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Topic: Liszt Liebestraume : Cadenzas don't work....  (Read 4114 times)

Offline abel2

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Liszt Liebestraume : Cadenzas don't work....
on: December 18, 2015, 07:05:11 PM
Does anyone else feel like the cadenzas to Liszt's Liebestraume 3 ruin the atmosphere? It sets up this beautiful mood and then spoils it with brash chromaticism.
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Offline abel2

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Re: Liszt Liebestraume : Cadenzas don't work....
Reply #1 on: December 18, 2015, 08:05:45 PM
I've actually sketched out two of my own....

Offline mjames

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Re: Liszt Liebestraume : Cadenzas don't work....
Reply #2 on: December 18, 2015, 09:32:29 PM
It's how I feel about Liszt in general. He always has to shove in some random semi-virtousic crap no matter how out of place and forced it might feel. A lot of his music doesn't flow naturally.

Offline rubinsteinmad

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Re: Liszt Liebestraume : Cadenzas don't work....
Reply #3 on: December 18, 2015, 09:40:54 PM
It's how I feel about Liszt in general. He always has to shove in some random semi-virtousic crap no matter how out of place and forced it might feel. A lot of his music doesn't flow naturally.

Well, maybe it isn't random; I think they may have musical meaning. Imho, his "semi-virtuosic" additions are not crap.  ;D
I think I have to listen to some more Liszt; I have only listened to around 50% of his published output.
Also, I wonder, how far does your technique reach on the Liszt Ladder? (Just so you know, mine only reaches 1/50 >:()


Offline rubinsteinmad

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Re: Liszt Liebestraume : Cadenzas don't work....
Reply #4 on: December 18, 2015, 09:48:25 PM
@abel2

If you try to discover the purpose behind Liszt's cadenzas, perhaps you shall find more sense out of them.

Offline abel2

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Re: Liszt Liebestraume : Cadenzas don't work....
Reply #5 on: December 18, 2015, 10:55:56 PM
Well, maybe it isn't random; I think they may have musical meaning. Imho, his "semi-virtuosic" additions are not crap.  ;D
I think I have to listen to some more Liszt; I have only listened to around 50% of his published output.
Also, I wonder, how far does your technique reach on the Liszt Ladder? (Just so you know, mine only reaches 1/50 >:()
Y


Well, I'm not as good as you surely so less then 1/50

Offline abel2

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Re: Liszt Liebestraume : Cadenzas don't work....
Reply #6 on: December 18, 2015, 10:57:54 PM
@abel2

If you try to discover the purpose behind Liszt's cadenzas, perhaps you shall find more sense out of them.
Do you mean programmatic meaning, or meaning for including the cadenza themselves?

Offline handz

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Re: Liszt Liebestraume : Cadenzas don't work....
Reply #7 on: December 19, 2015, 02:10:20 AM
I know what you mean, I feel this is why Liszt is sometiems hated and why I personaly prefer Chopin. Liszt often put unnecessary virtuosic stuff into his pieces,  well, because he could play them, but they not add anything to the music, usually some crhomatic hard to play stuff which really do not have to be there. Liszt was a great pianist but also a bit of a narcissistic personality when it cames to piano skills, so he really wanted to show that virtuosic stuff.
In progress: <br />Scriabin: Preludes op 11 nr 6, 10, 17, 1<br />Rachmaninov: Prelude C# minor<br />Fibich: Poeme<br />Mussorgsky: Pictures at Exhibition Promenade, gnome

Offline abel2

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Re: Liszt Liebestraume : Cadenzas don't work....
Reply #8 on: December 22, 2015, 01:47:44 PM
I know what you mean, I feel this is why Liszt is sometiems hated and why I personaly prefer Chopin. Liszt often put unnecessary virtuosic stuff into his pieces,  well, because he could play them, but they not add anything to the music, usually some crhomatic hard to play stuff which really do not have to be there. Liszt was a great pianist but also a bit of a narcissistic personality when it cames to piano skills, so he really wanted to show that virtuosic stuff.
I don't mind virtuosic stuff, but that ugly chromaticism just ruins the piece.

Offline mjames

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Re: Liszt Liebestraume : Cadenzas don't work....
Reply #9 on: December 22, 2015, 03:29:23 PM
I don't mind virtuosic stuff, but that ugly chromaticism just ruins the piece.

Yeah, I'm fine with Scriabin's sonatas and Chopin's ballades etc etc. The problem with Liszt, he can come out with beautiful passages but usually he puts in some weird pointless run to make it all flashy and it just feels so out of place. I like a lot of Liszt (including his orchestral stuff) but I dislike a lot of his stuff for the reasons I just explained. Late Liszt was no doubt Liszt at his best, the period of time he decided to abandon all the frivolous virtouso charades.

Offline chopinlover01

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Re: Liszt Liebestraume : Cadenzas don't work....
Reply #10 on: December 23, 2015, 10:48:19 PM
IMO the second cadenza kind of fits, but not exactly. The first one really is unnecessary, though it provides a modulation to B major, but that wouldn't have been hard to do with actual music.
One of the few places I find Liszt's cadenzas actually pleasant is in Un Sospiro:

Offline stoudemirestat

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Re: Liszt Liebestraume : Cadenzas don't work....
Reply #11 on: December 24, 2015, 12:10:40 AM
I love them, and find they enhance the piece. I generally like Liszt's cadenzas and, unlike some in this thread, feel like they generally make his pieces flow MORE naturally than those of his contemporaries. Ditto in this piece.

As to the post above: why is a cadenza like this not 'actual music'? I think he beautifully prepares for it and gives us, in this cadenza, a poetic thought that elaborates wonderfully on the general mood of the piece.

To each their own, however.


Offline chopinlover01

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Re: Liszt Liebestraume : Cadenzas don't work....
Reply #12 on: December 24, 2015, 01:14:24 AM
I agree to an extent with the last cadenza; however the first one is a diminished six chord- dominant seventh run up the keyboard, not of any particular interest.

Offline stoudemirestat

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Re: Liszt Liebestraume : Cadenzas don't work....
Reply #13 on: December 24, 2015, 01:29:18 AM
I agree to an extent with the last cadenza; however the first one is a diminished six chord- dominant seventh run up the keyboard, not of any particular interest.

To me it's not the method; it's the result. Not everything needs to be of 'theoretical interest.' I think it fits in very well and is very effective in context. But, again, to each their own. I'm not saying you're wrong, or that I'm right.

Offline rubinsteinmad

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Re: Liszt Liebestraume : Cadenzas don't work....
Reply #14 on: December 24, 2015, 01:30:43 AM
I like Mozart cadenzas  :D
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