How do you practice Chopin Ballade Op23 No1

[jessipch]

I have been self learning chopin ballade op23 no1 in g minor for about a month. I have been learning pieces at ATCL level for 2 years and a half. Recently, I have worked on Rachmanonff Prelude G Minor Op 23 No 5 (But struggle a lot at the middle counterpoint parts). I know the presto con fuoco would be hard. But, I feel like I am stuck on B.138 onwards for the ballade. I cannot play both hand together at a normal tempo when arriving at B.138. My efficiency kind of falls a lot. For the beginning part until B.123, I can feel I was making progress. But now I am completely stuck on a few bars everyday.

I know there are a lot of techniques to work on for this piece. How do you guys specifically work on those harder parts (Like those from B.138)? Like how you organise the section into simpler elements and practice them? Or do you have any tips in practising?
Besides, I have encountered the passage with left hand doing crazy arpeggio like in B.166-190, or the rach g minor prelude, every time I will be stuck here also. How can I practise these efficiently? Thank you!

btw I have wrongly posted a poll previously -_- How can I delete it

[kristinazx]

I have been self learning chopin ballade op23 no1 in g minor for about a month. I have been learning pieces at ATCL level for 2 years and a half. Recently, I have worked on Rachmanonff Prelude G Minor Op 23 No 5 (But struggle a lot at the middle counterpoint parts). I know the presto con fuoco would be hard. But, I feel like I am stuck on B.138 onwards for the ballade. I cannot play both hand together at a normal tempo when arriving at B.138. My efficiency kind of falls a lot. For the beginning part until B.123, I can feel I was making progress. But now I am completely stuck on a few bars everyday.

I know there are a lot of techniques to work on for this piece. How do you guys specifically work on those harder parts (Like those from B.138)? Like how you organise the section into simpler elements and practice them? Or do you have any tips in practising?
Besides, I have encountered the passage with left hand doing crazy arpeggio like in B.166-190, or the rach g minor prelude, every time I will be stuck here also. How can I practise these efficiently? Thank you!

btw I have wrongly posted a poll previously -_- How can I delete it

I play that piece. I have a professor and working with him. He taught me different techniques for the piece. By myself would be harder. First learn it in slow tempo and count constantly not to lose rhythm. Then repeat so many times until you can do it in fast. Practice staccato, different rhythmes. Must be gentle and light but expressive too. Fingers must work very well.  Record yourself every once in a while. Hard piece and needs time.  I will need about 4, 5 months to learn it

[jimroof]

I played this from the Paderewski edition and the fingering in that edition worked very well for my hand.  I would definitely practice hands separate if it is not working hands together.  Keep the right hand as efficient and 'quiet' as possible while the left hand has to leap around a bit. 

The final coda was to me the most difficult section, technically.  What helped me was giving up on the temptation to get it up to speed too quickly.  I practiced all of the difficult passages in the Ballade at half tempo while PRETENDING that it was the correct tempo.  What do I mean?  I mean playing it slowly as expressively and beautifully as possible.  Take that time to hear and bring out inner voices that are moving around the larger harmonic structure and enjoy hearing them at half tempo.  This is particularly true for the left hand in the B138 section.

I was an impetuous player and really had to reign in my desire to get everything up to speed.  I also had very good velocity when in my 20's, but it always served me well to exercise the discipline to slow things down and to be CONTENT with slowing things down.  Being aware of the music at slow speeds and being non-mechanical and ultra-expressive at the same time makes that kind of practice more enjoyable, more tolerable and, when you DO get it up to your final performance tempo, the nuances will have been programmed into your fingers. 

[briansaddleback]

  Being aware of the music at slow speeds and being non-mechanical and ultra-expressive at the same time makes that kind of practice more enjoyable, more tolerable and, when you DO get it up to your final performance tempo, the nuances will have been programmed into your fingers. 

YES! You are quickly becoming one of my favorite posters here. Who are you ? !

[jimroof]

A little background...

I had a natural gift for piano from an early age but I never practiced.  I preferred playing outside (it was the 1960's and kids did that kind of thing back then).  I took lessons from a competent teacher for about 5 years then quit due to disinterest.  When I was about 14 I wanted to play progressive rock (Emerson Lake and Palmer, Yes) and found some old lady that somebody recommended to start lessons up again.  That was a waste of time.  I don't even know what I was thinking.  I had natural ability but really squandered it, though I did use my ear to take some of the ELP and Yes to the 'woodshed' as it were.

Next chapter... graduated from High School in 1975.  What to do?  Since I loved music and had a natural thing for piano, I auditioned at Georgia State University.  My audition was a total wreck.  I think I had my foot on the wrong pedal throughout my audition somehow because the keyboard on the 9' Steinway shifted every time I pedaled.  I was nervous and really out of my element with this kind of repertoire.  I was accepted 'on probation'.  My teacher was one of the youngest faculty members and she either got me due to a lack of seniority, or she thought I might make a decent project.  Long story short now, 4 years later I was winning piano competitions.  Since a music degree takes 5 years, that gave me on last year - the year that I got mononucleosis - canceled my trip to the Aspen Music Festival where I was to study with John Perry - and then eventually decided I was not cut out to be a professional pianist.  I could have been, but that last year ragged me out in a very big way.  I remember cutting classes, skipping lessons, and performing my Senior recital on the last day possible so I could have a little extra time to prepare for it.  I recall sitting in a practice room in front of the Schumann Am Concerto and after an hour of practice feeling as if not one note of it stuck in my head.  I was sick then and did not realize it, but it discouraged me terribly.

What I will never forget is my young piano teacher (I say young, she seemed old at the time, but she was probably in her mid 30's).  Her name was Betty Anne Diaz.  A wonderfully sensitive musician.  A gifted person who understood music and whose sole desire was to turn her students into musicians, not piano players.  Not a week has passed in the last 34 years since I graduated that I do not think of what she taught me.  

So, instead of going to Indiana to study with Pressler, I took odd jobs until I ended up becoming an architectural photographer.  I had a fairly major health crisis this past summer and it seems that out of that crisis (with death being a potential outcome...) I have decided to spend more time at the piano.  I am working on a few things now - Debussy's L'isle Joyeuse and, heaven knows why - the Brahms Second Piano Concerto.  Maybe I chose the Brahms because after that the Debussy is a cakewalk... pun intended.

BTW, I found an old recording of my Chopin Gm Ballade performance from 1979 or 1980.  I stuck it over in the Audition Room.  It's full of youthful energy.  I would play it significantly differently today.  Vladimir Ashkenazy was my hero back in those days...

That's me. Thanks for asking.

[briansaddleback]

Nice. Glad to know you had a one teacher who stuck with you in mind and formed your way of taking paths in your life due to her wanting to teach out of passion and care and not out of any other motive. So hard to find this these days.  I am fortunate to have one now for me as well. A Russian teacher who used to be a concert pianist. She has made me technically today more than anyone else I encountered.
Love Debussy. Would be really interested in hearing your Lisle that is one of my favorite pieces by him. Good story, thanks.

[jessipch]

I played this from the Paderewski edition and the fingering in that edition worked very well for my hand.  I would definitely practice hands separate if it is not working hands together.  Keep the right hand as efficient and 'quiet' as possible while the left hand has to leap around a bit. 

The final coda was to me the most difficult section, technically.  What helped me was giving up on the temptation to get it up to speed too quickly.  I practiced all of the difficult passages in the Ballade at half tempo while PRETENDING that it was the correct tempo.  What do I mean?  I mean playing it slowly as expressively and beautifully as possible.  Take that time to hear and bring out inner voices that are moving around the larger harmonic structure and enjoy hearing them at half tempo.  This is particularly true for the left hand in the B138 section.

I was an impetuous player and really had to reign in my desire to get everything up to speed.  I also had very good velocity when in my 20's, but it always served me well to exercise the discipline to slow things down and to be CONTENT with slowing things down.  Being aware of the music at slow speeds and being non-mechanical and ultra-expressive at the same time makes that kind of practice more enjoyable, more tolerable and, when you DO get it up to your final performance tempo, the nuances will have been programmed into your fingers. 

Thanks for all of your reply. I am also a impetuous person, haha. I always want to learn more piece in a shorter period of time especially I realized there will be fewer and fewer time for me to spend with the piano due to my study (I am not pursuing a music degree). Several weeks has gone after I had post this and I am now at the 2nd variant of the theme (Troubled by the complex rhythm). Thanks for the nice advice of slowing things down. I will force myself to do that.

[rakhmaninoff]

Not sure if this coincides with your goal of learning it quickly but since this piece exceeds my technique and I am a hobbyist I have spent a lot of time listening to all the great pianists play it listening to the approaches and trying to emulate them/build off their ideas. It's amazing how many different ways this piece can be played and is very intimidating because it has so many great voices and moments that can be emphasized. Unfortunately no approach can get them all but that's why I prefer a more detached and spontaneous approach rather than a deliberate and fully planned out performance.I have also learned/forgotten/relearned a few times with good success on improving the final product.

That's how I've practiced it and admittedly it still sucks after quite a few years but I've had some amazing moments with this masterpiece.

I suggest listening to Hofmann, Gilels, Zimmerman, Michelangeli, Moiseiwitch, among many others if you haven't already. Really inspirational and also very different interpretations.