Movable do vs fixed do

[movilogo]

Can someone please explain why people use movable do system?

I think it might be less relevant for piano as fingering will be nearly the same irrespective of which key starts as tonic.

But in a string instrument, say guitar/mandolin etc., I think a movable do can cause havoc with fret fingering.

Say in a typical GDAE tuned mandolin, C4 is always G-string 5th fret. But in a movable do, it can start anywhere. So how would one re-train fingers for correct fretting instantly?

[nystul]

People who use movable do already have a fixed point of reference.  It's the note names A through G.  You don't learn "this piano key is do" but rather "this piano key is C".  There is no confusion because you would never think to associate "do" to a specific piano key or fret position unless you were trained that way to begin with.

[dcstudio]

both systems are meant to teach relative pitch but moveable do teaches function--fixed do teaches a single point of reference...they both have advantages.  To be honest I have little experience with fixed do beyond learning that it was the alternative to what they were cramming down my throat at University...


I prefer moveable do because, of course, it was how I was taught.   Moveable do teaches you to recognize chord functions... i.e.  Do-Mi-Sol-Ti--in fixed do will always be C-E-G-B.   In moveable do it is always a major 7th chord.  If I can recognize on a single pass of listening to something, the chord functions and progressions---I can play it.   Not only can I play it I can transpose it anywhere.  

Really I think it's just a matter of how you were taught and what you are comfortable with... and btw, I am also a 25 year veteran guitarist and I am married to a Berklee Jazz freak guitar player... and I am really wondering what you mean by moveable do causing havoc on fret fingerings...  please explain.  Moveable do does not cause C4 to stop being C4 on your Mandolin... pitches are absolute... only the systems change...  a C chord will still be a C chord... it does not require that you change fingerings..  If you are reading the music it will look the same... I am really confused here... because neither fixed do nor moveable do will have ANY affect on how you finger the chord or melody.

so dude... what are you talking about?

[dcstudio]

me playing guitar... to support my claim    

[movilogo]

I meant this

say you are playing movable do in C scale

then Do = C, Re = D, Mi = E and so on.

But now if you play it on D scale

then Do = D, Re = E, Mi = F and so on

So now you have to remember which fret position "Do" is. In above case, you have to remember 2 fret locations (may more if you want to play it every other scale).

[dcstudio]

I remember my scales by the note names... not the solfege syllables because that's how we are taught in moveable do...  you use the syllables to determine the pitches within the scale then fill in the note names from the determined key signature.   Ok I think I get what you are saying now... you are taught your scales by their relation to C in solfege Syllables...ahhhh....  applying that is every bit as confusing to me as my system is to you...

yes we have to remember both the names of the pitches and their solfege syllables...

but still.. a C major scale will be played the same way on the instrument regardless of which system you use.. I don't understand how you would have to change fingerings

to me Do always equals the first scale degree and sol is always the 5th --  If I am listening to a simple melody say... Twinkle Twinkle little star...  I hear Do Do Sol Sol La La Sol...etc...it doesn't matter what key it's being played in--   I can now play this in any key because I also can spell all twelve major scales and apply their solfege syllables to determine what to play--that's moveable do... fixed do does not give you this information.

like I said moveable do is how I was taught and it works for me...on the guitar, too..  

[timothy42b]

like I said moveable do is how I was taught and it works for me...on the guitar, too..  

I use movable do to sightsing.  Our choir has little enough time to prepare and few good readers, we depend heavily on a couple of us who can sightsing confidently with new music.

I could use fixed do or I could just use the note names.  But that wouldn't tell me where the next pitch is.  If I'm in the key of C, I expect a half step between E and F.  That's between mi and fa.  If I'm in the key of D, I still expect a half step between mi and fa with movable do.  But if I'm in fixed do, I now have to remember there's a half step between fa and sol instead. 

Of course there are arguments for both systems.  IMO the main argument for movable do is it gives you information about the function of the note within a tonality (does not apply if this is atonal music).  The main argument for fixed do is "I was taught that way." 

[dcstudio]

yes there is not a lot of support for fixed do...  moveable do is pretty universal here in the states.

[anamnesis]

yes there is not a lot of support for fixed do...  moveable do is pretty universal here in the states.

Well that's only if you ignore some of the top end conservatories in the States, as well as a good portion internationally.  Admittedly, there is a bit of elite snobbery attached to it.

Both systems need to be learned, and even within movable-do, la-based minor (or rather "movable ti") should be learned (or do-based if you learned la-based) because they all stress different things that can't be learned as easily with the other systems. 

At the highest levels, fixed-do (when you use the chromatic variation) will function as an "expanded" movable-do where you have developed multiple tonal vocabularies that give you maximum flexibility to handle all keys and tonalities; however, this will take along time to develop. 

Fixed-do solfege in particular isn't just about ear training. It's a concentration tool as well as a mnemonic to handle pitch class information, which helps memorization and sight-reading. 

Even veteran sight-readers, will notice a dramatic difference in there ability to sight-read if they've only used letter names before and they start using fixed-do. There's a reason it's used to learn all seven-clefs. 
 
For a long while I opposed the use of fixed-do, but after having used it, I believe it is a far superior pedagogical tool than letter names for both reading/memorization and connecting it to audiating in real time.

Movable-do, "movable ti" in particular, is better to first learn audiation; however, once that framework is established you can slowly overtime transfer the tonal functions to different vocabularies used in fixed-do. This makes it an excellent tool for really mastering different key signatures. 

Summary:

La-based minor (movable "ti") to learn to audiate different tonalities/"modes" and as a way to learn how the tonic isn't always "do", which will make the transition to fixed do easier. 

Do-based minor to learn to audiate harmonic function and parallel key relationships. Modes here are treated as chromatic alterations rather than distinctly tonalities unto themselves, which is why the previous is critical to learn. 

Fixed-do for reading, memorization, and audiation after you learn and apply the previous two. 

[dcstudio]

Both systems need to be learned,. 

and that is the bottom line...because that is the best way.  

[brianvds]

I have never been able to work out what the point of any form of solfege is? I can't work out how it will help me to audiate any better. To know whether a note is do or sol or whatever, you have to know what degree of the scale it is, and once you have worked that out you should be able to sing it anyway. Why bother with the solfege syllables?

I wonder what it is that I am missing here...