proper piano lesson & the harm in taking an improper teacher

[prenoobie]

hi,
Got several questions, I don't know any musical terms so I apologize if there are any improper one & sorry for incorrect grammar.

I'm an adult in my 30s and started taking private keyboard lesson about a month ago (twice a week @ 45 minutes). The teacher only have keyboard in his class so i have to make do with keyboard lesson but I told him that my goal is to be able to play piano. The piano teaching is his side job (the teacher have an office 9-5 job) and there's no other teacher to be found in my area, so I can't switch teacher.

So far, (in the 6 classes i went), basically the lesson only consists of the teacher told me to play particular keys until the time's up and then I practice it at home & then I showed the progress in our next meeting and then we went to train another lines, no musical theory, note reading and other things so far.

From what I've found on the internet, the lines & the keys the teacher told me to strike was actually broken chords (arpeggio?) and it was an opening/beginning music from a simplified classical music, not sure, maybe the lesson is intended to be like the one taught in pianoforall online course (the one teaching piano by playing musical chords).

the questions:

• from my description above, does it sound like a proper piano teaching? because I don't have prior musical lesson before and I don't know what to expect
• even if it's an inferior lesson, am I right to think: "who am I to judge?, at the moment I even don't know what i don't know about piano, so I'll just take the lesson and if I'm progressing and become as good as the teacher, only then I'm entitled to a more advanced teacher" (I suppose getting better would take years and anything could happen in those years, eg: there would be more established music schools available in my town by then or I happen to move out of the town and live in an area which have a better teacher, etc).
  
  or should I be worry that an inferior teaching would make me develop a bad habits that are game breaking? any specific example of this scenario?
  
• a little of topic: hand and finger independence, how do I improve it? I saw some videos on youtube and amazed by how the fingers on both of the player's hands can move independently and I can't even synchronize my hands for some simple tunes

thanks!

P

[adodd81802]

Hi,

Firstly it is great you are looking to start playing the piano. Firstly, you have said that you want to eventually learn to play the piano, I think it would certainly benefit to start from the beginning doing what you want to do. You don't practice the electric guitar knowing full well you prefer acoustic,
or a cello for a violin!

That aside you have mentioned a shortage of teachers in your area. Firstly if you have any concerns about why you are being taught something or what your long term lesson plans are - ask your teacher?

We cannot question what we do not know if your teacher gives you an explanation, put that on here and find out what other piano teachers think of their response.

Next there's a certain amount of your own research you can do yourself if you have no other teachers to fill the gap of what you are trying to accomplish. By that I mean, you can learn the piano theory there is such a vast amount of information available online for free. I first learnt to read music by myself. It was long, there was no shortcuts (I had no teacher when I was first learning the piano) I literally memorized the notes, I didn't know what scales were. Had I started the piano now I'd have gotten up to speed so much quicker.

Next set your own goals, and take them to your teacher and see if you can make a plan around accomplishing those goals, find out what your teacher can and can't offer you so you can work out what gaps you need to fill.  If there's something they can't do, or if they set you unrealistic plans again bring to Pianostreet and get some feedback on that.

Piano lessons are not compulsory and neither are Piano teachers there's nothing wrong with having your own goals and using your teacher to get you there, rather than rely on your teacher to steer you and you question what you're doing (where you are now)

Lastly finger independence is a broad term and as a beginner i'm not sure it's what you're referring too. All hands can move independently, you typed this message on a keyboard right? one hand typed some letters, the other hand typed some more they're already independent of eachother it's just a new concept of playing the piano that makes you think you aren't.

Now there are various studies and exercises you can find either on piano street or online from the likes of "Hanon" Exercises "Czerny" Exercises, most are all free on the internet, they do however also mostly require you to be able to read music. Take your time, walk before you can run.

To summarise;

Set your goals (both long term and short term)
Speak with your teacher about your goals
Find out with your teacher where they are going with your lessons (and your money!)
Ask your teacher about the gaps you may need to fill for the piano that you won't learn in their keyboard lessons.
Learn to read music!
Post your findings back to Pianostreet!

When you're ready, get in the audition forum and record some songs!

Hope that helps.

[indianajo]

Learning arpeggio chords is not wasted time.  This is helpful to learning to play by ear.  That is a useful skill but not the only one.  I hope the teacher is teaching you the names of the chords you are learning, so you can relate them to charts in lead sheets and fake books.   Reading music and playing without looking at the hands was a primary goal of my study. Both skills are necessary to the complete pianist.  I'm learning to use lead sheets in my sixties, as my college trained teacher did not have the skill of playing by ear.  
Absolutely key to playing in the beginning is proper posture.  Sitting erect, head up, forearms drooping slightly from the elbow, hands held straight from the wrist, fingers curved down to the keys. Hope your teacher has explained this to you.  If not, move on. Selecting the relation of the bench height and setback to the music rack and keys is important to an adult.    Improper posture can cause spine injury and hand damage, as well as cutting the power available to press the keys on an acoustic piano.
Hand independence is usually developed by "exercises".  I was first put through 18 months of Schmitt excercises, which are boring but  develop exactly that skill.  Ten minutes a day on a right hand and a left hand exercise, for a week each.  These exercises can be downloaded from pianostreet. After the 18 months I moved on to Edna Mae Berman exercise books.  I've seen Hanon books at Salvation Army resale; they seem disorganized and not consecutive by difficulty the way EMB books are.  
There are various recommendations for instruction books for the adult on other threads.  The one I took, John W. Schaum, is very much for children and I think adults would find it peurile.  My mother did work through those, but it was 1948 after all.    
My theory training was rudimentary the first couple of years.  Every Good Boy does Fine, Face, Good Boy does Fine Always, for staff training, quarter notes, half and whole notes, beating a steady rhythm was about it for the first couple of years.  I didn't do theory exercise books until the third or fourth year.  
Hope your begin to achieve your goals.  The task is difficult and boring the first year or two, but very rewarding in the third year and onwards.  Perhaps an adult or any other student can go faster; I was no star at learning speed.  I only excelled at correctly playing what I'd learned at recital time.  

[prenoobie]

hi, thanks for the comments and sorry for the late reply.

Firstly if you have any concerns about why you are being taught something or what your long term lesson plans are - ask your teacher?

the concern is not about why he teach me something, but more like is there/will there be anything he's not teaching me and why?

for the first 3 lessons, he taught me fingering, and then (until now) he's teaching me simplified "claudine-maksim mrvica" (not necessarily "simplified", he knew the tune by ear and replaying it on class, some differences here and there-compared it to the videos on youtube).
 

Next there's a certain amount of your own research you can do yourself if you have no other teachers to fill the gap of what you are trying to accomplish.

tried it, bought the pianoforall course and downloaded some free e-books, but I have a hard time understanding the books and got burnt out quickly  so I figure I'll just take it slow, let the teacher told me what to do/read/practice and I'll do it until I know the basic just enough to be able to contextualize the books.

Next set your own goals, and take them to your teacher and see if you can make a plan around accomplishing those goals, find out what your teacher can and can't offer you so you can work out what gaps you need to fill.

the goals already been told to the teacher (to be able to play pop/lounge music/video games music decently for myself). I can't exactly ask the syllabus (not sure if there's any) so I wouldn't know what he can offer, but from the conversation we had, I think he's leaning on teaching piano to play by ear and no theory whatsoever.

I'm afraid to ask him like "will you teach me this?", while I can't even play a simple tune. It's like asking calculus while I don't even know basic math.

Piano lessons are not compulsory and neither are Piano teachers there's nothing wrong with having your own goals and using your teacher to get you there, rather than rely on your teacher to steer you and you question what you're doing (where you are now)

that's what I'm asking :

knowing that i'm on level zero, like I said, i don't even know what i don't know
and
assuming the teacher's method really is inferior.

Am I right to think: be that as it may, at the moment I can't even play the simple simplified music, at least I can learn with this teacher until i can become as good as him and then I can learn by myself or get a new teacher.

or is there any risk of learning it wrong by having a bad teacher and the mistakes would become hard to fix later on?

Lastly finger independence is a broad term and as a beginner i'm not sure it's what you're referring too. All hands can move independently, you typed this message on a keyboard right? one hand typed some letters, the other hand typed some more they're already independent of eachother it's just a new concept of playing the piano that makes you think you aren't.

hmm, independence like: the fingers on the right hand vs left hand play at different speed?

Learning arpeggio chords is not wasted time.  This is helpful to learning to play by ear.  That is a useful skill but not the only one.  I hope the teacher is teaching you the names of the chords you are learning, so you can relate them to charts in lead sheets and fake books.

I'm sure it's useful, but until now the teacher doesn't really explain the chords name or anything,
he just played the tunes, wrote the notes in numbers (1-3-5-1-5-3-1, like that) and told me to play it, he'd explain if I ask though, like the time I asked him like "why do the pattern change?", and he said something like: ow, it's C major 7, blah blah blah, but I can't help to think that he thinks that we're wasting time if I asked too many questions instead of practicing.

....The task is difficult and boring the first year or two, but very rewarding in the third year and onwards.

well  this is gonna sound stupid, but that's what makes me suspicious about the teacher's method >_< I don't feel bored at all most people said the same thing (that it would be hard and tedious) but so far it's a bit frustrating (to learn to strike the correct keys) but fun. It feels like the pleasure of not studying before an exam.


note: due to my limited choice of words (not native english speaker), I seem to denigrate the teacher's ability. but i'm in no way thinking like that, so let me summarize:

• the teacher's got steady 9-5 job, he teach musical instruments in community center as a side, non profit job
• there's no other teacher in my area and I have no prior music education so I don't have anything to compare or to judge the teacher's ability (and I got it cheap, about $25 a month for a private 45 minutes-twice a week lesson thus the feeling that if i asked too many questions I'd sound like an ungrateful student)   
  
• knowing that I don't have any experience/skill and assuming the teacher's really not that good, I still want/have to learn from him because there's no other teacher and compared to his alleged bad skill, I'm still nothing
  

but

• I wanna know if there's any harm/uncorrectable mistakes if I take a lesson from a bad teacher or I can learn just enough from him and then progressing by myself later on
  

thanks
[/list]

[dcstudio]

  (to be able to play pop/lounge music/video games music decently for myself).

if this is your goal it sounds like you have the perfect teacher.   Most of the people here are very classically oriented and some have dreams of being concert pianists.... but that is not why you are learning to play.  Can this teacher do what you want to be able to do? Do you enjoy his playing?  It sounds like he has a good ear..  is it because he plays by ear that you think he has no theory knowledge?   Have you ever seen him read music?

reading music and playing piano are two entirely different things...    you can read music without playing the piano... and you can also play the piano without reading music.

He plays Maksim--are you Croatian? just curious--your English sounds very Eastern European --anyway... 

who exactly has told you that you should be playing the piano not the keyboard--who has put this idea of "proper lessons" in your head.   I am guessing they are from the UK...or they speak English..  does this person who has told you all of this...do they play...or claim to play?

to play lounge music, video game music, pop standards...  requires a solid ear far more than an ability to read large scores of piano music.  If you want to play the Mario Brother's theme then you should not be studying with a professional classical teacher who is going to teach you Beethoven--you should be studying with someone who has a solid ear. 

all this talk of bad habits and poor teaching has you psyched out and I am just wondering why this has happened.  Someone has convinced you that this teacher is no good...  I am not going to comment one way or the other...except to say that this teacher you are with seems to be able to do--what you want to be able to do.   Classical guys tend to struggle with jazz and improv in the same way the pop pianists tend to struggle with the classical pieces. 

if you post a video of your playing and ask for comments on your technique you will get enough feedback to determine if you have any detrimental habits...  then you can rest easy again. 

[timothy42b]

There is more than one way to learn piano.  This teacher might be right for you.  He wouldn't be right for most people - even if your focus is going to be ear playing and learning by rote, you need to start out reading at least a little.

He needs to address basic posture and fingering from the beginning.  That might be more important than what you play.

You are wrong about not having access to other teachers.  You made it to this forum so you have internet access.  You can do Skype lessons with any country in the world.

But you won't get it that cheap.  8 lessons a month for $25?  most of us pay more than that for one lesson. 

[dcstudio]

you need to start out reading at least a little.

He needs to address basic posture and fingering from the beginning.  That might be more important than what you play.

But you won't get it that cheap.  8 lessons a month for $25?  most of us pay more than that for one lesson. 

I couldn't agree with you more...    by a solid ear player I don't mean someone who can't read... I mean someone who can listen to the tune and then transcribe it for you and notate it right there on the spot.   

$25 per month??  these must be group lessons, right?

[prenoobie]

Can this teacher do what you want to be able to do? Do you enjoy his playing?  It sounds like he has a good ear

yes, yes, and yes. but at my current level of knowledge, which is non-existent, I would be easily impressed.

is it because he plays by ear that you think he has no theory knowledge? Have you ever seen him read music? 

he said he can read music sheet but mostly he play by ear, not sure about the theory knowledge, I believe he once took a formal music course but that's a long time ago, and he's somewhat a talented musician, he can play a lot of musical instruments (he teaches violin, guitar, vocal lesson, keyboard, and some traditional music instruments) so I don't think the theory means anything to him.

He plays Maksim--are you Croatian? just curious--your English sounds very Eastern European --anyway... 

nah, I'm in Indonesia, about the maksim piece; when he first taught me the tune, he didn't tell me what song it is, I asked him a couple lessons after and he said "it's maksim's, I heard it a long time ago not knowing the title, and then later i found out on youtube that it's maksim, but couldn't remember the song title" (later i googled for maksim and found out that the title is claudine).

who exactly has told you that you should be playing the piano not the keyboard

well, it's me. The piano sounds divine and majestic compared to keyboard

--who has put this idea of "proper lessons" in your head.   I am guessing they are from the UK...or they speak English..  does this person who has told you all of this...do they play...or claim to play?

no one in particular, the doubts came from what i read on the internet like piano nanny & piano world forum that studying piano will be chock full of a lot of theory, music reading, and some technical terms (hanon exercise, czerny, chords, inverted chords, arpeggio, staccato, legato and whatnot) whereas the teacher:

• a gifted musician: able to play a lot of musical instruments (jack of all trade, master of none) and I'm afraid that having an innate talent made him unfamiliar to the limitation of average student
• have a 9-5 job and the piano/keyboard teaching is more like a charity case (he had to postpone/switch schedule the lesson several times because of work)
• so far no theory whatsoever
  

.
.
.
sigh...I'm so negative 

if this is your goal it sounds like you have the perfect teacher.

to play lounge music, video game music, pop standards...  requires a solid ear far more than an ability to read large scores of piano music.  If you want to play the Mario Brother's theme then you should not be studying with a professional classical teacher who is going to teach you Beethoven--you should be studying with someone who has a solid ear. 

...except to say that this teacher you are with seems to be able to do--what you want to be able to do.   Classical guys tend to struggle with jazz and improv in the same way the pop pianists tend to struggle with the classical pieces.

if you post a video of your playing and ask for comments on your technique you will get enough feedback to determine if you have any detrimental habits...  then you can rest easy again. 

aah, great then!!!

He needs to address basic posture and fingering from the beginning.  That might be more important than what you play.

hmm, he mention about the posture a bit, like "you should sit like this" but that's it (beside, we use keyboard on an X stand & sit on a plastic chair)

You are wrong about not having access to other teachers.  You made it to this forum so you have internet access.  You can do Skype lessons with any country in the world.

well, this is on me, mea culpa  I'm not a good at self teaching (for me: reading from internet counts as self teaching), for me I'm gonna need a routine face to face meeting with a teacher to progress.

$25 per month??  these must be group lessons, right?

nah, it's a private tutoring. Like I said, it's more like a charity, the teacher's source of income comes from his 9-5 job. The music instruments teaching is primarily intended for a youth center, but he also teach private piano/keyboard, violin, and vocal lesson (the poster said piano/keyboard)

thanks  I guess I have nothing to worry about.

[timothy42b]

I'm not a good at self teaching (for me: reading from internet counts as self teaching), for me I'm gonna need a routine face to face meeting with a teacher to progress.  I guess I have nothing to worry about.

I didn't mean self teaching, I meant having a regular lesson one on one with a teacher, but on Skype rather than in the same room.  It can work well. 

Nothing to worry about?  Maybe yes, maybe no.  Check your progress in a year.  I have a friend who's been taking lessons for 5 years from a mediocre teacher and she isn't much better.  If you're making progress stay with him, if not move on.