Overcoming 'Teflon' head

[jimroof]

Maybe it is my getting older, but I remember having this problem at times when in my 20's... 'Teflon' head.  When nothing seems to stick.  When you play the same 8 bars over and over and you close the score and just draw a blank.

Am I alone with this condition?  Has my hippocampus gotten clogged up with too many things to sort it out?

I know that age is not my friend in this, but maybe there is some method that will align my neural pathways in a way that will help make things stick, rather than sliding off of the surface of my brain as if it were made of Teflon...

[hardy_practice]

A good knowledge of harmony applied to what you're playing.

[dcstudio]

you are not a beginner... what specifically are you having trouble with? 

[jimroof]

Brahms 2nd concerto.  The last time I felt this same way was another piano concerto, Schumann Am.

There is a ~4 bar passage that occurs right after the opening 2 arpeggiated chords where the left hand and right hand alternate taking the moving chord patterns after hitting octave f's.  It seems crazy that I still go to the wrong chord.  I can play the inner chords with ONE hand easily, but splitting the task between the two hands with the slight nuisance of also having to keep the alternating f octaves is just running some kind of electrical interference in my head.

But, perhaps this is one of the things that makes this concerto such a tough one.  It's just not that 'pianistic'.  Can't wait until I start to hash out the second theme group with all the 16th note hopping around...

[preludetr]

That has definitely happened to me a few times. Last time was in the Waldstein first movement development, the part with all the triplets. I eventually memorized it after a huge deal of repetition. I imagine this would be a big problem in a lot of 20th century works, but I haven't played any myself.

[dcstudio]

perhaps if you post a recording or a video you could demonstrate.   

[jimroof]

It's not a performance thing.  It is a learning block.  It happens in the very early stages of learning a piece. 

I can explain it like this.  Whatever piece you are working on, you play eight bars of it over and over to iron something out.  You come back to it later and it is as if you are reading it for first time.  The earlier practice has yet to reveal any improvement in the muscle memory.

Maybe concertos are the culprit because they are somewhat disjointed musically when working them out.  Ie., one thing does not really flow into the next.  One thing gets learned... then the next thing... then a break, then the next thing.  I don't know.  I just thought someone would have an idea like 'try more caffeine' or 'get more sleep' or 'just keep plugging away at it at what feels like an embarrassingly slow pace'.  The latter is my current plan.

I am 58.  It has been a while since I sat down with the express desire to expand my repertoire.  Maybe it's just cobwebs in the cranium.

[indianajo]

My teacher pointed out fifty seven years ago, playing anything incorrectly more than once lays down just as much memory as playing it correctly would. Her method was to NEVER PLAY SO FAST THAT YOU MAKE MISTAKES.  Certainly NEVER repeat the same mistake twice.  Slow way down.
I've had to take this seriously going back to page 2 of a 28 page piece, after recently concentrating on the end.  I was a bit vague on the feel of some chords, and played it several nights getting worse and worse each time.  I had to go back and take that first movement 1/4 speed and play it many times correctly to stomp out the memories I had built up of the incorrect movements.  
Perhaps 1/8 speed, or one hand alone practice, will put  the correct movements back in your movement memory.  Analysis of chord structure seems to help memory from another view of the problem help the actual hand/arm movement brain areas.  If I just knew the feel of chords better?  Playing pop music off lead sheets seems to be building that capacity to feel chords.  
I might point out, my sense of where my hands and fingers "are" was not nearly as repeatable when I started practicing regularly again age 58, as the feel was when I quit piano lessons age 16.  I've started watching my hands again when they fly apart, which I never used to have to do age 9-16.  Aged muscles do not respond the same way every day: that is why they have a senior pro golf league.  I'm getting accurate again, but visual feedback is much more important now than then.  In those days, the teacher had me look at the audience and smile faintly - even if they weren't there during practice. 
Good fortune in  learning.  

[lostinidlewonder]

In my lessons I focus often on the observations of the pattern in the score and fingering (and there are tons of observable patterns including all of the shapes of scales, chords, progressions, hand position movement etc, coordinations of both hand [such as chord vs melody, part playing, x vs y notes etc] and more) . Mindfully repeating then forgetting about the observations, if the playing starts going shakey simply recall the observations once more. I feel it is a real art/science pin pointing the conscious observation of your music that most aids your memory.

I think also how you drill your repetitions is important, going slowly is not the only way but playing fast with controlled pausing inbetween, changing rhythms (eg short-long and long-short couple note rhythms for long strings of scale notes), simplifying the score (eg playing held chords instead of broken patterns for instance to become more aware of your position), repeating at specific points (no point starting from bar 1 if your problem is many bars after, or playing far past a trouble spot when focusing on improvement [eg if there is hesitation connecting one position to another then one needs only find the first note(s) of the next position to begin with and build from there]). There are tons of ways to drill your playing too many rely on brute force mindless repetitions, it does work but it's takes a lot of effort and excessive repeats.

[wpasman]

I have had this with a few pieces

For me it's usually related with not hearing any logic (notes sound random). Usually this goes together with a failure on my side to harmonically analyse the part. Particularly blocks of chromatic chords are difficult for me.

Notes sounding random does not mean that the music sounds random. It still may sound like the correct amount of dissonance, dynamics may sound logical. There even may be a partial interpretation. It's just that when you are playing it slow, it does not  make much sense harmonically

[michael_c]

You're not alone. I'm 60. There are pieces I memorised effortlessly when I was 15 that I can still easily play from memory today, but learning new repertoire takes much more effort than it used to.

I think one very important thing is to accept that it is normal to have more difficulty memorising when one is older. If I expect to be able to learn music as quickly as I once could, and get mad with myself when things don't work out that way, I'm not helping myself. Now I know that if I learn a new piece, it's going to take a lot of time. Acceptance is a big part of winning the battle.

Each time I am practicing a new piece, I look for different ways to help memorising it. Harmonic memory, melodic memory, "muscle" memory, visual memory, aural memory... I play passages with my eyes shut. I play passages just in my head. I play passages very lightly on the keys without actually making any sound. In passages where, in the "good old days", I would not have bothered to put in any fingering, I now carefully decide on fingering for every note. If something is really resisting me, I may take out a sheet of manuscript paper and write it out.

Simple stuff that can also help:
- Take naps
- Drink enough water
- Do breathing exercises

[dcstudio]

 

I can explain it like this.  Whatever piece you are working on, you play eight bars of it over and over to iron something out.  You come back to it later and it is as if you are reading it for first time.  The earlier practice has yet to reveal any improvement in the muscle memory.

I am 58.  It has been a while since I sat down with the express desire to expand my repertoire.  Maybe it's just cobwebs in the cranium.

I am 51      In my experience it is usually not that we forget how to play... it's that we forget how to learn.  We have pieces we have been playing for decades which are so second nature we couldn't forget them if we tried.   We expect everything we play to be that easy and it is seriously frustrating when it isn't.  It wreaks havoc on our piano player ego.  Almost every adult returning pianist goes through this---well all of my adult students seemed to have this same problem, anyway.    The more new rep you learn the easier it will get... keep that brain busy.

[anamnesis]

I am 51      In my experience it is usually not that we forget how to play... it's that we forget how to learn.  We have pieces we have been playing for decades which are so second nature we couldn't forget them if we tried.   We expect everything we play to be that easy and it is seriously frustrating when it isn't.  It wreaks havoc on our piano player ego.  Almost every adult returning pianist goes through this---well all of my adult students seemed to have this same problem, anyway.    The more new rep you learn the easier it will get... keep that brain busy.

Really?  I thought you were in your mid thirties, early forties from your videos.  

[dcstudio]

Really?  I thought you were in your mid thirties, early forties from your videos.  

oh  God Bless YOU    thanks!

some of my vids are  nearly 10 years old if you are talking about the dcstudio YT account... all the ones with the 100k+ hits are from when I was in my early 40s....

so please watch this one which is me last month after playing a 4 hour Christmas party...then tell me I don't look 51.  lol.   

[anamnesis]

oh  God Bless YOU    thanks!

some of my vids are  nearly 10 years old if you are talking about the dcstudio YT account... all the ones with the 100k+ hits are from when I was in my early 40s....

so please watch this one which is me last month after playing a 4 hour Christmas party...then tell me I don't look 51.  lol.   

Could be the Gershwin, I still think you age very gracefully. 

[rmbarbosa]

May be you may wish to break the 8 bars in clusters of 4 or even 2 bars and try to join them after?
Or use mental playing?