Learning Chopin Etudes in my 2nd year was more beneficial than I thought

[kawai_cs]

So how is progress on op 10 no 1? Or maybe you have started practicing something else?

[yadeehoo]

So how is progress on op 10 no 1? Or maybe you have started practicing something else?

Yes i'm working on a lot of pieces at once, and i sight read through all of the chopin etudes, trying to get a general feel. It's just too much fun

[adodd81802]

Just being a little pedantic, If it was anybody else Yadehoo i'd let it slip

But the definition of sight reading is
"read and perform (music) from sheet music, without preparation."

I'm confident that's not the case with all The Chopin Etudes that you mentioned!

Still looking forward to that recording!

[yadeehoo]

Just being a little pedantic, If it was anybody else Yadehoo i'd let it slip

But the definition of sight reading is
"read and perform (music) from sheet music, without preparation."

I'm confident that's not the case with all The Chopin Etudes that you mentioned!

Still looking forward to that recording!

Yes, that what I'm doing. Only that I'm "performing" it really slowly. Not at full speed (obviously?)

[adodd81802]

OK let's tackle this again Yadehoo, i'm concerned at your statement suggesting you're now "performing" Chopin's Etudes...regardless of tempo.

There was an extract from an article I have read recently that has altered my idea of slow practice that i think would be worth taking interest in.

I agree that slow practice in itself is good to engage your brain, to remember the notes the idea of the piece, phrasing etc. But don't get tricked into thinking you can just slowly, slowly increase the speed. There has to be a clear increase in speed when you're comfortable with the notes, but understanding the motions will not be the same is important.

Credit to the information I have taken out of Dr Chang's book for this next example, but imagine a person walking, you can walk really really slow, or you can walk really really fast, but you are limited by the motions involved in walking that you hit a certain speed you cannot go any faster. (power walking?!)

Now it is at that stage you are stressing your body out by forcing speed that isn't supported by that motion, what do we then do? We start jogging, running, there's very different motions involved to obtain the next level of speed.

Now at the piano, psychologically we will end up very stressed because while we can build up a lot of speed in this "walking pace" of learning a piano piece, you are going to hit a wall where you are trying to use motions not built for the speed you're hoping to obtain. The problem with tempo increase is that we will sit at that tempo trying to play, thinking we cannot do it because we using the motions we have ingrained the last 500 times of practice at slower tempos...

The two ways around this are -

Play at a reasonable tempo already (to ensure your practice speed is at a slow jog rather than fast walk)
OR create big jumps in tempo increase to ensure you are surpassing that stressed walking stage.

The problem with the second plan is you could still hit that wall on one of the tempo increases and also even if you jump over that stressed stage you're still going to feel uncomfortable with the new motions that will be required at the new tempo.

Suggestion 1 has the most promise in my opinion, playing a piece at no slower than 50% of it's original tempo to ensure there is already fast motions required. So this creates some questions.

What if you cannot play a piece accurately at 50% speed? my first thoughts are you are not ready for the level of difficulty! if you are the persistent type, breaking the piece down to it's core will help you create exercises and studies that tackle what you are trying to learn in a manageable way, a way that cannot be obtained by repeating parts of the piece that you already do not know how to do!

Your example of the op 10.1 etude you posted a couple of weeks ago is essentially arpeggios, so practice normal arpeggios.

Note when I say 50% I don't mean off the bat of seeing the notes for the first time, I mean you've read a couple bars, you've played the notes you know where you got to go, you do a couple of tries at that slow walking pace and then increase the tempo to 50%.

Now the reality of piano music is the faster it gets, the harder it gets. The more notes per second required is what makes our brain work harder, our fingers work harder and our true accuracy tested. It is no surprise that Chopin's etudes are very high tempo and a hell-a-lot of notes which is why many users on here advise that you are to start on simpler, manageable pieces rather than sitting on these for months on end.

&feature=youtu.be

That's your post from June right, 5 months ago. In 5 months dabbling on this piece (and others) you don't seemed to have achieved anything that you can perform (or that we are yet to see) or proven any dramatic improvement in playing.

Are you even at a stage where you can fluently play any Etude from start to finish?

Cmon man, take a realistic approach to this and rethink your piano practice methods. People are advising on here, not insulting. (most anyway lol)

[philolog]

I see nothing wrong with trying to play through the etudes at any level (painstaking bar by painstaking bar, lol) At least a novice will gain some "hands-on" experience and have the pleasure of hearing the music in an immediate way, even if the technique required is light years beyond his current capability.

As to the danger of injury, I would tend to think that that happens more often with advanced pianists who push themselves too hard, although I grant you that this could also happen to a beginner.

As a general approach, why couldn't someone play simpler pieces which can more easily be mastered along with exploring the virtuoso repertoire? I think it's commendable that the OP has the curiosity and discipline to undertake this potentially frustrating quest. He's having fun, so why not?

Yes, having a knowledgeable teacher would help, but until that day arrives...

By the way, I remember reading that Josef Hoffmann supposedly said that no one will ever master the Chopin Etudes. From that point of view we're all beginners.

[adodd81802]

I don't think the curiosity is the main issue Philog. I agree, I have dabbled in all the pieces from the Chopin Ballades, to Liszts Rhapsodies and they have motivated me to work harder at the pieces within my range, but it seems the OP has dived straight into these very difficult pieces and worked on nothing within their actual skill range.

You could be spending months, years at pieces that are uncompletable(for use of a better word) because you lack the skills and knowledge to play the pieces you're attempting, it's not that we should condemn this approach, but there are so many more efficient and logical ways to learn the piano that it would be a "pianist crime" to allow somebody to continue with the OP's thought process.

Furthermore It would be ignorant to assume as a beginner, or even with a little experience that you could "guess" your way through playing these pieces. I'm not sure of your situation, but the OP does not have a teacher, they do not have much piano experience, and as mentioned has shown little to no progress on these etudes for over 5 months, and the progress they have shown so far has been questionable by some of the experienced players on here.

The intent is there, and it is good, but the logic is not, and combine that with the OP's general attitude towards piano playing as well as ill-given advice to others (evidence in other forums) they are setting themselves up for disaster, and not only do they question the advice of more experienced pianists, they reject it.

[philolog]

adodd, I think you've made some excellent points, but in the end it's up to you-know-who to follow your advice (might be a losing battle, though lol).

[yadeehoo]

mmm, that's pretty interesting comments.

I think speed finds it's way eventually when you're comfortable playing slowly, at least, it's like that for me. As for you judging I'm making no progress, you've compared 2 different pieces. So... how could you know?

Just can't help it to have too much fun practicing Chopin etudes, I don't think they're hard, I think they are what they are. It's enticing enough for me to want to study them. And yes it has expanded my noobie technique to a better level.

[visitor]

...

I think speed finds it's way eventually when you're comfortable playing slowly, at least, it's like that for me....
...

um. no. adaptation is stimulus specific. slow practice gets you better at playing slowly. practicing at speed gets you better at playing at speed.

one may need slow practice to identify an issue to correct first, or make sure note errors are addressed but to not go back and practice what was fixed at tempo but rather continue to play slowly does nothing towards playing the music properly.

tempo and dynamics, phrasing, articulation are as much part of the music. to not address and play them as called for in the score is to play /learn it wrong.

[yadeehoo]

um. no. adaptation is stimulus specific. slow practice gets you better at playing slowly. practicing at speed gets you better at playing at speed.

one may need slow practice to identify an issue to correct first, or make sure note errors are addressed but to not go back and practice what was fixed at tempo but rather continue to play slowly does nothing towards playing the music properly.

tempo and dynamics, phrasing, articulation are as much part of the music. to not address and play them as called for in the score is to play /learn it wrong.

Alright, let's say I'm the only person is the world for whom practicing slowly helps playing more fluidly, comfortably and eventually faster. I'm a phenomenon. You guys want to study me? That should be interesting...

[adodd81802]

Alright, let's say I'm the only person is the world for whom practicing slowly helps playing more fluidly, comfortably and eventually faster. I'm a phenomenon. You guys want to study me? That should be interesting...

LOL.