Reading sheet music - confused on very basics!

[movilogo]

Please have a look at this example (just an example - nothing special about the image)

https://www.musicnotes.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/The-C-Scale-on-a-Staff-Final.jpg

Question:

Does a specific staff notation symbol (e.g. the symbol for middle C in above picture) always indicate same key in piano? I mean, in this example, that symbol for C always notes middle C key in the piano?

I understand when using another scale (say G major) it will indicate a separate not, but will it still correspond to same physical key in the keyboard?

 

[adodd81802]

So again I think there is some piano theory here where you could get easily confused by the different jargon.

Technically yes, the middle C there at the bottom and all the other notes above it will always reflect the same place on the piano on the assumption that you are playing in the treble clef (the symbol before the 4/4)

You also have the base clef (not pictured) for notes written (Generally) below middle C which shifts the notes up by 2, so that same "middle C" indicated in your picture, would be a low E in the base clef. (let me know if you need clarification on that)

However even with the Treble and Base Clefs and even written lines through the notes (like middle C) to indicate what they are, there will be times where you need notes even higher or even lower, and that's indicated on the score by an 8va/8vb with lines showing what notes are included.

See my attached example.

8va means you play an octave above, 8vb, octave below. This is used usually only when the hand is to play a large number of notes at the extreme ends of the keyboard and it would be messy and confusing to try and draw loads of lines to facilitate this.

Reading music is like another language, it's not easy to learn and it is easy to confuse, just take your time on it and the more you read the easier it gets.

[movilogo]

Looking at "Grahpic presentation" section in this Wikipedia page,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(musical_note)

Why the key symbol varies between treble clef and bass clef?


What is the straight forward way to tell someone that you play specific key without confusion?

For example, how do I tell someone that you play 24th key from left on a 88 key piano?


Is it not good enough to say that you press "C4" which is always the same key on a piano?

[adodd81802]

I think you are either confusing or over-complicating things here

You can certainly use the phrase C4, there's nothing wrong with it. I think anything other than "middle C" will tend to have that associate with it, eg E3 or G4.

What you have to understand is there needed to be some sort of system to read music that combines efficiency, practicality and readability and over time that's how the staves were designed along with the Treble and Base Clefs (and many other clefs for other musicians).

In terms of reading music, the problem with having a stave with c4, a3, b2 etc written is it becomes too much to read and while may be clear when learning a piece, a lot of pianists and other musicians rely on sight reading and need a design that allows them to identify the notes as shapes and spaces rather than note by note.

Notice how when reading this you don't read letter by letter, you scan the words (mostly the start and end) and you identify what i'm saying, you can also predict the next word i'm likely to write as you get a feel for the sentence or "phrase".

Same concept in music. I think it's much easier to understand why other methods don't work, rather than working out all the reasons that the current method does. It's an all round method that isn't perfect in any particular area but is suitable for all.

[movilogo]

I think you are either confusing or over-complicating things here

Possibly 

So what is the easiest way to identify a key on piano? Is it the combination of clef symbol and key using staff notation?

Like this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(musical_note)#/media/File:Middle_C.png

I have pasted these type of symbols on my keyboard. I wonder why pianos don't come with this already (just imagine computer keyboards coming without anything written on them  )

[adodd81802]

LOL!

OK. I like your out-of-the-box thinking.

Here's the thing. The symbols don't represent that particular note (as such) the reason why middle C has a line through it, is because rather than draw lots and lots of lines and confuse the staff it draws little lines to work from.

I have attached a terrible hand drawn stave.

The top one is what you would usually see. the bottom one is i've add the full line and put the note in the same place. As you can see it would sit on the line and so has a line going through it.

now you could draw all the lines to cover all the notes on the piano but you'd have WAY too many lines and it wouldn't be very clear, so instead we draw the lines through, above, or below to allow you to work out what notes they are.

Now the reason why I wouldn't work off symbols or pasting symbols on your key is 1, there will be many notes on the stave with them lines through it, for example in the treble clef the A below middle C looks the same?

Also the reason why we don't paste symbols, write letters etc etc is it actually slows down the learning process, you are relying then on what you see and not what you "know"

The reason why computer keys come labelled is because every single key is different (apart from shifts and a few others) you have to learn at least 40 separate keys. With a piano, you only need to learn one full octave - C to B and everything in between totaling just 12 keys. Once you've memorized that one set and where middle C is the rest is obvious.

[adodd81802]

I'd definitely recommend having a FULL read on music notation, as it sounds like you may be a little unsure based on your question's, and this is something that takes a little time to get your head round. Maybe find some online exercises or phone/tablet apps that test your notation skills.

As I said it's like learning a language, not something you do fluently and at the start will raise more questions than answering.

I'm guessing you were reading this? https://www.musicnotes.com/blog/2014/04/11/how-to-read-sheet-music/

Just go through the whole thing and see if you have questions afterwards, put what you are learning into practice by playing a few simple melodies like twinkle twinkle, find the music for them and understand how what you see on paper corresponds to what you play.

[keypeg]

Those are good questions.  If you are like me, then you like an overview of big picture.  Here's an attempt at giving one.

The notes themselves, as you noticed, keep going C,E,D,F,G,A,B,C,D,E... over and over, which each C to the left of the piano being higher than the last.  There is a sameness to those C's and they're also different.  We recognize them as being an octave apart and give them the same letter name.   This has to do with the physics of vibrations and sound.  Or briefly - it's how they're arranged.  So we have 7 letter names, and another 5 in-between notes which give us 12 semitones altogether.  But to start with we are only concerned with the white keys which are our letter names.

The keyboard itself has a repeating pattern: 2 black keys, 2 adjacent white keys, then 3 black keys.  Every single D will be between the 2 black keys.  The 3 white keys hold G,A between them over the entire keyboard.  The notes are in alphabetical order left to right, so if you know where D is, you will also find C and E on either side.  But we also need to know which D.

Consider your keyboard as being a vast country that cannot be contained in a single map.  We can locate things on a grid that has 5 lines more easily than a grid that has 80 lines or even 10.  So for pianists we have two major "maps" - the treble clef which contains notes above middle C, and the bass clef which contains notes below middle C.  The range is then extended through ledger line notes, and also the "8va" (octave sign) which means "play these notes an octave above what is written".  To begin with you must want to get used to the smaller range of notes.

Yes, on the piano, there is only one place for each note shown in notation.  This isn't as obvious as it may seem, because on some instruments it is not so.  On violin you can find the same note with the same pitch on different strings.  On some wind instruments it depends on how you shape your mouth.  But on piano there is only one place where you can find C4 (middle C).

The material you are studying will give you the rest, bit by bit.  It is a good idea to realize that either clef has middle C as a reference point.  In the bass clef, middle C is the first ledger line above the staff, and everything below that note, is also below middle C, and to the left of middle C on the piano.  In the treble clef, the first ledger line below the staff designates that same piano note, same pitch, same location.  All the notes above are also above middle C (i.e. the staff is above that middle C).

[keypeg]

I didn't have time to proofread, and I can't edit anymore.  Typos & mistakes in my post:  Par. 2 "The 3 white keys hold G,A " should be "the 3 BLACK keys hold G, A between them".

In par. 3 when I write that the treble clef contains the notes above middle C - that is, the notes on the staff, since middle C is on the first ledger line below that staff.  I was hoping that would be obvious when you actually look at the grand staff.

One excellent resource is Teoria: https://www.teoria.com/en/tutorials/

[movilogo]

Last night I had a read on notation theory again now it is better

Yes, on the piano, there is only one place for each note shown in notation.  This isn't as obvious as it may seem, because on some instruments it is not so.

Indeed this was not so obvious for me!

I only realized this after reading this post and having a look at the stickers I pasted on my keyboard which also contains staff notation.

I can also understand now why bass clefs start C from a different position compared to treble clef.

Next question, why it starts from C and not A (which would have been more natural as beginning of alphabet)?

[adodd81802]

Assuming you mean the stave starts from C?

I think visually as mentioned before as C Major scale is the simplest scale (no sharps / flats / black keys!), when learning music it makes sense to work off that before introducing other notes/symbols/concepts.

Also worth noting that scales weren't invented after the piano. They have been going a LONG time and evolved and developed into what we know them to be today.

As mentioned there's a free book called "mastering scales and arpeggios"

Here's the link https://imslp.org/wiki/Mastering_the_Scales_and_Arpeggios_(Cooke,_James_Francis)

it covers everything you could possibly want to know on scales, keys, how they developed etc. Nobody woke up one day and said "I'm going to make an 8 note scale and call it C Major and ensure it has no black keys!"

[keypeg]

As mentioned there's a free book called "mastering scales and arpeggios"

Here's the link https://imslp.org/wiki/Mastering_the_Scales_and_Arpeggios_(Cooke,_James_Francis)

Just don't go near the instructions on how to play physically.  It almost ruined my hand when I was relearning on my own, and really set back my progress on working on scales with my teacher.  First we have to undo the habits from following those instructions.

[keypeg]

I can also understand now why bass clefs start C from a different position compared to treble clef.

Next question, why it starts from C and not A (which would have been more natural as beginning of alphabet)?

I think you are mixing up some terminology and with it possibly some concepts, which is natural since everything is new.

The clefs themselves merely are a place for mapping the notes.  They don't "start" or "end" anywhere.

The major scale that we tend to learn first is the C major scale, and I think that is what you are asking about.  It goes C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C - It is the only major scale that uses only the white keys on the piano.  As Adodd says, the reason is historical.  Before music as we know it now there were modes, and as music evolved, we ended up with that major scale going from C to C.  There is a "natural minor" scale that goes A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A - and here it does go from A to A.  These scales are all mentioned in the book by Cooke mentioned by Adodd1802.

Don't go too much via C-orientation in understanding the clefs.  It gets confusing if you try to remember "C is one line lower on the bass clef".  Instead, see where the outer lines are: on the bass clef the bottom and top lines are G and A; on the treble clef they are E and F.  The middle lines are D and B respectively.  You also have "markers" - The bass clef symbol has starts with a fat dot on the F line telling you this is where to find F, and there are two dots on either side of that line.  The curled part of the treble clef curls around the G line telling you this is where to find G.

[adodd81802]

Just don't go near the instructions on how to play physically.  It almost ruined my hand when I was relearning on my own, and really set back my progress on working on scales with my teacher.  First we have to undo the habits from following those instructions.

Thanks for pointing out.

Agreed, sorry if I was not clear, the indication was from the knowledge to be gained from learning the theory that this book has to offer, not the practical.

[pianoplayer002]

Just don't go near the instructions on how to play physically.  It almost ruined my hand when I was relearning on my own, and really set back my progress on working on scales with my teacher.  First we have to undo the habits from following those instructions.

I see little fault with thsoe instructions. Of course, you should have a teacher when learning piano technique, it is very hard to self learn through written instructions on how to do any physical activity. But if you follow these instructions I don't see how you could ruin your hands:

"The wrist should at all times be free, that is, absolutely unconstrained from any kind of muscular tension. "

"These exercises should be played with as little muscular constraint as possible. ABOVE ALL THINGS AVOID STRAIN, ESPECIALLY IN THE CASE OF YOUNG AND UNDEVELOPED HANDS. "

[adodd81802]

Hi Pianoplayer,

I definitely agree with what you are saying, but I think in this instance, the OP has not suggested they are pursuing a teacher and appear to have limited knowledge on the piano and so to give them the idea that they should follow the practical suggestions in this book by themselves is not a good idea.

I remember reading through the Hanon virtuoso 60 exercises advising to lift fingers up high, a statement that can be very open to interpretation for a new pianist, or one without the proper guidance.

[movilogo]

What happens when notes go above say C6?

Taking a reference from here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_pitch_notation#/media/File:Pitch_notation.png

the staff notation will look very awkward for such cases.

[adodd81802]

Hi Movilogo, this is the 8VA / 8VB I mentioned previously

https://d4u3lqifjlxra.cloudfront.net/uploads/example/file/11/8va.jpg

8VA means to play an octave above and 8VB octave below. (it's taken from italian so the direct meanings are slightly different)

What this essentially means then is when indicated while it looks like C6 you're actually playing C7

The same for the base clef, it looks like C2 but you're playing C1 for example, and that can be done with any octaves depending on the piece.

[keypeg]

Thanks for pointing out.

Agreed, sorry if I was not clear, the indication was from the knowledge to be gained from learning the theory that this book has to offer, not the practical.

It does have a very condensed and truncated summary.  I read it after having done all three levels of RCM rudimentary theory when I first got a piano again.  (I did RCM theory during my violin lesson time.  I had played piano self-taught 3 decades previously, and this time wanted to do it right.  Hence I was after the "playing scales" part.)  I had the impression back then that theory was way too condensed.  It was a good review if you had already studied it.  For actually understanding theory, I especially like the Teoria website.  It is thorough and also interactive.

The problem with the physical part is that it seems to herald back to the days when in many quarters playing was of the kind where a student was supposed to be able to keep a pencil balanced on their wrist.  He teaches these large exaggerated movements of the thumb.  Even though I was cautious about the "stretching" exercises, I ended up straining my hand and in fact, started to experience numbness.  Secondly, because I practised religiously for 10 months, I ended up with very entrenched habits with very limited physical motion and locked joints.  When my teacher saw what was being taught, he was horrified.

[keypeg]

"The wrist should at all times be free, that is, absolutely unconstrained from any kind of muscular tension. "

"These exercises should be played with as little muscular constraint as possible. ABOVE ALL THINGS AVOID STRAIN, ESPECIALLY IN THE CASE OF YOUNG AND UNDEVELOPED HANDS. "

And how does an untaught pianist ensure having a "free" wrist?  I was extremely careful, and I still got injured.  The writer says nothing about anything except the fingers in terms of technique.

[pianoplayer002]

And how does an untaught pianist ensure having a "free" wrist?  I was extremely careful, and I still got injured.  The writer says nothing about anything except the fingers in terms of technique.

It is because if the condition "the wrist is absolutely free" is met, and you are sitting with proper posture, chances are quite high that you are doing everything else right, and only need to concern yourself with the training of the coordination of the fingers, and the shifting of the hand over the thumb. It is impossible to have a free wrist while other joints are being locked. You test for a free wrist by playing something, perhaps one note and holding it, or a scale, and grabbing your wrist with your other hand and try to shake/move it around, with a large range of motion. If you encounter resistance in any direction, you are not free.

The book does not seem to be meant for an untaught pianist, but for teachers and conservatoiries. This is a point a lot of people who criticize the old piano technique literature seem to miss - it's usually intended as a teacher's aid, and not for self teaching at home without guidance. Cortot's "Rational Principles of Pianoforte Technique" can be extremely dangerous, because he just assumed the people who would pick up the book were teachers who knew how to do the exercises correctly and safely. But if you do it safely, it is quite useful.

[keypeg]

The book does not seem to be meant for an untaught pianist, but for teachers and conservatories.

That is exactly why I warned against anyone self-taught using it, especially as a beginner.  I've been studying with a teacher for several years now.  This happened quite a few years back.

[movilogo]

If the combination of (clef symbol + staff notation) uniquely identifies a key on piano, why do we need key signatures?

E.g., ### says A major. Now even if the #s removed, still everyone will know which key to play - isn't it?

Or it may be irrelevant to piano but useful for other instruments like guitar?

[adodd81802]

Hi Movi,

Sorry if I am misunderstanding here, The staff on it's own does not indicate the black notes? you need # and b to indicate that you should be hitting a black key instead so in the A major scales your sharp keys would be F# C# G#

Now there is (again) a long historical reason behind the scales and keys and how they came about, but thinking logically here there are 2 points.

firstly a key signature - A major in this example indicates that every F/C/G you play in that piece will be sharp as intended with the composition of the piece, unless there are 'accidentals'.

In result this avoids the need for the composer to indicate every time one of those 3 notes are played to be sharp by putting # infront of them.

This - is then easier to read, as you don't need to scan for sharps and flats, you know the key, you know what they should be by default, and so then you can spend more time reading the other notes, dynamics, and other accidentals.

It also gives you less to remember, it's easier to remember that all F,C,G's are sharp rather than play through the whole piece and have to remember every time you come across them 3 notes, was it a sharp? was it neutral?

Secondly, it takes up less space on the stave to just indicate at the start rather than writing out the sharps every time giving more space to clearly write the notes, again easier to read.

Definitely ask questions like this, it's good to ask questions, but do it with the intention of supporting the musical theory rather than questioning against it. There's no trickery here! it works, and while as a beginner it can be difficult to understand why it works, you have to just trust that it does and see the results at the end.

[movilogo]

Sorry if I am misunderstanding here, The staff on it's own does not indicate the black notes? you need # and b to indicate that you should be hitting a black key instead so in the A major scales your sharp keys would be F# C# G#

I understand that. My question was about the key signature which is only placed at the beginning of notes (just besides clef symbol).
Like this
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/A-major_f-sharp-minor.svg/150px-A-major_f-sharp-minor.svg.png

In result this avoids the need for the composer to indicate every time one of those 3 notes are played to be sharp by putting # infront of them.

I think you answered my question in above statement! Now I shall look in some sheet music examples. I was not aware of this!

Definitely ask questions like this, it's good to ask questions, but do it with the intention of supporting the musical theory rather than questioning against it. There's no trickery here! it works, and while as a beginner it can be difficult to understand why it works, you have to just trust that it does and see the results at the end.

I am not challenging the staff notation! I feel that it is too overwhelming for a beginner and I am just trying to figure out which are absolute minimum symbols and which ones I can skip for now and come back later.

[keypeg]

If the combination of (clef symbol + staff notation) uniquely identifies a key on piano, why do we need key signatures?

E.g., ### says A major. Now even if the #s removed, still everyone will know which key to play - isn't it?

Or it may be irrelevant to piano but useful for other instruments like guitar?

You seem to be missing some information.

First, let's look at what a major scale is.  C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C.  Go to your piano.  You will see that between the C key and the D key, there is a black key, which we'll call C#.  Play C to C# and listen to the distance of sound between the two.  Now play C to D and listen to that distance - it is greater - there is a larger difference.  Each touching piano key is a "half step" or semitone away from the one it is touching.  Every second one is a "whole step" or "whole tone" away.  On the piano you'll see the E,F and B,C are two white keys that touch each other - they are a half step apart.  Play and listen for that sound.  Let's call half steps (H) and whole steps (W).  Marking the distance between the notes of C major we get:
C(W)D(W)E(H)F(W)G(W)A(W)B(H)C.
In other words, the intervals in a major scale, going from tonic to tonic, are WWHWWWH.  That is the only way that we will end up hearing a major scale.

Now let's look at your A major.  Go to the piano and play only white keys:
A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A
It will not sound like a major scale and your whole steps and half steps will be in the wrong place.  To make it sound like a major scale you have to slide three of the notes over to the next piano key to the right, which is a half step higher.
A(W)B(W)C#(H)D(W)E(W)F#(W)G#(H)A

The three notes that are a half step higher are C#, F#, G#.  The # (sharp) means "make this a half step higher".  On the piano, "higher" means "to the right".

When you read music, the notes on the staff will tell you which piano key to press - you have that part already.  You see C on the first ledger line below the treble clef, and you press middle C on the piano.  But in A major you would get the wrong note.  You need the note which is a half step higher: C#.  The accidentals: # (sharp), b (flat), x (double sharp), bb (double flat), and the natural sign (undo whatever accidental exists), fine tune the notes in this way.

Ok, so the key of a major has C#, F#, G#.  It would be tedious to keep writing a # in front of each C, F, and G.  The key signature is a shortcut.  It says "Every time you see these three notes, sharp them".  Thus you end up with something that sounds like it's in A major.  We memorize that 3#'s = A major or C# minor, but the actual thing is what I have described.

[keypeg]

Or it may be irrelevant to piano but useful for other instruments like guitar?

Notation is a set of visual symbols representing the pitches that are to be produced.  All musical instruments produce pitches, except perhaps most percussion instruments.  Regardless of which instrument I'm playing, if the music calls for C# right above middle C, then I have to produce that C#, and I have to know what pitch to produce.  If the music is in A major (which has that C# in it), then what I play has to sound like it's in A major.

The only difference between the instruments is how that musician physically produces that pitch, and the range of notes that that instrument can play.  A piccolo can't reach the low notes of a cello.

[adodd81802]

I  agree it can be a lot to take in, and all this theory can be better taught in stages with a Piano teacher, as usually they will give pieces of music and practicals to help solidify what you've learnt and do it in stages.

The very basics you need to learn to start you off(very basics) in my opinion are the following.
What the treble clef represents
What the bass clef represents
How the notes are placed on the stave and the difference between the treble and bass notations (the actual reading music part)
What a key signature means (not learn every key signature)
What a time signature means (not learn every time signature)
how #/b and symbols affect the notes (you can have E# and Fb!)
what a rest symbol indicates (not learn every rest symbol)
what the "sticks" on the notes mean (not learn every note value)

Now when I say what they mean, I simply mean if you looked at the stave you could say oh, this is notation on the treble clef, it's got a 4/4 time signature, it's key signature dictates 4 sharps. and I start on this note.

This is essentially musical grammar where you learn the rules that make up how you "speak" via the piano.
The next stage is then picking suitable pieces of music that challenge you both to play and to understand but in reasonable stages.

Look at something like this https://imslp.org/wiki/Practical_Exercises_for_Beginners,_Op.599_(Czerny,_Carl)

Combine it with the basic steps I mentioned above, so you can put what you're learning to practice by reading music that's within your skill range.

Now you will come across things you don't recognize, like a time signature of 6/8, when you do, look up 6/8 get an idea of what it means and you've learnt something new in a digestable chunk, rather than naming me all the time signatures known to man and explaining what duple, compound and simple means.