Forcing Yourself to Learn?

[inkspot]

Just an odd question regarding practice... But is it possible for one to "force" themselves to learn something? If so, is this necessarily a good practice to continue?

Just wondering what everyones thoughts an experiences have been on this matter. I feel I can "force" myself to learn, but only to an extent-- when I am trying to force myself to learn I tend to have much poorer focus.

[briansaddleback]

If we are talking about piano or anything you need to build towards accomplishing something it is all forcing oneself to learn. Incidental and natural learning is everything else but there is some of that in piano too.

[dcstudio]

I didn't use the word "force" instead I preferred to say "very determined."    When I was younger I used to set these goals for myself on the piano...  "I will have this page memorized before I get up,"  or, "I will be able to play this whole thing by tonight."  I stuck to them, too.  That challenge offset the drudgery of practicing because I had a clear cut, reachable now, goal. I pushed myself pretty hard--and in doing so I acquired some bad habits that I had to rid myself of later on--but the success I experienced back then allowed me to believe that, with enough practice and determination, I could play anything.  There were times in my life I really questioned that belief...but I never let it go completely.  That is why I am still playing, now

sometimes your mind will battle with you and tell you that you will never be able to do this, give it up, who are you fooling?   I still hear  this in my head before I perform, sometimes...  I just choose not to believe it and soldier on. 

[louispodesta]

Not to disagree with what has been said to date, but to instead add to the discussion, I proffer the following personal experience:

1)  It all depends on how ones brain is wired, mine certainly is not wired the way any of yours are, and you should be very thankful for that.

2)  As an Aspy, I have abnormal short term memory (and attention span), and I have a corresponding long term memory that has astounded people most of my life.  Therefore, when it comes to memorizing pieces at the piano, which I do every single day (Aspy), I take "Baby Steps."

3)  That means:  one works through a particular passage, in intricate detail, and then when their brain says stop, then they do.

4)  The beauty of this for me is that you always maintain the love of the piece you are working on, and after all, that is why you are doing this in the first place.

[kawai_cs]

When I play repertoire I love it does not feel like I am forcing myself to learn at all. On the contrary, it feels like a very exciting journey. However recently I am playing pieces I do not particularly like and I find myself in need to force myself to learn it. It is not easy, not pleasant but necessary.

[xdjuicebox]

A lot of people view this as cheating, but literally, take whatever pieces you're learning, get a ton of good recordings, and listen to each one of them at least once every day. If it's a short piece, listen through it like 5-6 times a day. It won't really feel like learning, but this speeds up the learning process drastically

Then, when you practice, just have fun with it.

[inkspot]

A lot of people view this as cheating, but literally, take whatever pieces you're learning, get a ton of good recordings, and listen to each one of them at least once every day. If it's a short piece, listen through it like 5-6 times a day. It won't really feel like learning, but this speeds up the learning process drastically

Then, when you practice, just have fun with it.

Yes, I do thins very often actually. I actually find that i memorize the piece on an auditory level after listening to it a few times-- this is unfortunately a double-edged sword as having the piece "memorized" can be a bit frustrating when the hands do not know what they are doing yet...

Then again, could this frustration also be derived from a deficiency in sight-reading? If I would sight-read better, by hands would not take as long to catch up to my ears...

[louispodesta]

The last two post are right on point.  My late teacher, Robert Weaver, insisted that all of his serious students purchase as many recordings (by different artists) of the pieces they were learning.  The first thing that does is to show the student how many different interpretations/voices a piece can have.

Then, secondly, I take it to the next level in regards the following:  I always keep CD's and sometime 8 track and even vinyl recordings, of the pieces I am currently working on, within hands reach or walking distance back to my bedroom 8 track and vinyl stereo player.

Just today, I made up my mind that I am going to take it to the final step and memorize the Poulenc Concerto.  So, I first memorized the first two pages.  And, then I reached over to the floor on my left, loaded a CD into my portable player, and then listened to the first four pages.

I find that it makes all the difference in the world in terms of learning "any piece" regardless of what stage a pianist is in learning a particular work.  Hey, I have almost memorized the first movement of the Rach 2nd, and when I need to check myself, I go into my bedroom and play the vinyl recording of "guess who" playing his own piece.

Trust me, it works!

[keypeg]

I always get caught out by the word "learn" because it seems often people mean "memorize".

[keypeg]

double post

[xdjuicebox]

Yes, I do thins very often actually. I actually find that i memorize the piece on an auditory level after listening to it a few times-- this is unfortunately a double-edged sword as having the piece "memorized" can be a bit frustrating when the hands do not know what they are doing yet...

Then again, could this frustration also be derived from a deficiency in sight-reading? If I would sight-read better, by hands would not take as long to catch up to my ears...

Haha believe me, I know the feeling. I'm learning Chopin's 4th ballade right now, and that coda is driving me INSANE

Anyway, this is just another tidbit that has helped me a lot in the past when it comes to learning music
Don't think of things like really small, tiny fragments, but rather larger, macro units, since it's a lot easier for the brain to handle
In my brain, pieces are usually just chord progressions and voicings/whatever scale the run is doing through lol

[stoyo]

Depends on what your goals are. Do you have a deadline? Is it really important?

If for example i had exams like next weeks/month and i had some material to cover, i would definitely force myself to practice at least 2x30-45' a day and i would split that in 2 different times of day few hours apart, hoping for the best.

If i had exams by the end of the year i would take it easy but also force myself to play at least some scales or an easy tune for 10' worst case scenario.

I am thinking that one reason that i stopped playing in the past and didn't start again earlier than now, is that i was forcing myself when i didn't need to. If you are, playing for your enjoyment - and don't have certain goals, degree, concert etc. - i'd say try to "force" yourself in playing, sit and hit few keys, play some chords to get in the mood and if it doesn't work, try another day!

[inkspot]

I always get caught out by the word "learn" because it seems often people mean "memorize".

In the process of learning, I tend to memorize as I go-- memorizing always having been easy for me. This said, memorizing is part of the process, but not the main part that feels forced. What really feels forced is trying to get the piece "under the hands" initially.

Being in university, it would be helpful to get past this first phase as quickly as possible. Not only can more pieces be covered this way, but more time can be spent on the musical aspects of the piece. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a way to accomplish this