Practicing for 3-4 hours

[rustyzofkeys]

So, I've been an intermediate pianist/keyboardist for a month already, and it's been 2 years since I've started playing the piano. In the first year, I would practice for 20 to 45 minutes, and I'm still the best student in the music class of the school (that was the music teacher of the public school, but now he's retired). In the second year, I've practiced from 30 to 1 hour, and made it to the top three students of a professional concert pianist (she's also really good at teaching others. Even today, I'm still being taught by her). However, I plan on taking it to the next level, going for 3 to 4 hours of practice. Is that enough, or should I go higher?

[senanserat]

Practice smarter, not harder.

[rustyzofkeys]

Actually I do practice smart. Try to practice as efficient as possible, but also take breaks after 30 minutes of practice.

[brogers70]

The best way to answer that question is to try it out. Spend a few weeks doing 3-4 hours per day. How does it feel? Are you making more progress? Can you concentrate? DO you enjoy it? Then adjust up or down as required.

[adodd81802]

Violinist Nathan Milstein is said to have once asked his teacher Leopold Auer how many hours a day he should be practicing. Auer responded by saying “Practice with your fingers and you need all day. Practice with your mind and you will do as much in 1 1/2 hours.”

I probably practice around 2 hours to 3 hours depending on my work and other things, however they're probably broken up in to 30 minute to 60 minute sessions (before work / lunch break and evening)

I think broken up practice is good because it gives you a fresh mind to approach the piano even after a 15 minute break, gives your brain a rest more than anything.

Many famous pianists seem to go through bursts like some days no more than a few hours to other days going for 10, I think you should have goals in mind with the practice and allocate a suitable time frame to accomplish the goals and then work out reasonable practice session times.

More isn't always better but it sounds like you're already practicing a good amount, or at the least making the most out of your practice sessions.

[dogperson]

I have been going back to old posts to look at Bernhards' practice techniques--- you might find this useful

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4689.msg44184.html#msg44184

[pencilart3]

should I go higher?

Are you seriously asking if you should spend 5 to 6 hours PER DAY on piano? Nobody is going to tell you to spend 1/4 of your life practicing an instrument. When it gets to significant percentages of your lifetime, the call is yours.

[dcstudio]

Are you seriously asking if you should spend 5 to 6 hours PER DAY on piano? Nobody is going to tell you to spend 1/4 of your life practicing an instrument. When it gets to significant percentages of your lifetime, the call is yours.

3 or 4 hours a day is on the low side actually at university 6 is kind of standard or it was in my day...but the call is yours.   It takes a lot of fortitude to commit to a full practice schedule.

There have been times when I played 12 hours a day...  it is really tough to maintain that amount of piano time for very long though... my brain literally warped out after while. 

[pencilart3]

Sorry, did the OP say he/she was at a university? I must have missed that.

[outin]

Sorry, did the OP say he/she was at a university? I must have missed that.

After 2 years of playing I doubt it. But I guess he does not have to earn his living, if he could manage to practice 5-6 hours a day...or he doesn't need to sleep...

[dcstudio]

Sorry, did the OP say he/she was at a university? I must have missed that.

no he did not...  I was simply saying that when I was at school... most of the pianists put in about 6 hours a day.

and that true obsession starts to kick in at about 10-12 hours per day...  from my experience

[kawai_cs]

I think it is very individual how many hours one practices a day. It must depend on goals.
I found the post by Bernhard that was linked above very helpful. He said - set a goal and then adjust time needed. I think it is very solution-oriented and works towards meeting deadlines and making progress.
Until not a long time ago I have been practicing just like that, without a plan. A little bit of this, a little bit of that and now I actually find myself not playing any of my pieces as good as they deserve. Thus I am starting to structure my practice more and think in terms of progressing with little steps. No more playing through whole pieces (which is fun) but does not bring much towards perfecting them. Concentrating on parts of pieces, details, practicing and mastering them and then moving on to the next part.

[outin]

Until not a long time ago I have been practicing just like that, without a plan. A little bit of this, a little bit of that and now I actually find myself not playing any of my pieces as good as they deserve. Thus I am starting to structure my practice more and think in terms of progressing with little steps. No more playing through whole pieces (which is fun) but does not bring much towards perfecting them. Concentrating on parts of pieces, details, practicing and mastering them and then moving on to the next part.

But there are not only two options, either very structured practice plan or ineffcicient practice and "just playing through". I am very unstructured when it comes to what I do with my practice sessions, but at the same time I am very detail oriented and focused in the WAY I practice. So while every practice sessions is different and I make the decision on what to do on the go, I hardly ever just play through things or jump mindlessly from one thing to another. I practice a detail/passage/piece until I feel it's not productive anymore and then move to another one. As an amateur with little time I feel this gives me better results than any fixed plan. If I have only 15 minutes, it makes no sense to start going through a routine. I pick a passages or two and work on the details. On a weekend when I may have hours to spend I can work differently, even do scales and exercises.

The fact is, sometimes 5 minutes is enough to solve a problem and sometimes it takes an hour. So my practice starts with evaluation of how much time I have and what would be the most productive way to use it. It also depends on my mental state. I feel it's always most productive to work on things that one feels most interested in learning at the moment instead of trying to force oneself to concentrate on something else. But maybe it's just me, I am not good at concentrating on routines by will. But I am very good at concentrating on a problem at hand until it's solved.

[hfmadopter]

The fact is, sometimes 5 minutes is enough to solve a problem and sometimes it takes an hour. So my practice starts with evaluation of how much time I have and what would be the most productive way to use it. It also depends on my mental state. I feel it's always most productive to work on things that one feels most interested in learning at the moment instead of trying to force oneself to concentrate on something else. But maybe it's just me, I am not good at concentrating on routines by will. But I am very good at concentrating on a problem at hand until it's solved.

This would be the practice smarter (name it as you choose however) routine. You know what is working for you and utilize it. I do much the same, however I'm retired so have time for play through as well. I do like to hear the piece after all and very much enjoy playing the whole thing ! Playing through also shows weak spots that you then can can go back to and figure out what's wrong.

To the OP: Years ago when I was with my teacher not too much longer than you have been being taught ( maybe 3-4 years in out of 11) I started a routine of 2-3 hours and that often spilled over to 5 hours. I won't boast best of class status but the extra time shows, generally speaking, assuming you use it wisely. As you go up in repertoire you will need more time invested. Adjust accordingly. Practicing smart goes pretty much without saying, it's foolish to just keep slugging over and over the piece, reinforcing mistakes. You need to deal with them head on. IE, tackle them.

[kawai_cs]

. If I have only 15 minutes, it makes no sense to start going through a routine. I pick a passages or two and work on the details. On a weekend when I may have hours to spend I can work differently, even do scales and exercises.

That is what I am missing and should actually start doing. When I only have 15 minutes (or even 30 minutes!) I do not go to the piano because I think it is anyway not enough time to do anything! Now, when I read your post I see how ridiculous it actually is and how much time I do not use as I could.
I am weird as it comes to practicing because once I sit at the piano I can do it for hours. I sometimes plan to split it, say in 2 sessions, but it never works. I will just practice in one chunk as long as I can.

[hfmadopter]

That is what I am missing and should actually start doing. When I only have 15 minutes (or even 30 minutes!) I do not go to the piano because I think it is anyway not enough time to do anything! Now, when I read your post I see how ridiculous it actually is and how much time I do not use as I could.
I am weird as it comes to practicing because once I sit at the piano I can do it for hours. I sometimes plan to split it, say in 2 sessions, but it never works. I will just practice in one chunk as long as I can.

It just seems unlikely that you would be getting the most from your practice by sitting it out in one whole chunk. Even when I practiced (for lessons) or practice within my own compositions today,  I need a break to reboot !! lol. Have a soft drink, get a little energy from a nibble. A few raisins, a granola bar etc. Short break though, like 5-10 minutes or so, enough to reboot but not enough to lose train of thought. Just sayin.

 Then again, sometimes I do need a complete change up. I've left the piano for a few days and gone fishing or tie some flies, when I come back something came right together sometimes. That's a total refresh that I needed. You don't really lose ground or I don't anyway. But then I'm not at the level some folks here are at either, with their documentation and such.

[outin]

I am weird as it comes to practicing because once I sit at the piano I can do it for hours. I sometimes plan to split it, say in 2 sessions, but it never works. I will just practice in one chunk as long as I can.

I am like that too. In anything I do, it's really hard for me to take breaks if I don't have time restrictions. I don't feel I need them and when I get sucked into some work, I just forget the time and the idea of taking a break just annoys me. The thing that usually makes me stop practicing the piano is my bad back and on a good day it won't bother me at all. But of course I don't just play when at the piano, I stop to think as well...

I learned to take advantage of shorter sessions after I started practicing in the morning before going to work. And depending on how slow I am in the morning and whether I have to go there early, there might not be much time to sit at the piano. But do it every morning anyway, no matter how short the time. There are weeks when I can hardly get any other practice, but I still manage to do some progress for my lessons, so obviously it's not all about quantity...

[dcstudio]

But there are not only two options, either very structured practice plan or ineffcicient practice and "just playing through".

that's why it's so great to play jazz...   unstructured practice time is not necessarily inefficient in this genre.  Improv is part of the daily routine.   Guess that's why I can sit there for hours and hours.  I am "in training" now for a Rockabilly gig in Nov.  so I spend a bit of time each day playing those bass lines... that's kinda structured...lol.

[kawai_cs]

I think improvisation is certainly a great exercise for your brain and hands. I wonder how much harder it is to improvise than to perform a piece?

[handz]

When I sit to piano, I can spend there easily 6 and more hours if I have time, with little pauses. I play, improvise, do  some scales and arpeggios.... then usually like now, when i not play 2 days (I was ill) and get back to it, I find myself to play much better haha

[dcstudio]

I think improvisation is certainly a great exercise for your brain and hands. I wonder how much harder it is to improvise than to perform a piece?

...but you have that backwards..  it's FAR easier to improvise than to perform..   

there's no pressure --- the audience has no melodic expectations because they can't anticipate what you are going to play.  There are no wrong notes.     well there are--but they really don't remember them...lol  If the rhythm and form are solid -- and you look and sound like you know what you are doing... the audience will love it.

classical pianists tend to imagine scores upon scores of notated music when they listen to a 7 minute jazz improv piano solo--that's why it's perceived by to be so hard.. it's really

[hfmadopter]

...but you have that backwards..  it's FAR easier to improvise than to perform..   

there's no pressure --- the audience has no melodic expectations because they can't anticipate what you are going to play.  There are no wrong notes.     well there are--but they really don't remember them...lol  If the rhythm and form are solid -- and you look and sound like you know what you are doing... the audience will love it.

classical pianists tend to imagine scores upon scores of notated music when they listen to a 7 minute jazz improv piano solo--that's why it's perceived by to be so hard.. it's really

I'm inclined to agree, just sort of ramble about, making sense of course, but totally free. Start with a theme, expand upon it, even change keys, then bring it all back to the original. However, as easy as that all goes, if it were to be scored out and then someone else sat down to the 7 minutes of work you just did ? It may not go so easy for them. I know that for myself I use up a lot of keyboard real estate doing this ( not jazz, more new age/classical in nature). It comes so easy but in a score, with it's many nuances listed, octaves used, beat changes, syncopation etc. maybe not so easy after all. You do need to have reached at least a certain level of knowledge to even have a go at it and a sense of rhythm and harmony too. No harmony, no melody , it's a big flop !! I know of a composer who hosts piano solo radio. He gets floods of submissions, he says the deal breaker is usually a lack of melody in these would be solo hits. They may have everything else but no melody. And these largely are of an improv nature.

Just sayin.

[dcstudio]

I'm inclined to agree, just sort of ramble about, making sense of course, but totally free. Start with a theme, expand upon it, even change keys, then bring it all back to the original. However, as easy as that all goes, if it were to be scored out and then someone else sat down to the 7 minutes of work you just did ? It may not go so easy for them. I know that for myself I use up a lot of keyboard real estate doing this ( not jazz, more new age/classical in nature). It comes so easy but in a score, with it's many nuances listed, octaves used, beat changes, syncopation etc. maybe not so easy after all. You do need to have reached at least a certain level of knowledge to even have a go at it and a sense of rhythm and harmony too. No harmony, no melody , it's a big flop !! I know of a composer who hosts piano solo radio. He gets floods of submissions, he says the deal breaker is usually a lack of melody in these would be solo hits. They may have everything else but no melody. And these largely are of an improv nature.

Just sayin.

you are absolutely right...

in it's beginning stages of development and in the hands of an inexperienced pianist... the improvisations tend to lack any kind of melody or harmonic progression... and just to make it worse there's often no rhythm either...  it's awful..  painful actually. 

...and you have to go through that pain to learn how to do it well...  THAT is really why the classically trained musician finds it almost impossible to do.  Those beginning stages are so unfamiliar and frightening that many give up before they figure out that it's not nearly as hard as they thought it was.  They cannot take the agony of not playing well when they have had so much training.  I speak from experience, too.   The ONLY reason I can do it is because I was thrown into a jazz piano gig 20 years ago and I HAD to do it to earn a living.  Somehow... that made it quite a bit easier.

There's nothing worse than a classical pianist who has made the crossover to jazz...  again I speak from experience...  I knew that most of the performance majors I went to school with were incapable of doing what I could do.  LOL...and that  gave me quite a big ego about my jazz skills for a while as it does most pianists... after being mowed down by other more technically able players most of my life-- I finally had a way to hold my own musically.   I became quite a showoff--because, well I could... as can all jazzers...  and THAT is the root of the long standing division between jazzers and the classical crowd...

In my humble opinion, of course.

most jazz pianists can play classical pieces--but most classical players can't improvise and if they can they are usually robotic and square--- or completely formless.

[hfmadopter]

you are absolutely right...

in it's beginning stages of development and in the hands of an inexperienced pianist... the improvisations tend to lack any kind of melody or harmonic progression... and just to make it worse there's often no rhythm either...  it's awful..  painful actually. 

In my humble opinion, of course.

But of course DC, always humble ! It took for me, a leap of faith, literally. like sit down, I had this triplet in my head, had to find the key first, which turned out to be Am. Then the triplet descended to the A. knowing that, well of course you can put an Am cord structure to that. Then just play, like anything, no effort, the more you try the worse it will be . And my first ever piece of music was born.  From there, well I do this regularly now. I'm two years into this stuff after a lifetime of thinking it was something I would probably never do.

I'm not into jazz though, it's just a category of music that has never latched on to me. Though it can use some beats I like.

[plumblossom]

Since all of you here practice for about 2 - 3 hours, I wonder what does your practice consist of?  I am self-taught right now, and would like to be 'technically' strong one day, beside just being to able to play a piece of music. 

[pencilart3]

Since all of you here practice for about 2 - 3 hours, I wonder what does your practice consist of?  I am self-taught right now, and would like to be 'technically' strong one day, beside just being to able to play a piece of music. 

I warm up for 15 minutes.
Then Bach for 1/2 hour.
Then Ginastera for 1/2 hour.
Then Chopin for 1 hour.
Then any new piece I want to try for about 15 minutes.
Then finger exercises. Usually ones I make up.

[plumblossom]

Pencilart, what do you mean Bach? Chopin? and Ginastro (sorry if I spelled it wrong, probably a piano composer who I have never heard of)?  A piece of music, or an piano etude that they wrote?

[hfmadopter]

Since all of you here practice for about 2 - 3 hours, I wonder what does your practice consist of?  I am self-taught right now, and would like to be 'technically' strong one day, beside just being to able to play a piece of music. 

What ever it takes to make my own personal compositions work. They come to me out of thin air but that doesn't mean that I don't have to refine scales, chords etc. that are used within them. And I practice them for performance as well.

I also work up arrangements made from lead sheets of various hymns, spiritual music, carols etc. First to create the arrangement then practice to perform them.

Within all this, I may go to classical composers pieces to work out ideas within my own music. I haven't worked specifically on classical to perform in some time ( think years). But I do keep in touch so to speak, to utilize ideas.

[tenk]

Chopin for 15 minutes.
Then Chopin for 1/2 hour.
Then Chopin for 1/2 hour.
Then Chopin for 1 hour.
Then any new Chopin piece I want to try for about 15 minutes.
Then Chopin exercises.

Fixed that for you Pencil  

[pencilart3]

Fixed that for you Pencil  

Hey! I haven't posted everything in the audition room yet! haha


but that's kind of true

[ffchopinist]

Hi rustyzofkeys! That's great that you're ready to commit to more practice.

 I used to practice 3-4 hrs daily when i was growing up, and my teacher always emphasized the following:

1. Don't do it all in one chunk. Take breaks between sessions, or you risk too much muscle tension or even injury.

2. Focused practice is better than aimless long practice. Have an objective in mind.

3. Stretch your hand /fingers (SAFELY) before practice to loosen up and avoid injury.

4. I usually started with 15-30 min of scales / Czerny, then pieces  (usually Bach before moving onto classical/romantic/etc pieces I was working on), then finished the day by playing some favorite "older" pieces for review or whatever I wanted for fun (improv, etc).   When working on pieces, it's better to work in depth on a small chunk at a time vs playing the entire thing from start to finish aimlessly.

5. The metronome is your friend!

You'll get a lot more out of 3-4 hrs of focused practice broken into sections than 8+ hrs of less focused practice. Diminishing returns definitely kicks in.  Focus is key!

Hope this helps, and happy practicing!