Pieces to build skills in Polyrhythms

[symphonic]

Hi Everyone,

I've recently been interested in playing Chopin's Nocturne in C minor Op.48 No.1, but the complex 4 against 3 polyrhythms in the 'doppio' movement have dissuaded me from learning it due to my technical ability.

So I was wondering if there were any pieces that help build skill in polyrhythm, so I can eventually get to the skill level needed for this Nocturne.

Thanks in Advance,

Symphonic

[visitor]

You just have to play them enough to start "feeling" them correctly.  I would try pieces in various sytles and also get good wuth 2 vs 3 or 3 vs 2 before fussing with 3 vs 4 or 4 vs 3 and etc etc
This one is nice and bot too bad at inttermediat levels

[mjames]

Lol the little snippets of poly-rhythms in the Op. 48 nocturne is the LEAST of your worries. If you're attempting a work like that, stuff like that should already be instinctive....You should work on a LOT more Chopin before you tackle the c minor nocturne. It's no doubt imo the most challenging nocturnes.

If you want to be able to handle Chopin-styled poly-rhythms, then just play more Chopin. "The best way to get better at Chopin is to play more Chopin."

Op. 9 no. 1 has several 11vs6/22vs12 sections (just finished working on it, really helps out)

Speaking of Op. 48, the second one in f sharp minor is BEAUTIFUL and the entire piece is basically filled with tripletsvseight notes.

Op. 27 no. 2 (currently working on it) is basically riddle with them. Though you'll probably have a hard time with it if you're not comfortable with it yet. Basically like I said for the other nocturne, this work is riddled with difficulties that triplets against evenly divided notes should be instinctive. However it wouldn't hurt to work on it, technically it's not difficult at all. Musically? Quite a challenge!

Op. 55 no. 2, op.  62 no.1, and no. 2 are really good for establishing the right hand's complete independence from the left.

There's also Chopin's etude nouevelles. The focal point of these studies are basically polyrhythms.

Another work that I think really helps out with poly-rhythms is Debussy's first arabesque. If you want to get the piece right, you'd have to get the poly-rhythms right.


Also, try and look at Scriabin's works. Considering your level just look at his preludes (most of them are accessible)...

His preludes are fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiillled with it. Play around 12 Scriabin preludes and before you know it you'll be used to it. It's awesome because a lot of them are uber short and uber beautiful. Have fun.


  

[zpianist]

Chopin's own Nouvelle Etudes, which are studies in polyrhythms?

[dcstudio]

Debussy's first arabesque. If you want to get the piece right, you'd have to get the poly-rhythms right.

  

that is the standard first 3 against 2 piece that students learn... and yes it does help quite a bit

[symphonic]

Thanks everyone for your responses,

I think I will tackle Scriabin's Preludes before this piece, and some of Chopin's other nocturnes, it was a bit of a stretch me trying this piece!

Thanks,

Symphonic

[louispodesta]

Hi Everyone,

I've recently been interested in playing Chopin's Nocturne in C minor Op.48 No.1, but the complex 4 against 3 polyrhythms in the 'doppio' movement have dissuaded me from learning it due to my technical ability.

So I was wondering if there were any pieces that help build skill in polyrhythm, so I can eventually get to the skill level needed for this Nocturne.

Thanks in Advance,

Symphonic

Polyrhythms are two against three, three against four, four against five, and, in the case of the Prokofiev 1st concerto, two against five.  Your inability to play these sections is perfectly normal.

Accordingly, your recommended solution is twofold.

As a possible solution, first, you find a teacher certified in Dalcroze Eurhythmics, who will teach you the essence of whole body rhythm.  And, secondly, you find a teacher who has played the major repertoire that includes polyrhythms.

These two teachers will share with you their life experiences which will solve your problem.

Good luck to you, and please do not hesitate to contact me by PM if you have any additional questions.

[brogers70]

Brahms 51 exercises start with a bunch of exercises in polyrhythms.

[louispodesta]

Brahms 51 exercises start with a bunch of exercises in polyrhythms.

With all due respect, I offer the following response:  First, I play a ton of Brahms repertoire.

Secondly, like a lot of other well-intentioned pianists, I almost ruined my hand by attempting to learn and master these exercises.  Accordingly, Taubman/Golandsky goes out of their way to recommend against any one using this book for the purpose of technique improvement.

Referencing Earl Wild, and my late teacher Robert Weaver, the best way to master "ANY" rhythmic aspect of "ANY" music is to experience the basic whole body approach.  And, then specifically have an experienced performer/teacher (over the age of 60) to work/teach you through these "steps to learning" a particular piece.

After all, the rhythmic character of a piece is nothing more than a compositional technique to convey an aural idea of what the work should sound like when played.

[zpianist]

Polyrhythms are two against three, three against four, four against five, and, in the case of the Prokofiev 1st concerto, two against five.  Your inability to play these sections is perfectly normal.

Accordingly, your recommended solution is twofold.

As a possible solution, first, you find a teacher certified in Dalcroze Eurhythmics, who will teach you the essence of whole body rhythm.  And, secondly, you find a teacher who has played the major repertoire that includes polyrhythms.

These two teachers will share with you their life experiences which will solve your problem.

Good luck to you, and please do not hesitate to contact me by PM if you have any additional questions.
[/quote
With all due respect, this is highly impractical and almost unnecessary for most people.

[brogers70]

With all due respect, I offer the following response:  First, I play a ton of Brahms repertoire.

Secondly, like a lot of other well-intentioned pianists, I almost ruined my hand by attempting to learn and master these exercises.  Accordingly, Taubman/Golandsky goes out of their way to recommend against any one using this book for the purpose of technique improvement.

With all due respect, although there may be a number of the exercises in that Brahms set that might cause damage if played with tension, those first polyrhythm exercises at the beginning of the set are pretty benign. The only thing you're likely to stress by practicing them is your brain, in trying to keep the rhythms clear.

[dcstudio]

.  And, then specifically have an experienced performer/teacher (over the age of 60) to work/teach you through these "steps to learning" a particular piece.

I agree with you on some things Louis but....over 60???  with all due respect I plan to RETIRE at 60--no more "steps to learning" for me thank you very much...    piano teachers who are over 60 tend to be seriously... moody...  just go to any "piano teacher club" meeting and see for yourself... they are all the same.  ....booooorrrrrrriiiiiinnnnng 

[brianvds]

An interesting discussion. I have a similar problem to the OP: my hands simply refuse to work independently, and I am not remotely at the level to use the Debussy Arabesque as learning material. I am talking here about very simple pieces, but even in some of those you find polyrhythms, and I cannot for the life of me work out how to deal with them.

Come to think of it, I have the same problem with pieces that require left hand jumps, e.g. broken chords where there's a note in the bass and then the hand jumps two octaves (or whatever) up to play the rest of the chord - no matter how much slow practice I put in, I can never get to the point where I can play the piece at full speed.

A good teacher may well be able to help, but alas, I quite simply cannot afford lessons.