What does REAL piano practice feel like?

[maxkarlstedt]

Hello there again!

I'm sorry if I seem like I am nagging about this issue about piano practice and so on. This will be my last post about it, I promise.

I searched for "practice piano feel" and found this old thread: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=44514.0 about "practice makes perfect" and I realize that you want to practice as perfect as you can.

My metaphor to understand it is that you can either lift weights you already are able to lift but that won't do any good in practicing to get bigger muscles, or you can lift wieghts you can only lift a few times and that feeling you get when you realize that this is heavy, that is the true practice.

So, my question is then: what does piano practice FEEL like which means that when you get that feeling you also know that you will benefit from it in the long run?

- Is the feeling that you cannot play it fast enough without missing or hitting wrong keys?

- Is the feeling that it somewhat feels uncomfortable in your brain when you try to play it as if you lack fine motor skills? (e.g. when you play with both hands)

- Is the feeling that you first play the repetition very slowly and then you can speed up and then suddenly play it very fast and accurately?

When I practice hand independence and finger independence I must go very slowly and I feel like nothing is really happening (as if I am lifting those light weights to compare again), but maybe it just takes time and the brain need rest and time to strengthen those neurons for those new fine motor skills I just forced upon myself?

I hope you understand my question using my metaphor! Thanks for replies in advance! / Max.

[chopinlover01]

It's all of the above, really.
Not getting something and then slowly unraveling it is key.

[bronnestam]

I feel I'm practising for real when I feel that I am fully present in every note and every movement. In reality this means that I am working with the tiniest of details. Perhaps just half a bar or even less! Because this is when I'm really, really learning and improving.
This also means that I am not really thinking "oh, I am PRACTICING" until afterwards, because I am too absorbed in my task to make any reflections.
 

[michael_c]

I feel I'm practising for real when I feel that I am fully present in every note and every movement.

+1

I don't think that weight lifting is a good metaphor for something like piano practice. In order to develop more muscle power, you need to keep pushing your muscles to work harder and harder against more and more resistance: if you feel the strain, up to a certain point, you know you're doing it right. In order to become a better pianist, you need to develop more ease in your movements: if you feel the strain, you're doing it wrong.

[mjames]

In order to become a better pianist, you need to develop more ease in your movements: if you feel the strain, you're doing it wrong.

+1

[oldlearner]

The analogy is also very poor because weight training is almost entirely a physical activity whereas piano playing is largely mental. With weight training, there comes a stage at which one ceases to gain muscle mass/strength regardless of what one does. Eventually it becomes a matter of reducing the rate at which strength/muscle is lost. Precisely when this stage is reached depends on the amount of accumulated training, age, and individual genetics.

This happens with piano skills as well, but the stage at which proficiency stops increasing comes after a much larger amount of accumulated training because of differences in how muscles and brain respond to training. It also starts happening at a later age because muscle atrophy generally begins earlier than brain atrophy. But similar to weights, the deterioration can be ameliorated by appropriate training. Learning and practising a musical instrument, due to the mental demands and the physical coordination required, is one of the best ways of developing cognitive “strength” and eventually reducing its rate of decline. Things like crossword puzzles and various other “mind strengthening” games/puzzles are far less effective or totally ineffective, other than perhaps for those with specific mental disorders.

The OP is also wrong about neurons (nerve cells) being strengthened. Muscles grow and strengthen through weight training due to increases in size of muscle cells; nerve cells do not increase in size. Eventually, all the cells in a given muscle reach the maximum size of their genetic potential. With age, the number of muscle cells diminishes, resulting in a decrease in mass and strength. The number of cells (nerve and muscle) can’t be increased through any form of training; this is determined by the individual’s genetics and is set at birth.

Although an individual neuron can’t be strengthened, the synapses or electrical and chemical connections among the cells (neural networks) can be. Learning develops new pathways and practicing strengthens pathways. That’s why it’s so important to practice without mistakes — the more a mistake is repeated, the more the neural pathway is strengthened and the harder it becomes to weaken (correct). An example is in some of the OP’s other posts where he’s used the incorrect word “accord” several times (i.e. not a typo) instead of chord. OK, we realize that English isn’t your native language which is probably why people haven’t been “impolite” to correct you. Although you would have read the correct word many times and would have never read accord in English in place of chord, you continue to repeat the mistake. This (in addition to other individual reasons) is because that particular neural pathway is now so strong (i.e. habitual) that you’ve failed to recognize the error. Now that it’s been pointed out, you can probably correct it by stopping its use (weakening the pathway) and developing a new neural pathway to use the correct word. But along the way you can expect some slips while those processes are occurring.

Also, it is ridiculous to equate what is actually happening with what you “feel” is happening. Lifting lighter weights (as in warmups or light days) may feel like “nothing is really happening”, but neural pathways are being maintained/strengthened which helps in lifting heavier weights. In any serious practice/training regimen, one cannot train “hard” all the time; “light” training has a very useful role - whether or not you feel you’re making progress.

A feeling during any kind of practice can not and will not let you “know that you will benefit from it in the long run”. On the other hand, a feeling of physical discomfort during piano practice may well mean that you are doing something you shouldn’t be doing, so doing it is likely to not be beneficial. Therefore, a proviso might be that if something feels physically comfortable, it's more likely to be beneficial than something that feels uncomfortable. With my small hands, playing repeated octave isn't all that comfortable and probably never will be. Does that mean it would be more beneficial in the long run to not play them at all because they don't feel comfortable? Would it be beneficial to exclude all that repertoire because of some discomfort? Who knows?

Although I’m very new to piano playing, I’ve been doing weight training, running (including marathons), cycling for decades and at times other demanding physical (e.g. ice hockey, skiing) and mental pursuits (e.g. post grad psychology including statistics, C++ computer programming). Anyone with a reasonable knowledge of any sort of training or practice is well aware of the importance of at least some lighter training/practice, which has benefits different to those of hard practice and complete rest. “REAL piano practice”, which I assume means effective practice, is measured by results, not by physical or emotional feelings during practice. So the question is somewhat nonsensical.

[brogers70]

REAL piano practice does not feel like REAL aerobics or strength training. I feel like practice is going well when I feel no strain, when I find a way of playing a passage that feels relaxed and easy, and when I like the sound I am producing. I think that aiming to "feel the burn" could actually be counter productive.

[indianajo]

In the "learning the piece or technique" phase of "real practice", you are doing it correctly if you are making no errors.  In my case this happens as slowly as necessary to make no errors.  A sign of incorrect practice, is that you repeat the same mistake twice. this is vile, doing that you are training your brain to play the piece incorrectly.  In "real practice", you repeat the correct motion enough times that it becomes effortless, as easy as walking or breathing. then you turn up the speed dial.   Remember in learning a  physical skill, the cementing of memory happens at night when you are asleep. Your brain rehearses the movements asleep, they can see this on a MRI machine.   See the results of the skiing game experiment on PBS Nova.  So when you have practiced a piece effectively, the correct movements are so learned that you can feel them in your "hands" even when you are not at the piano.  If the piece is playing on the radio, after proper practice you should feel the correct movements in your "hands", really the part of your brain that controls the hands.
When the piece is error free, then you practice to communicate emotion with the piece.  You don't even think of the movements of the piece at this stage.  You play the piece and try to make yourself feel something.  You make analogies with other pieces and try to make it sound like a bit of this or that to communicate that analogy to your listener.  Or you ape a particular performer's performance, and try to make the piece sound like he was playing.  Whatever your goal is, in the late stage of correct practice you move towards that emotional or artistic goal, without worrying about the
mechanics of the piece.
And as far as the gym and weight analogy, those clowns that coach weight training at the local gym are muscle bound idiots that will probably die of heart disease before I me- and I'm 65 now.  Straining a couple of reps with the heaviest weight  you can lift, then resting, builds muscle mass fast, but the three minute rest that comes afterwards negates any benefit for your cardiovascular system.  At the gym I lift the weight that allows me to keep my pulse up to (200-(my age))beats per minute,  for thirty minutes: Dr. Cooper's Aerobics formula. As a result  I don't look like the Hulk, more like a long distance runner.  My knee condition won't allow running anymore, but due to calesthentics gym work and bicycling my heart and lungs are as good as if I did still run distances. I've melted quite a bit of flab off my body since stopping paid work and spending more time maintaining myself.   

[oldlearner]

Indianajo, you are correct except for your comments about weight training. The following may have little relevance to piano practice but it might benefit you, the silent and apparently unappreciative OP, and others.

Straining a couple of reps with the heaviest weight  you can lift, then resting, builds muscle mass fast, but the three minute rest that comes afterwards negates any benefit for your cardiovascular system.

That’s not entirely true, depending on the exercise and how it’s done. An isolation exercise with a strong focus on one muscle group (e.g. preacher curl — biceps), or small muscles such as forearm or neck exercises elevate your heart rate not at all or very slightly, thus have no cardiovascular benefit. Compound exercises involving several large muscle groups (e.g. squat, deadlift, clean & jerk) performed with heavy weight for several reps or lighter weight for more reps certainly get your heart pumping faster and do have cardiovascular benefit. Performing compound exercises as you do — keeping pulse rate continually elevated elevated at a more or less constant level — has the same type of cardiovascular benefits as, say, a “tempo” or “long slow distance (LSD)” run. These have been researched for decades and are well known.

However, resting for 3 minutes between intensely performed compound exercises definitely does not negate their cardio benefits. Performed that way, this is a form of High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT). In recent years a considerable amount of research has been performed on HITT (usually using 30-second intervals, with rest periods ranging from 30 secs. to several minutes). The results of HIIT are comparable to or better than LSD-type training, but with much less time expenditure and over shorter time spans. Serious runners have known about the very substantial cardiovascular benefits of interval and fartlek training for decades.

Regarding the effect of rest periods on muscles other than the heart, it is generally believed among body builders and weight lifters that recovery periods of ~30 secs. are preferable for building muscle mass and rests of 3 mins. or more are preferable for developing strength. The evidence is anecdotal and I’m not aware of any research confirming these beliefs. Regarding repetitions, very low reps of 1-3 are good for building strength but not as good for developing mass. Reps of 5 or 6 are a good compromise for building both, especially for compound exercises. A few more reps is appropriate for isolation exercises, but more than ~10 reps is largely a waste of time and energy. This is particularly so for older trainees like you and I.

You might be aware that keeping your pulse rate as elevated as you do reduces the amount of energy you are able to devote to lifting the weights and thus reduces the benefit to your muscles. Allowing greater recovery between sets will provide both HIIT and muscular benefits.

My strength workouts have a focus on compound exercises at 6 reps, followed by a few isolation exercises at 8 reps. I superset everything making sure to have an absolute minimum of 3 mins. rest between exercises for the same muscle group. Almost all my runs and cycles combine LSD and intervals.

[twelfthroot2]

maxkarlstedt, real practice feels like building confidence.  It's one thing to measure yourself by "correct notes" and it's another to measure yourself by confidence.  Confidence will lead to correct notes, and thinking of it in this way makes more sense.  Besides, it's also what it "feels" like.  Another way to put it: your hand must "feel" it's next position while you're still in the previous position.  Try not to guess at the next position, let it come natural through repetitions.  I think this is one of the biggest mistakes in practice.  People play too many notes in succession without using repetitions on small sections first.  As a simple exercise for you to feel what it's like, play a chromatic scale in minor 3rds over one octave everyday for 30 mins (e.g. C4 and Eb4 simultaneously, then C#4 and E4 simultaneously, then D4 and F4 simultaneously, etc. until you're an octave higher.  The fingering would be 1+3, 2+4, 2+4, etc).  If you do this for a week you should notice a huge difference compared to how you felt the first day.  It's important not to move to the next notes until you're confident where they are.  To gain confidence, play each set of notes multiple times (as many as it takes to feel like you're not rushing to the next notes, this gives your brain time to catch up).

[briansaddleback]

maxkarlstedt, real practice feels like building confidence.  It's one thing to measure yourself by "correct notes" and it's another to measure yourself by confidence.  Confidence will lead to correct notes, and thinking of it in this way makes more sense.  Besides, it's also what it "feels" like.  Another way to put it: your hand must "feel" it's next position while you're still in the previous position.  Try not to guess at the next position, let it come natural through repetitions.  I think this is one of the biggest mistakes in practice.  People play too many notes in succession without using repetitions on small sections first.  As a simple exercise for you to feel what it's like, play a chromatic scale in minor 3rds over one octave everyday for 30 mins (e.g. C4 and Eb4 simultaneously, then C#4 and E4 simultaneously, then D4 and F4 simultaneously, etc. until you're an octave higher.  The fingering would be 1+3, 2+4, 2+4, etc).  If you do this for a week you should notice a huge difference compared to how you felt the first day.  It's important not to move to the next notes until you're confident where they are.  To gain confidence, play each set of notes multiple times (as many as it takes to feel like you're not rushing to the next notes, this gives your brain time to catch up).

Good info, in a way, I may have been doing this, but just did not identify it as such. I  almost did not see this bit of good insight unfortunately I had to weed/peruse through some unhelpful self-promoting posts immediately preceding this one before I found this

[bernadette60614]

As someone who weight trains, I think the similarity for me is that when I"m "really" practicing I go into the practice session with intent.  I'm written out a plan for the practice, I go directly to what I need to practice, I evaluate my progress and then a great practice session ends with defining goals for the next session.

Similarly, when I go to the gym, have a written routine and get right to that routine, that's a good weight training session.

Now for years, I sat down at the piano, set a timer, and when the timer went off I was done.  Similarly, for years, when I went to the gym for an hour each day, spent the hour chatting when my friends, read the newspaper while pedaling on a recumbent bike, lifted weights for a random number of repetitions..and then said I was done.

In these instances, I didn't make much progress, but I could say that I practiced/worked out.  And, none too surprisingly, I didn't improve.

I think "real" practice just like real weight training is a state of premeditated, conscious "flow".