Hand Independence - Beginner

[tomc86]

Hello All,

Maybe you guys can help me... I'm a beginner learning the piano, not using structured lessons at the moment but just getting by trying to learn pieces.  I've been playing around 4 or 5 months or so now.

I started off learning Fur Elise and Moonlight Sonata, and play those acceptably then started looking into other things to start playing.  I'm currently trying to learn Comptine d'un Autre Été by Jann Tiersen.  The thing is I've hit a bit of a wall with hand independence.  At this section:

&t=59s

I can't seem to play the the two different rhythms, I just get stuck.  I've had a look around at hand independence exercises and I could practise those but my question is... Will the skills learned doing those transfer easily over to my practice with Comptine or am I better just trying to persevere with the piece and it will come to me eventually?

[timothy42b]

Will the skills learned doing those transfer easily over to my practice with Comptine or am I better just trying to persevere with the piece and it will come to me eventually?

Neither.

[tomc86]

So what should I do?

[dogperson]

So what should I do?

Hi Tom, could you possibly copy and post just a couple of the measures where you are having problems?  From looking at a score I found on the internet, it may be where there are 16th notes in the right hand and eighth notes in the left.

If that is true, there will be two notes in RH for each one note in the LH.  Take a pencil and draw a vertical line to show which notes are played at the same time. Learn each hand separately very well using a very slow metronome.  Write in the fingering you will use and stick to it

When you start to practice hands together, practice at about 10% of the speed where you will finally play.  When you get that learned, gradually increase the speed.  If you reach a point where you start seeing errors, go back to really slow again. 

[tenk]

Do Bach. Notebook for Anna Magdelina, Inventions and Sinfonias, WTK. No better "exercises" out there for hand independence.

[tomc86]

Hi Tom, could you possibly copy and post just a couple of the measures where you are having problems?  From looking at a score I found on the internet, it may be where there are 16th notes in the right hand and eighth notes in the left.

Yes, from here - https://www.kevinrandom.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Amelie-theme-Yann-Tiersen.pdf

It would be the 45th bar.  I just can't get my head around it for some reason.  I will take your advice and give it a try.  Thank you,

[dcstudio]

you do realize that it's exactly the same as bar 21 right--except the right hand is an octave higher this time.  If you can play it the first time you can do it an octave higher

That whole thing just kind of repeats itself.

I know this one... it's from that video--- the cartoon...the guy at the piano..  great short film.  It was hugely popular with piano students a few years back.

I only glanced at your arrangement but it looks the same as the ones my students brought to me.  

think of it as a repeat... because that's what it is.

[tomc86]

you do realize that it's exactly the same as bar 21 right--except the right hand is an octave higher this time.  If you can play it the first time you can do it an octave higher

That whole thing just kind of repeats itself.

I know this one... it's from that video with the cartoon...the guy at the piano..  great short film.  It was hugely popular with piano students a few years back.

I only glanced at your arrangement but it looks the same as the ones my students brought to me.   

Sorry, it is the 21st bar, and then the 45th.  I had just skipped straight through. The whole piece is just two halves with the left hand the same throughout with the right hand an octave higher in the second half.

I'm not great at reading music to be honest.  After these few months, I'm kind of keen to improve so I think I'm going to get professional lessons.

[dcstudio]

I'm not great at reading music to be honest.  After these few months, I'm kind of keen to improve so I think I'm going to get professional lessons.

well that makes more sense.   the trouble with that section is that the melody is offset in that system-- learn the right hand first... (because you already know the LH)...  it is straight 16th notes against 8th notes--they line up perfectly...  it's the offset melody itself that throws most students.

lessons will help... lol.

[timothy42b]

So what should I do?

What I meant was that merely continuing to struggle with the difficult part will not be as productive as a structured approach to it.  And doing the same thing with an exercise will be just as bad. 

I would work out the difficulty in the music you have, not an exercise, but I would approach it a bit differently.

[dogperson]

What I meant was that merely continuing to struggle with the difficult part will not be as productive as a structured approach to it.  And doing the same thing with an exercise will be just as bad. 

I would work out the difficulty in the music you have, not an exercise, but I would approach it a bit differently.

Hi
My instructions previously were correct... this is 8th notes in one hand and 16th notes in the other. Two notes in RH for every one in LH.

[tomc86]

Thank you all for your help.  I persevered a little more with it and made some progress.  Though it's slow.  I'm going to put it down to the offset melody that I'm having difficulty with as when I see the notes straight up I notice that I've had an easier time with more complex arrangements but with everything "in key" in other things.

[dogperson]

Thank you all for your help.  I persevered a little more with it and made some progress.  Though it's slow.  I'm going to put it down to the offset melody that I'm having difficulty with as when I see the notes straight up I notice that I've had an easier time with more complex arrangements but with everything "in key" in other things.

Don't worry at all about 'slow'.  It is a common tendency to rush the process of slow, deliberate learning, that we all need to fight   

[dcstudio]

I'm going to put it down to the offset melody that I'm having difficulty with as when I see the notes straight up I notice that I've had an easier time with more complex arrangements but with everything "in key" in other things.

the melody only sounds offset...  but the notes are even.  I had a student play this on her keyboard with the sound off a couple of times and it really helped her.   If you concentrate first on making the correct changes it may make it easier for you, too.  Just don't spend too much time with the sound off... as soon as you get the moves down.. turn that power back on.

You are an ear player..which is a good thing... a great thing... but in this instance your ear is telling you something isn't right... and it's the fact that the melody is offset there but the notes are even... it's the melodic component itself and not the rhythm that causes that to sound the way it does.

try it with the sound off and let me know if it works for you.

[pencilart3]

Neither.

So helpful.

@OP slow practice always seems to do it

[handz]

I have problem with this kind of pieces too, left had playing constant pattern and right accompanying it... never learned this piece well

[tomc86]

Thanks again all.

I took the liberty of recording my Moonlight Sonata play-through.  I don't have an acoustic piano at the moment and play on a PX 350M.  There are a couple of obvious mistakes but I hope that you guys here can enjoy it...

https://vocaroo.com/i/s0TIA5BtjfRT

Feel free to criticize on the not so obvious mistakes.

I know it's not great but it's kind of a thank you to you guys from a beginner.

Tom.

Edit:  I'll be sure to upload a version of Comptine as soon as I become more proficient and I've already started looking at piano teachers in my area for lessons.  I just hope I haven't picked up too many bad habits like I did when learning the guitar on my own.

[dcstudio]

I know it's not great but it's kind of a thank you to you guys from a beginner.

Tom.

Edit:  I'll be sure to upload a version of Comptine as soon as I become more proficient and I've already started looking at piano teachers in my area for lessons.  I just hope I haven't picked up too many bad habits like I did when learning the guitar on my own.

That is very well played for a beginner.  You have a natural musical sense..  watch the tempo at the broken chords at the bottom of page 2 and the top of pg3.. you are rushing quite a bit there. 

glad to hear that you are looking into taking lessons.

[timothy42b]

So helpful.

@OP slow practice always seems to do it

Slow practice isn't magic, unless used with the right tools.

I can't watch a youtube here and I don't know the piece, so it's hard to give good advice.  From the description this may be a good place for the technique called "dropping notes."  Do you use that?