being treated as such. 

I came with a question of which you didn't not help whether I worded It correctly or not I understood what you were saying before you said it.  Further your response and advice was no help what's so ever, that being said it doesn't get much more difficult then these rhythms in this piece of music.

Any teacher that gives advice not to count is a lousy one, it's the students choice to do it or not

[dcstudio]

You can get out without your scales because I did I am proof of that.

give it up.

wannabe

[dcstudio]

a link to the university of south florida and a list of degree plans

no music studies degree is offered there...lol


https://music.arts.usf.edu/content/templates/?a=1511&z=153


you have to know your scales to get in dumbass

[devron]

scroll down you dumb *** piece of sh*t, it is right there.  I did that's why I got in go *** yourself man I don't deserve to be treated like you are for asking for help.  I didn't say I was a virtuosos Or a math genius, I have pretty good scales and yes major and minor ones USF is an all Steinway school and a good one where I learn a lot so don't insult my education either because I had a question and asked it in the simplest of terms so maybe someone where wasn't having a shitty day hating there own life would bring to attention each little mistaken or mis typed word.

You have control issues and frankly I'm not wrong music is about perspective and you are close minded, this is mine and if you don't like it that is ok. You don't have to agree with me or disagree and you act like ever music teacher in the world has this massive amount of musical knowledge.  Normally your lucky to find a piano teacher that can evenlay scales, my guess is your most likely aren't that good you take g# melodic minor in 6ths in a group of 5 up and down the piano let's see how fast you can play it or how well.

Scales a a difficult part of the piano and playing them are getting through it are two different things.  Probably like most of the jazz tunes when you perform you throw some half ass left hand harmony or some bullshit tune from the real book 1-5.  Those are where your scales go if you didn't know LH and RH, or stride of of those out let's see how well you play let's pick and tune and we can both post in the audition room as a friendly contest?

[dcstudio]

I don;t know who you are but you got me

I do humbly apologize

you aren't even that good of a troll....  geez... lol

I am so embarrassed that I let you lead me to this...  what was I thinking

[devron]

What you are doing is the definition of trolling on someone your in your 40s or 50s use a term more appropriate to your generation, shows the child in you again and the fact you can't use a scroll wheel says your age.

[dcstudio]

I also should thank you for the James Booker song... I like Gonzo too... 



I don't understand this need people have to convince others that they are musicians--they use terms they don't understand and then they use them incorrectly--in their effort to sound impressive they make complete fools of themselves.  They will insist that they can play the piano but  offer no evidence--IRL they have always forgotten their sheet music or there is some reason they can't play "right now"   and I have heard some doozies for reasons in my life.

[keypeg]

a quick one.  Not much time.  I haven't read the whole thread.
I see a mathematician using a mathematical term which is also a musical term.  Here is a link that explains the mathematical term:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(mathematics)
That said, I do not think that the mathematical term is helpful for the practical playing of these kinds of rhythms.  They may help in an intellectual understanding by a mathematician, but I'm not sure that it would be helpful practically for students in playing these kinds of rhythms.

[devron]

It's a piece of music not a song, pick the tune and we can both run through it and compare it in the audition room. Agree or give up, put your money where you mouth

[dcstudio]

a quick one.  Not much time.  I haven't read the whole thread.
I see a mathematician using a mathematical term which is also a musical term.  Here is a link that explains the mathematical term:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(mathematics)
That said, I do not think that the mathematical term is helpful for the practical playing of these kinds of rhythms.  They may help in an intellectual understanding by a mathematician, but I'm not sure that it would be helpful practically for students in playing these kinds of rhythms.

it's a sock puppet account  open for 2 years with 39 posts  --the first post stating that the OP had a degree in performance.   lol and claims never played a minor scale the entire time.
not sure what the motivation is...  but I have plenty of vids posted...  everybody here knows how I play...there is no need for me to prove anything.  lol  the link is right there at the bottom.  If he can show me just one video of his--I will be astounded...  

[devron]

Your an old woman your searching me up and down baby you have crush, btw that is not stride in sweet Georgia brown, should be tenths not octaves in the bottom no walking parts or contrasting runs and no tune in it at all probably because you can't count cut time.

Only time you really play out in on a keyboard so you can adjust your volume, lack of dynamic control nice relaxed technique though. Technique is nothing without control, amazing music school technique lmao you full of youself keep blowing up your ego ballon it may get bigger.

I love sock puppets, I was considering the change and then decided on my mathematics major instead with music. Got that not no minors in college but you did from that amazing music school technique, what was the community college you acquired that from?

[keypeg]

There is a "report to moderator" button.

[dcstudio]

that's alright keypeg.

I have 1.7 million views on my account... this is not my first hater...lol.  Although I haven't had but a couple really.. it just goes with the numbers.  I don't hide who I am.



Devron, thanks for the James Booker though...  I mean really...WOW.  you know I had never actually listened to him before you posted this question. 

I hesitate to tell you why it's so important...  just suffice to say--I am very grateful. 

I apologize for being so rude to you... and yes I am an old woman of 51...  you got me...lol
don't like my playing?...well that's cool, too. 

[cabbynum]

Just to add something in real quick... there are quite a few pianists who don't practice scales. A good friend of mine recently played the alkan concerto for me. He has practiced scales very minimally and not at all in the past 20 years and he had absolutely no issues.
He also went to a very prestigious conservatory. He never had to play scales unless it was in a piece.
Also every music school Saya you have to know all your major and minor scales and that you'll be asked to play them in auditions. That's bullshit. It's rare if they do. You don't have much more than 10 minutes to impress them. Why would they waste that time on scales?

[dcstudio]

whatever...  what's weird is I have never listened to James Booker even though I live an hour East of New Orleans.  There was a whole lot I didn't know about him...

last night in the middle of this infantile argument I went to a restaurant for dinner and was randomly seated next to another musician who knew James Booker personally.  I didn't bring up his name either... this man did.

kinda freaky...lol

[dcstudio]

Just to add something in real quick... there are quite a few pianists who don't practice scales. A good friend of mine recently played the alkan concerto for me. He has practiced scales very minimally and not at all in the past 20 years and he had absolutely no issues.
He also went to a very prestigious conservatory. He never had to play scales unless it was in a piece.
Also every music school Saya you have to know all your major and minor scales and that you'll be asked to play them in auditions. That's bullshit. It's rare if they do. You don't have much more than 10 minutes to impress them. Why would they waste that time on scales?

really?  come on... read the whole string.

this is someone who claims to have a performance degree ...  he posted a very basic rhythm question... it's not just the scales...  he couldn't properly define the word "polyrhythm" either--his terminology isn't correct...and one thing you learn at school is terminology... even if you don't come out a good player... you can talk the talk... and this guy can't  

and he still has not produced a video nor has he made any attempt to respond to his own challenge..  sure sounds like BS to me.