Late starting pianists can become virtuosos?

[rovis77]

Can a person that starts playing the piano in his early twenties develop through extreme hard work and discipline the technique of a concert pianist who started very early?.

[visitor]

there is a definate sweet spot time window that cannot be recovered if missed during early childhood, mainly due to the developing brain and neuroplasticity present in pre adolescent and during adolescent development.

however, it is still possible to learn and progress a great deal. the 'virtuoso' label is a loaded word i don't care for really.   my definition subscribes to the held one by many judges in different fields that virtuosity is simply uncommon originality and creativity coupled with flawless execution of fundamentals, that is the real top tier players are 'expert beginners'.

so you can advance quite a bit, however the time and effort required later on is much greater than early on due to a missed opportunity during development.

natural talent, genetics and epigenetics will play a big role too. ie 'natural ability' and aptitude is your wild card variable.  as they they say you can pull the trigger as much as you want but you're limited by the bullets pre loaded in gun by nature.

[bronnestam]

I think the expression "hard work and discipline" sounds a bit ... boring. And I don't think you can get very far if you are bored ... well, seriously, I suppose you can achieve anything, but you have to put your mind AND your heart into it. "Discipline" makes me associate to someone who has to push him/herself a lot, and you should not push. You should just be very diligent, very humble and very open-minded. And extremely obsessed and enthusiastic about the whole thing.

So, to answer your question: yes.

[mjames]

yes but it's highly unlikely.

[chopinlover01]

Define virtuoso please?
If your goal is just to become very good at playing the piano, you can definitely achieve that; you just need a good teacher.
Concert Pianist like Lang Lang? Not so much..

[timothy42b]

Concert Pianist like Lang Lang? Not so much..

I re-read the original post.

He didn't ask if a late starter could become a concert pianist.  I agree that is unlikely. 

He just asked if a late starter could develop the technique of a concert pianist.  Yeah, probably, or at least so close you couldn't tell much difference. 

[adodd81802]

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[visitor]

I am a living room concert pianist. 

[deandeblock]

What do you guys think about James Rhodes? Started late too...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Rhodes_(pianist)

[adodd81802]

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[timothy42b]

age 7 is late?

[adodd81802]

.

[hardy_practice]

there is a definate sweet spot time window that cannot be recovered if missed during early childhood, mainly due to the developing brain and neuroplasticity present in pre adolescent and during adolescent development.

Without a doubt.  Up to age 7 there's a different ball game going on entirely.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

(re James Rhodes)

I don't know i'd agree he started late. He still had initial training from quite a young age and why didn't excel immediately, clearly had the right technique to become good. We are assuming however that the OP has had no training pre 20..

I'd also consider this an exceptional case, in which while is a performing pianist, he, from the Wiki entry, appears to be massively mentally unstable, and not exceptional at the piano by any means.  I can't see that he's won any major competitions, or performed at any particularly spectacular events, but is, never the less a good example of somebody that can become a concert pianist, without necessarily being a great pianist.

Yes, that's more a matter of his career starting late. As to why he didn't excel immediately (or at least give concerts), probably because he became a drug addict, living rough, etc as a consequence of abuse.

I think if someone's starting absolutely from scratch in their 20s, it's asking an awful lot to get anywhere beyond being a good amateur pianist.

[adodd81802]

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[visitor]

I agree with this. Although what I find difficult is knowing what it is that is missing from the brain for late starters!

i mentioned this in my reply. the neural connections are still forming. 
ie, excertp from a disc on 'language' we can substitute 'music' for a language, and a lot of the motor connections are also implied

"...When used, brain cells connect

Brain cells are not much good if they are not connected with each other. After birth, brain cells are making connections all the time. These connections are called synapses (SIN app sez). Connections are made when a child has experiences. Experiences make children think. When a child thinks, brain cells are used. The connections (synapses) get stronger the more the child uses them. These connections become a basis for how the child thinks. 

...
The stories of two chidren can explain the idea of the brain making connections. Isaac is 2 ˝ years old. He now lives in the United States and speaks English. But he was born in Mongolia. For the first six months of his life he only heard Mongolian. Since he was adopted by a family in the United States, he has heard only English. The brain cells that are used for understanding and speaking English are used whenever he hears, speaks, or thinks in English. Like anyone else, when Isaac was first learning English, he had to hear basic words over and over to help build the connections in his brain. Now that he has some very strong “English-speaking” and “English-understanding” connections, he doesn’t struggle to speak English. He can do it without effort, because the connections are strong.

Giulia, on the other hand, lives in Italy. She is 16 years old and was born in Italy. She has an Italian father and Korean mother. When she was young, she did not hear or speak English. Her brain could have developed “English-speaking” connections, but it did not, because she was not in an English-speaking environment. Instead, her brain made “Italian-speaking” connections. The same process of connections is used for everything a child learns. That is why experiences are so important...."

[mjames]

Ernest Chausson was a late starter (no music training prior to the age of 24) and he managed to become a great composer. Then again he was exceptionally talented and we're talking about performing skills not composing skills...

[hardy_practice]

I agree with this. Although what I find difficult is knowing what it is that is missing from the brain for late starters!

Myelination (at any significant rate).

[goldentone]

You can only find out what caliber pianist is in you by practicing.  I don't pay attention to the neural connections gate being closed at a point in youth, because I have eluded it.  I think the key is how much desire is in you.  If your desire is intense enough, I believe you can achieve it.

[deandeblock]

age 7 is late?

Yes indeed, it seems he started at age 7 but not very intensive i presume.

I have another article with some more info about his background. Seems he stopped playing the piano for more than ten years when he was 18...

https://new.spectator.co.uk/2010/11/the-accidental-pianist/



I think that with a lot of hard work and dedication people starting later in life can enjoy a satisfying lifestyle in music whether or not they are virtuous.

[hardy_practice]

I think that with a lot of hard work and dedication people starting later in life can enjoy a satisfying lifestyle in music whether or not they are virtuous.

Yep.  Me, I'm far from virtuous (in fact I've done some pretty low down things in my time) but I could scrape a concert together whenever...

[lostinidlewonder]

Of course it is possible but what is very rare is to find a human with a bit of talent AND the discipline/time to do such things. I often find people with talent but no interest/capability to devote much time to music, then I meet those who have all the time but no talent. It is a cruel pattern! There are those with the talent and time but no discipline, that is the worst of the lot. Once the work load hits them they give up or become lazy, they put off the work, they rely on their talent to do minimal work to make improvement. Discipline is a very tough beast to instill into others.

[michael_c]

Ernest Chausson was a late starter (no music training prior to the age of 24)

I don't think he started musical training after having published his first compositions at the age of 23. According to the short biography in the catalogue of Editions Salabert, Chausson started studying music at the age of 15.

[mjames]

I don't think he started musical training after having published his first compositions at the age of 23. According to the short biography in the catalogue of Editions Salabert, Chausson started studying music at the age of 15.

Oh deary! I was always under the impression that he started when he was 24. My bad, 24 was when he started attending classes at the paris conservatory. 15 is still quite of a late start.

[hardy_practice]

Oh deary! I was always under the impression that he started when he was 24. My bad, 24 was when he started attending classes at the paris conservatory. 15 is still quite of a late start.

You can't tell me someone from an 'extremely affluent bourgeois family' didn't have music lessons as a child.

[mjames]

You can't tell me someone from an 'extremely affluent bourgeois family' didn't have music lessons as a child.

I can and I did but you can also choose to ignore it.

[hardy_practice]

I can and I did but you can also choose to ignore it.

But the world can't!

[yadeehoo]

Yes indeed, it seems he started at age 7 but not very intensive i presume.

I have another article with some more info about his background. Seems he stopped playing the piano for more than ten years when he was 18...

https://new.spectator.co.uk/2010/11/the-accidental-pianist/



I think that with a lot of hard work and dedication people starting later in life can enjoy a satisfying lifestyle in music whether or not they are virtuous.

Good stuff, thx for sharing this

[bernadette60614]

Today I'm going to Kissin's concert in Chicago.  Kissin started at the age of 4 (I believe) and had a private teacher whom I believe lived with the family or, in essence, did   I think there is an advantage of having that kind of start and that kind of training (coupled with natural aptitude and interest) which would not be matched by someone starting in adulthood. Similarly, in a very obscure documentary I saw on Glenn Gould, I learned that Gould's mother decided before he was born that he would become a concert pianist  I suspect his childhood was considerably different than mine!

Frankly, I think becoming a performer at that level means making piano virtually all of your life.

A book from which I've derived a great deal is "The Talent Code" in which the author researched pockets of extraordinary talent...the impoverish towns which produce generations of star baseball players, e.g.  He found that the key to developing star players was focusing on skills and practicing skills.  It was only after the skills were mastered that the highest level of performance could be achieved. For me, at least, focusing on mastery is a better goal that focusing on virtuosity.