Getting rid of unwanted accents

[araconan]

So I'm polishing the Revolutionary Etude right now, and I'm noticing that I'm involuntary accenting every note the second finger plays during the opening passage (left hand). Ironically, these are the same notes that are marked to be accented on the score, but I can't seem to play it without accenting. Hence I'm wondering if there's something wrong with my wrist movements, etc.

Interestingly, if I play that same part as piano or pianissimo, the accent goes away. So it seems to be an issue with playing forte. And if I consciously tell myself not to accent, the accents get worse 

[hardy_practice]

Your ears put up with that?  They don't stop it?

[araconan]

Your ears put up with that?  They don't stop it?

I wish I could voluntary stop it just by hearing the accents It's weird, because it's usually the thumb that accents (because of the wrist coming down), so I watch out for that. But with the index finger this time, I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

[hardy_practice]

I wish I could voluntary stop it just by hearing the accents It's weird, because it's usually the thumb that accents (because of the wrist coming down), so I watch out for that. But with the index finger this time, I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

No.  You won't if you listen to the accents!  Listen for the lack of accents (it's called a phrase).

[xdjuicebox]

Chopin probably wrote those accents for a reason, since it's a natural thing. I think a slight pulse is necessary for that run though. Anyway...

If you're overdoing it though, pay attention to the physical way that you are reaching the key. Are you coming from the thumb at a really fast speed? From a lot of height? With a big pronation of the wrist? Are you playing with only your finger and not your wrist? Are you shifting your weight forward? Leaning forward? Dropping your elbow/wrist at that moment? Any of those things will cause an accent, and if you overdo any of those (or many of those at the same time), it will cause an unwanted accent.

[twelfthroot2]

Maybe it's the way your hands initially learned it?  You could try accenting different notes (say the middle finger for example) to try and break it out of your hand.

[hardy_practice]

You folks don't get it.  If you wanted to tell your mate something from across a field would you think "Ah, I'd better increase the pressure on my diaphragm so the blast of air will travel further? not to mention taking a deep breath before?"  In a room with a baby asleep you going to think "Ah, I'd better lower the pressure on my diaphragm so something hardly sustained comes out"?

[visitor]

First make sure you go w whatever your instructor says.

I might try this if doesnt conflict w current instructions from youe teacher. Have you tried deliberately accending each note ie all notes?  I would try to get the sound uniform.  Then i would work a drill of accenting only every other note, then i would reverse it do every other note again but accent the onez you did not accent prior.  By now you should have uniformity in your accenting.  The just go back and remove the alternating accents. This reset and layer drill has worked a few times for me in the past and is worth a shot as long as you actually create uniformity in your accenta and choice of where to do do it.

[hardy_practice]

Yeh!  Occasionally make a mistake? Deliberately make loads!  Er....

[visitor]

Yeh!  Occasionally make a mistake? Deliberately make loads!  Er....

lol its counterintuitive but anectdotally in my past i have found it is easier yo wipe the  slate clean and it ia easier for me to address touch if i address control and purposely addibg and removing accents works

[hardy_practice]

So you want to throw a rock to break a window do you think "Ah, I'd better tense my triceps by just so much, bringing about a trajectory of x, in direction y."? 

[michael_c]

So you want to throw a rock to break a window do you think "Ah, I'd better tense my triceps by just so much, bringing about a trajectory of x, in direction y."? 

If I just want to break a window I'd throw a rock and hope for the best. But let's say I need to learn how to quickly break hundreds of windows, each at a different height and a different distance away. Then I'd start working out the best technique for doing this, finding out how to effectively control the speed and angle of the throw in order to hit each window squarely in the middle and also working out how to make economical use of my muscles so that I don't get overtired and can still exercise the same control after I've thrown fifty bricks.

Having a clear concept of how you want the music to sound and listening intently to see how well the sound matches your conception is essential to good piano playing, but it will not necessarily lead you to the best technical solution.

To come back to the OP, my advice would be to look very carefully at how your arms are moving. Is your left elbow moving up and down as you play that passage? What is the feeling in your shoulder? Can you actually feel those accents somewhere in your arm?

[hardy_practice]

Having a clear concept of how you want the music to sound and listening intently to see how well the sound matches your conception is essential to good piano playing, but it will not necessarily lead you to the best technical solution.

Nicely put.  It will if you don't carry tension over from elsewhere though I would say 'is matching' your conception.  We can have no idea of the 'doing' so that exempts anything being inbetween doing and conception-of doing.

[dcstudio]

don't think just do... I am with Hardy 100% on this one

it does sound like you are giving up control somewhere when you are playing forte...which is actually a good thing, sort of.  It pushes your hands to adapt but at the same time you are relying on muscle memory and "hoping for the best"


this is exactly where the "great divide" in schools of thought comes in...

the most accepted method has always been to play it slowly and move the metronome a click or two at a time...   I am of the opinion that this is not the most efficient way...

I will play it once or twice in slow mode, but then I will keep pushing the metronome further ahead and scramble hard to keep up.   then I slow it down to a more manageable speed... relatively speaking it becomes instantly easier...  this is usually enough to fool my brain into believing I can play it.  That makes a big difference.

I have shared this with you at the risk of serious backlash because it is the heathen way...lol..

in support of this heretical claim, and at the risk of being accused of self-promotion... I offer a video of me... playing very fast.  that's how I get there.  I am wearing a t-shirt that says Babylon in this vid... like I said... heathen.

[outin]

If I just want to break a window I'd throw a rock and hope for the best. But let's say I need to learn how to quickly break hundreds of windows, each at a different height and a different distance away. Then I'd start working out the best technique for doing this, finding out how to effectively control the speed and angle of the throw in order to hit each window squarely in the middle and also working out how to make economical use of my muscles so that I don't get overtired and can still exercise the same control after I've thrown fifty bricks.

OT but after all the golf/other sports/driving a car related analogies to piano playing people have used on these forums, this is the one that really appeals to me! I'd love to learn how to break 100s of windows fast and efficiently!