Learning Chopin Etudes in my 2nd year was more beneficial than I thought

[rachmaninoff_forever]

But is there any of guys here commenting that actually play these etudes? I hope so, otherwise it would be like being a doctor and telling a carpenter he's not holding his hammer right, yet he builds...

Yeah I've only played a couple because I don't like them THAT much.  

But just because you don't play a piece doesn't mean you don't know what you're talking about.  If that's the case then how do teachers teach students a piece that they themselves haven't played before?  I haven't played op 10 1 but I still know what you're getting into.  

The problem is that you're not advanced enough to be self evaluating like this.  You say that the Chopin etudes have been very beneficial but you haven't consulted with a teacher so you don't even know for sure that you're playing it the 'right' way.  You're not at the point to evaluate based on how you feel yet.  Just because something feels good doesn't mean that it actually is good.  And you don't get to that point until you're WAY into your piano studies.  And I'm talking like at least a decade maybe if you're a prodigy.

And we don't even know for sure if you're doing it right.  Cause you haven't posted a video yet.

We're not trying to shoot you down cause of some envy that you can play a Chopin étude at 2 years of playing, we're just trying to help because we know of and have seen some fucked up sh*t happen to pianists and other instrumentalists who try stuff that's really difficult without the proper guidance.

[chechig]

No, it's not a matter of if it's or not possible, the thing as I see is: Do I want to spend at least two years, trying to learn a piece that I love, wich ¡s far beyond my capabilities right now, and probably I will not master and wil be hating by the end of the learning? The answer for me obiously is: no, I dont. But if it works for you...

[yadeehoo]

Yeah I've only played a couple because I don't like them THAT much.  

But just because you don't play a piece doesn't mean you don't know what you're talking about.  If that's the case then how do teachers teach students a piece that they themselves haven't played before?  I haven't played op 10 1 but I still know what you're getting into.  

The problem is that you're not advanced enough to be self evaluating like this.  You say that the Chopin etudes have been very beneficial but you haven't consulted with a teacher so you don't even know for sure that you're playing it the 'right' way.  You're not at the point to evaluate based on how you feel yet.  Just because something feels good doesn't mean that it actually is good.  And you don't get to that point until you're WAY into your piano studies.  And I'm talking like at least a decade maybe if you're a prodigy.

And we don't even know for sure if you're doing it right.  Cause you haven't posted a video yet.

We're not trying to shoot you down cause of some envy that you can play a Chopin étude at 2 years of playing, we're just trying to help because we know of and have seen some fucked up sh*t happen to pianists and other instrumentalists who try stuff that's really difficult without the proper guidance.

Yeah I can only say I "feel" it's beneficial for me. And staying objective is pretty hard if possible at all. What i hear in my head is much different to what I hear back when I listen to it after. But taking videos is a better way towards objectivity. If it's not me spotting something, It will be someone esle and i'd be like : Omg, yeah, of course!

I don't plan on being a concert pianist, so I don't need a 2 hours repertoire, I'm doing this for me and only me. That's why i'm also a bit shy to show it in videos, cause I know the vision I have isn't reality yet

[yadeehoo]

No, it's not a matter of if it's or not possible, the thing as I see is: Do I want to spend at least two years, trying to learn a piece that I love, wich ¡s far beyond my capabilities right now, and probably I will not master and wil be hating by the end of the learning? The answer for me obiously is: no, I dont. But if it works for you...

I'm not gonna be a concert pianist, I have no pressure form family or teacher, no deadlines, Just all the time till I die to do my best.

Some pieces are a whole universe in themselves, a world to travel through and rediscover every time.

[yadeehoo]

We're not trying to shoot you down cause of some envy that you can play a Chopin étude at 2 years of playing, we're just trying to help because we know of and have seen some fucked up sh*t happen to pianists and other instrumentalists who try stuff that's really difficult without the proper guidance.

Like what?

[chechig]

Both pianist play the same piece, same notes, but... can you see the difference? This is one of the less complicated, not easy, there's not such a thing in Chopin's music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a6vlWYCFzM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tovh6JjaQ1A

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Like what?

Jazz pianist friend of mine got tendonitis cause of developing bad technique.  Another friend (acquaintance) of mine also got tendonitis but she got better with therapy.

I also heard some lady who won the Chopin competition a few years back had her career ended due to some hand injury but I don't know what.

[yadeehoo]

Both pianist play the same piece, same notes, but... can you see the difference? This is one of the less complicated, not easy, there's not such a thing in Chopin's music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a6vlWYCFzM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tovh6JjaQ1A

It sure helps to have a well tuned piano with well placed microphones. That would be fair if this guy played on the same setup as Martha

[yadeehoo]

Jazz pianist friend of mine got tendonitis cause of developing bad technique.  Another friend (acquaintance) of mine also got tendonitis but she got better with therapy.

I also heard some lady who won the Chopin competition a few years back had her career ended due to some hand injury but I don't know what.

Wow, that's sad to hear, especially when you're a pro musician making a living out of it.

Fortunately, I'm not a concert pianist, I don't have an audience to disappoint of I wreck my fingers. Most likely, it won't make any difference to anybody but me if I did, It would just be a sign it's time to quit pretentiously following my desires

[chechig]

In that case, the piano is not the important thing, but if you can not hear the differences, then you have a big problem.

[dogperson]

In that case, the piano is not the important thing, but if you can not hear the differences, then you have a big problem.

Don't know why you continue to try!  The OP has rebuffed all advice, in fact he has stated he doesn't want any, and he intends to do this his way.  Not worth the keystrokes.

[yadeehoo]

I like Martha's playing too, but if you wanna compared two renditions, you don't put Martha on one side on a million dollar piano with a professional recording, and on the other an amateur playing on an untuned piano recorded with an Iphone

[yadeehoo]

Don't know why you continue to try!  The OP has rebuffed all advice, in fact he has stated he doesn't want any, and he intends to do this his way.  Not worth the keystrokes.

Is this advice or you guys only stating your own opinion and tastes?

[dogperson]

Is this advice or you guys only stating your own opinion and tastes?

You have had a lot of advice and warnings, which you have rebuffed.
I am done and I hope others follow suit.  Do it your way.

[yadeehoo]

You have had a lot of advice and warnings, which you have rebuffed.
I am done and I hope others follow suit.  Do it your way.

I had your warnings, you are welcome out of my post

[outin]

It sure helps to have a well tuned piano with well placed microphones. That would be fair if this guy played on the same setup as Martha

Seriously? You don't hear the difference in the quality of playing? If so you really shouldn't be teaching yourself...especially not the Chopin etudes...

[outin]

Don't know why you continue to try!  The OP has rebuffed all advice, in fact he has stated he doesn't want any, and he intends to do this his way.  Not worth the keystrokes.

While the op may be beyond help, this thread has over 700 views already and I think it's well worth to state other opinions. Many beginners take advice from random threads in the internet without realizing how ill adviced that may be...

[outin]

I had your warnings, you are welcome out of my post

You seem to think that we have a mission of taking away your great feelings of learning to play music you love. Believe me, you are not the first one. When I went to my present teacher I did struggle with the idea of having to learn boring or even annoying music. Instead of giving up on a teacher who could demonstrate me LaCampanella like a pro  and then said "IF you ever want to play this kind of music you must...". I don't like that piece but there are many others of the same difficulty level I do love, so I took the bait. The fact that she believes I could do that starting at 45 felt amazing.

I then had to struggle to keep up the motivation to practice when the music didn't really inspire me. But I found a solution: I spent a lot if time looking for repertoire I could find interesting while also being accepted by my teacher. You say you have tried teachers but did not find it useful. That may be because you resist to take this path which I believe really is the only one working when the goals are such as yours.

I am ready to admit that the pieces in my signature are also not the best choices for someone who has only 4 years of lessons behind. But they are things I like and my teacher has accepted them. And I do learn them and from them, just slower than if I was learning something simpler. Would it be possible without my teacher? Definitely not because I would not do the right things.

My point? Do not give up on the idea of getting some teaching so easily. And if you do, then accept that you need to teach yourself something that is self-teachable.

[yadeehoo]

I live in a small town and all known teachers could not help me, not to learn Chopin at least.

The pieces is my signature might take a lifetime to master, but I'm not gonna be a concert pianist, I don't have any pressure, I work on them just cause I love them so much and they are the pieces I wanna play, and I understand how arrogant and stubborn it might sound.

It just happened that while playing Chopin etudes, I realized it was beneficial. And all the rest from there was a debate about teaching methods, which was fun too, we've been talking about a lot of things.

[yadeehoo]

My point? Do not give up on the idea of getting some teaching so easily. And if you do, then accept that you need to teach yourself something that is self-teachable.

It's all in the score tho. I have the URtext version, and it's the closest to what Chopin intended. I just read and play the score. I wanna be surprised by what comes out of it, it's very much a personal experience trying to reach the composer through his sheets.

If one person should tell you how to play music, it's the score itself. It's all in there. All the rest is physical training

[outin]

It's all in the score tho. I have the URtext version, and it's the closest to what Chopin intended. I just read and play the score. I wanna be surprised by what comes out of it, it's very much a personal experience trying to reach the composer through his sheets.

If one person should tell you how to play music, it's the score itself. It's all in there. All the rest is physical training

I think this is a big misunderstanding. It's not all in the score. The notation is only a skeleton. There's  a huge amount of tradition, technique and other information that is not in the score. And the composer took it by granted that you have it before you read the score.

Being stubborn is not necessarily negative. I am too as you have noticed. But without any flexibility it can become a great obstacle. You can spend your whole life with the pieces in your signature and never master them if you do it the wrong way. Many have tried and failed...

Maybe the teachers in your town cannot teach you the etudes as well as someone else, but if they can teach the basics of piano playing they will help you a long way on the path.

[hardy_practice]

I think this is a big misunderstanding. It's not all in the score.

Quite.  Chopin was asked by a student to mark all the performance indications on the score - he replied 'Madame, if I should do that the score would be black!'  

[hardy_practice]

.

[chechig]

Don't know why you continue to try!  The OP has rebuffed all advice, in fact he has stated he doesn't want any, and he intends to do this his way.  Not worth the keystrokes.

Yes, you are absolutely right. This guy doesnt want advice, he just wants us to tell him he has had the most brilliant idea in the world. Since he cant hear the differences in the two videos, i'ts clear he has a serious poblem. Anyway, I'm done, it's up to him, none of my bussines anymore.

[yadeehoo]

I think this is a big misunderstanding. It's not all in the score. The notation is only a skeleton. There's  a huge amount of tradition, technique and other information that is not in the score. And the composer took it by granted that you have it before you read the score.

Being stubborn is not necessarily negative. I am too as you have noticed. But without any flexibility it can become a great obstacle. You can spend your whole life with the pieces in your signature and never master them if you do it the wrong way. Many have tried and failed...

Maybe the teachers in your town cannot teach you the etudes as well as someone else, but if they can teach the basics of piano playing they will help you a long way on the path.

I see... Well like I told you I would really much to have a great teacher if I had access to one. My personal practice surely isn't the best. All the great pianists have had great teachers. But I believe as long as I stay pretty relaxed and don't get injuries, it's not wasted time, my sight reading is getting better too.

There's a saying that goes : You wish you had more but do your best with what you have now.

And that really all I can do, for now

[visitor]

There is a saying that goes

"Those convinced against their will are of the  same opinion still"
More discussion at
https://thesundowner.wordpress.com/2011/01/15/a-man-convinced-against-his-will-is-of-the-same-opinion-still/

Note ut is just a google hit, not a direct  and intentional oush of thst blogs agenda , more for the definition origin and meaning if the quote and nothing else since some wont quite understand what it is "saying"

[yadeehoo]

There is a saying that goes

"Those convinced against their will are of the  same opinion still"
More discussion at
https://thesundowner.wordpress.com/2011/01/15/a-man-convinced-against-his-will-is-of-the-same-opinion-still/

Wow, that's very insightful.

[yadeehoo]

Funnily, no one has tried to find out why these etudes have been beneficial to me.

Common thinking seems to assume that it's more detrimental than anything without the "proper" guidance.

There was a lot of outrage, should nots, impossibles and doubts. Yet the title is about me finding something beneficial.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

You keep saying that you're not gonna be a professional pianist.  It's not about training to become a professional, it's about trying to be the best you can be and/or getting good enough to play the pieces you wanna play WELL.

You say that you have bad teachers in your town because they don't wanna start you off with Chopin and now you won't get a teacher for that reason.  That's so narrow minded.  You need to be exposed to more music with different styles and techniques for you to get better so you can eventually play Chopin etudes effectively anyways.  You'll probably find more music you like on the way.  Nobody who has a good knowledge of repertoire ONLY likes one composer.  I don't think they're bad teachers, I just think they won't let you do what you want right away.  

We all went through the motions so we all KNOW what we're talking about.  If this post was meant to be inspirational, it's not.  It's just bad advice.  We don't want other beginners trying this out.  

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Funnily, no one has tried to find out why these etudes have been beneficial to me.

Common thinking seems to assume that it's more detrimental than anything without the "proper" guidance.

There was a lot of outrage, should nots, impossibles and doubts. Yet the title is about me finding something beneficial.

That's cause it could bring more harm than good in your situation.

Yeah it's common thinking because we know what we're talking about lol.

[yadeehoo]

That's cause it could bring more harm than good in your situation.

Yeah it's common thinking because we know what we're talking about lol.

You know what you're talking about, meaning, you can play these etudes?

And if there is a right time, WHEN?

There was an idiot coming to a new town, there was a huge rock. He decided to climb it. Villagers saw him climbing and yelled at him : Come down! We've all tried to climb it, it's impossible !! Turns the the idiot wasn't an idiot, he was just deaf. So he didn't hear anything and climbed it to the top.

it's just a story, ok, don't go all crazy about it 

[yadeehoo]

You keep saying that you're not gonna be a professional pianist.  It's not about training to become a professional, it's about trying to be the best you can be and/or getting good enough to play the pieces you wanna play WELL.

You say that you have bad teachers in your town because they don't wanna start you off with Chopin and now you won't get a teacher for that reason.  That's so narrow minded.  You need to be exposed to more music with different styles and techniques for you to get better so you can eventually play Chopin etudes effectively anyways.  You'll probably find more music you like on the way.  Nobody who has a good knowledge of repertoire ONLY likes one composer.  I don't think they're bad teachers, I just think they won't let you do what you want right away.  

We all went through the motions so we all KNOW what we're talking about.  If this post was meant to be inspirational, it's not.  It's just bad advice.  We don't want other beginners trying this out.  

I enjoy every minute of the practice on these pieces, they don't harm me. They make me happy as well as bringing me better control. Is it so hard to understand? Did you take a minute even considering what I'm saying might be true?

I'd rather play a difficult piece very slow with a nice sound. It's already pleasurable, the speed will come at the right time. It's just a sheet a music, you can play these pieces a 0,001 BPM if you want to.

[pianoman53]

How about stop bitching? There are different traditions in learning. Some goes gradually, some jumps. OP, if you want real advice on this site, you have to post videos. Here, people are stuck in one tradition. Go for playing what you want, just be aware of that you might miss seeing things, if the piece is too difficult.

[yadeehoo]

You say that you have bad teachers in your town because they don't wanna start you off with Chopin and now you won't get a teacher for that reason.  That's so narrow minded.

I never said they were "bad" teachers, just inappropriate.

You go buy a vanilla ice cream and you get a pistachio one, is it narrow minded to tell the vendor it's not what you came for?

[yadeehoo]

How about stop bitching? There are different traditions in learning. Some goes gradually, some jumps. OP, if you want real advice on this site, you have to post videos. Here, people are stuck in one tradition. Go for playing what you want, just be aware of that you might miss seeing things, if the piece is too difficult.

Why everybody keeps calling me an "OP" ? I don't even know what that is.

I wanna know the thing that I'm missing that everybody's talking about, so, I'm gonna make a new thread with videos

[pianoman53]

OP means Original poster

[yadeehoo]

OP means Original poster

  Thx

[rachmaninoff_forever]

You know what you're talking about, meaning, you can play these etudes?

And if there is a right time, WHEN?

There was an idiot coming to a new town, there was a huge rock. He decided to climb it. Villagers saw him climbing and yelled at him : Come down! We've all tried to climb it, it's impossible !! Turns the the idiot wasn't an idiot, he was just deaf. So he didn't hear anything and climbed it to the top.

it's just a story, ok, don't go all crazy about it  

Yes I can play these...

When?  Whenever you're ready.  That could be a few years or a few months.  You need to be patient.  

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I never said they were "bad" teachers, just inappropriate.

You go buy a vanilla ice cream and you get a pistachio one, is it narrow minded to tell the vendor it's not what you came for?

They're not inappropriate.  almost EVERY teacher you find in and outside your town will take the same approach.  

That's a false analogy.  Ice cream and piano repertoire are completely unrelated.

[yadeehoo]

 You need to be patient.  

Sorry, I think I failed there  

I have to discover the things that I'm missing, but it will be the topic of the next post.

Thx for your comments, Rach

[yadeehoo]

They're not inappropriate.  almost EVERY teacher you find in and outside your town will take the same approach. 

That's a false analogy.  Ice cream and piano repertoire are completely unrelated.

Actually, if you wanna know the truth, the teachers insisted that they didn't want to teach me.

I hope every teacher is not like that, tho. And I'm sure the good teacher for me is somewhere in this world.

About the Ice cream analogy, read it a few times, and you'll understand

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Actually, if you wanna know the truth, the teachers insisted that they didn't want to teach me.

I hope every teacher is not like that, tho. And I'm sure the good teacher for me is somewhere in this world.

About the Ice cream analogy, read it a few times, and you'll understand

So it's not that they won't teach you Chopin, they won't teach you in general?

I understand the ice cream analogy well.  It's still a bad analogy.  you don't build up skill and put in hard work to eat ice cream...

What you're saying is like trying to tell your trainer that you wanna run a marathon but don't wanna put in the proper training.

[yadeehoo]

So it's not that they won't teach you Chopin, they won't teach you in general?

Won't teach me in general, that's right

[quote author=rachmaninoff_forever link=topic=59730.msg642087#msg642087
I understand the ice cream analogy well.  It's still a bad analogy.  you don't build up skill and put in hard work to eat ice cream...
[/quote]

Looks like you still didn't get it

[quote author=rachmaninoff_forever link=topic=59730.msg642087#msg642087
What you're saying is like trying to tell your trainer that you wanna run a marathon but don't wanna put in the proper training.
[/quote]

No it's not what I'm saying

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Won't teach me in general, that's right

No it's not what I'm saying

I got your analogy.  You apparently didn't.

That's precisely what you're saying.  You don't wanna put in the work to build up a foundation to properly learn hard stuff is the same as a runner who doesn't wanna put in the work to run a marathon.

Why then won't they teach you?  NOBODY in your town doesn't want you as a student?

[yadeehoo]

 NOBODY in your town doesn't want you as a student?

Yes, because I'm not a child anymore. Teachers don't teach adults

[outin]

Yes, because I'm not a child anymore. Teachers don't teach adults

I am sad to hear that... Have you considered Skype lessons? Not the best option but better than nothing in my opinion. Even an occasional lesson with a qualified teacher would be helpful in studying the pieces.

[bronnestam]

Yes, because I'm not a child anymore. Teachers don't teach adults

I had the same problem. Finally I found a teacher in a nearby town, thank God. As an adult you are not supposed to pursue any interest seriously. There are "study circles" where you can learn the basic chords etcetera. Adult amateurs with higher ambitions are seen as odd creatures, trying "to do the impossible" (whatever that is supposed to mean!)

[yadeehoo]

I am sad to hear that... Have you considered Skype lessons? Not the best option but better than nothing in my opinion. Even an occasional lesson with a qualified teacher would be helpful in studying the pieces.

That would be great, I'm seriously considering it.

[yadeehoo]

I had the same problem. Finally I found a teacher in a nearby town, thank God. As an adult you are not supposed to pursue any interest seriously. There are "study circles" where you can learn the basic chords etcetera. Adult amateurs with higher ambitions are seen as odd creatures, trying "to do the impossible" (whatever that is supposed to mean!)

I'm so happy for you that you found someone. I was thinking I could find also a "piano Buddy" with whom i could share my findings, and vice versa, or some kind of community of passionate players to join. I might have to move to another town tho...

[kawai_cs]

That would be great, I'm seriously considering it.

If you are interested I could recommend you somebody. Have been using his website for a year now and found great tips there. Now I decided to give it a try and get a few lessons with him (additionally to my regular lessons) and I am really very happy. And the price is ok too.
I don't know if I can write it here so if you are interested I can PM you the info.
(PM=private message  )