THANK YOU EVERYONE!!! (Struggling with letting upper arms 'drop')

[cinnamon21]

Hello guys,

I hope the title caught your attention because I want to thank the members of this forum who have helped me to deal with my problems (pianistically, psychologically, mentally) this year. I can't name everyone who replied to my previous posts but I'm very thankful for the advice you've given me when I'm in an unstable and destructive mental state due the injuries and psychological trauma I've suffered...I can say that you guys have saved my life since my parents and friends, no matter how supportive, couldn't understand my problem...while my conservatory teachers are basically useless (one told me to just stay at home, the other told me to 'just' become a piano teacher). Thank you !!!

3 months ago, I dared myself to call and meet a FAMOUS teacher who 'produced' International competition winners, and played in front of him to get feedbacks. He commended my 'musicality' but heavily criticized my way of playing, and I was introduced to his student, a wonderful teacher who taught me the concept of arm weight. Now, I'm in a better place and my playing has improved a lot and now my tone is much better. Now I can finally play loud octaves and soft chords without pain.

Anyway, I just get to see my new teacher once or twice per month because I literally have to fly to another neighbor country to see her since there are no knowledgable teachers in my area...so on top of the expensive tuition fees, I have to think about the plane tickets and accommodation.

For now, it's been one month since I last saw her. But I have been practicing on my own and I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing but I DO feel and sound better. But sometimes my upper arms still get stiff and refuse to release and just let go...and I have to consciously think to myself to 'drop, drop, drop' on every single note.  Anyone else with the same experience? How did you practice?

Thank You

[hardy_practice]

Any slow music at your stage I'd drop on every note.  Faster stuff drop at the beginning of the phrase and raise at the end.

[amytsuda]

But sometimes my upper arms still get stiff and refuse to release and just let go...and I have to consciously think to myself to 'drop, drop, drop' on every single note. 

Can you specify with what sorts of passages you experience upper arm tension?

I used to have serious issues of arm tension till 10 months ago, as results of mostly self learning. My sounds used to be very harsh. I realized I don't experience the tension anymore now. My new teacher put me to a strict discipline of slow and soft practice. I used to sight read a bunch of big stuff at tempo. Now I have to learn a new piece at very slow slow tempo very soft first, until I can play the piece through without having any tension. Then, gradually add dynamics and gradually speed up. Paying attention to every note and every finger, hand and arm movement. Then, add pedals at the end. To be honest, it is awful to practice this way. It takes forever to master one piece. But the tension is gone, because I am not allowed to bring up tempo, unless I can comfortably play it.

By sticking to this, I learned a lot about my issues when I get tensions. I have odd hand shape with short tiny pinkies (only reach 9th) and long 4th fingers (can reach 10th). So trying to help pinkies, I used odd hand positions with arm tensions.  Slow practice helped me to keep hands straight and drop my tiny pinkies straight down which help to keep upper arms dropped. As my pinkies are weak, it's been months to build proper muscle to move them correctly without developing issues. So you may be also using your upper arms to compensate something else.

[xdjuicebox]

Well, there's no sense in doing something unless it makes you sound better. So think about how you doing what you want to do will make you sound better.

If my arms are relaxed, I get that almost-Rubenstein tone that I absolutely adore, and because I always want that tone, I will instinctively drop.

[cinnamon21]

Can you specify with what sorts of passages you experience upper arm tension?

I used to have serious issues of arm tension till 10 months ago, as results of mostly self learning. My sounds used to be very harsh. I realized I don't experience the tension anymore now. My new teacher put me to a strict discipline of slow and soft practice. I used to sight read a bunch of big stuff at tempo. Now I have to learn a new piece at very slow slow tempo very soft first, until I can play the piece through without having any tension. Then, gradually add dynamics and gradually speed up. Paying attention to every note and every finger, hand and arm movement. Then, add pedals at the end. To be honest, it is awful to practice this way. It takes forever to master one piece. But the tension is gone, because I am not allowed to bring up tempo, unless I can comfortably play it.

By sticking to this, I learned a lot about my issues when I get tensions. I have odd hand shape with short tiny pinkies (only reach 9th) and long 4th fingers (can reach 10th). So trying to help pinkies, I used odd hand positions with arm tensions.  Slow practice helped me to keep hands straight and drop my tiny pinkies straight down which help to keep upper arms dropped. As my pinkies are weak, it's been months to build proper muscle to move them correctly without developing issues. So you may be also using your upper arms to compensate something else.

I can drop on slow pieces..like Debussy Reflets dans l'eau, Ravel Jeux d'eau, Brahms intermezzi...and by dropping I can get the open, full and 'serene' tone. But when I tried fast passages of Mendelssohn Variations Seriuses, my sound becomes harsh again... When I used arm weight, it sounded better but I gotta practice it veryyy...very slowly....but I'm afraid I still won't get anywhere in the end  I can't drop weight in fast passages. What do I do? :/

[hardy_practice]

It's a life's work - in fact life's work.

[amytsuda]

But when I tried fast passages of Mendelssohn Variations Seriuses, my sound becomes harsh again... When I used arm weight, it sounded better but I gotta practice it veryyy...very slowly....but I'm afraid I still won't get anywhere in the end  I can't drop weight in fast passages. What do I do? :/

I never studied Mendelssohn Variations Seriuses (or I have to confess I never studied Mendelssohn!), so I decided to look up the score. I see what you mean. This is exactly the kind of piece I would get a looot of tensions in my arms and hands and end up having pains in shoulders and upper arms. Fast jumping big chords in forte. Fast expansion and contraction of hands. Strong staccato with big chords. When I see those pieces I normally look up on YouTube and see if I can find a female pianist with small hands playing them so I can learn from their movements. So I did that and found Annie Zhou playing it (and she looked slightly tense).

Only the slow slow practice is the way I think. I'd find a metronome tempo with which I can play it comfortably. And then start bringing the tempo up by 1 notch. For example, if 60 is comfortable, then, bring it to 61, 62, 63, etc. Only by a few every day, and don't go any further unless I am comfortable - and pay attention to all muscle including back, stomach and legs if I am supporting to let arms drop. I'd not want to commit to learn a piece like this with a timeline - a path to injury.

[cinnamon21]

I never studied Mendelssohn Variations Seriuses (or I have to confess I never studied Mendelssohn!), so I decided to look up the score. I see what you mean. This is exactly the kind of piece I would get a looot of tensions in my arms and hands and end up having pains in shoulders and upper arms. Fast jumping big chords in forte. Fast expansion and contraction of hands. Strong staccato with big chords. When I see those pieces I normally look up on YouTube and see if I can find a female pianist with small hands playing them so I can learn from their movements. So I did that and found Annie Zhou playing it (and she looked slightly tense).


Only the slow slow practice is the way I think. I'd find a metronome tempo with which I can play it comfortably. And then start bringing the tempo up by 1 notch. For example, if 60 is comfortable, then, bring it to 61, 62, 63, etc. Only by a few every day, and don't go any further unless I am comfortable - and pay attention to all muscle including back, stomach and legs if I am supporting to let arms drop. I'd not want to commit to learn a piece like this with a timeline - a path to injury.

Thank you for the advice, amytsuda. I have small hands as well (an octave max from the edge) but so far I have learned to relax with octaves...just not those fast octaves in Liszt pieces. I was going to use this Mendelssohn piece for my Master's audition at the end of this year and I have memorized it carefully. Now...I'm confused whether I should just learn another Romantic piece  that isn't as risky...in case I can't bring this piece to a performance level by then.

[amytsuda]

Since I am just an old amateur with no music degree, I can't comment on what makes a good audition piece. I heard you are supposed to play contrasted repertoires and all the good requirements. So you need to consult with your teacher in your next visit.

But the more I search female pianists with small hands, I came to think we have to find and show our niche. I really look up to pianists like Mitsuko Uchida and Angela Hewitt. Those really made it despite their small hands. While Angela Hewitt does perform Liszt, she gets criticized for lack of power and sizzle, and she is really acknowledged for her Bach. When Mitsuko Uchida won 2nd place in Chopin Competition, I read that she was a complete contrast with the winner Garrick Ohlsson by playing everything extremely soft, sensitive and pianissimo. So definitely, you'd at least want to include a composition that displays your strengths the most in your audition or interpret a piece uniquely to make it work with your hands.

[cinnamon21]

Since I am just an old amateur with no music degree, I can't comment on what makes a good audition piece. I heard you are supposed to play contrasted repertoires and all the good requirements. So you need to consult with your teacher in your next visit.

But the more I search female pianists with small hands, I came to think we have to find and show our niche. I really look up to pianists like Mitsuko Uchida and Angela Hewitt. Those really made it despite their small hands. While Angela Hewitt does perform Liszt, she gets criticized for lack of power and sizzle, and she is really acknowledged for her Bach. When Mitsuko Uchida won 2nd place in Chopin Competition, I read that she was a complete contrast with the winner Garrick Ohlsson by playing everything extremely soft, sensitive and pianissimo. So definitely, you'd at least want to include a composition that displays your strengths the most in your audition or interpret a piece uniquely to make it work with your hands.

Yeah , you're right about displaying what I'm good at. I have experienced how it's like to perform something that's not for me n it was disastrous. Thanks for the responses, I'll post my audition program in the next thread.

[isaach]

I have to say, and I don't mean it badly, but I think you chose the wrong instrument. It sounds like you both don't have a nack for the technique, nor the physical build to ever achieve what you want. It really something to consider, because if you are indeed very musically gifted, and you feel like you were meant to do it, that will come through on whatever instrument you're playing, maybe you would be the best violinist ever? I have met many many frustrated students (not mine!) who find themselves running inti a wall of where nature will allow them to go, and it never works out, but it does usually end in debilitating Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.

But aside from that, don't focus so much of your wrist and elbows. Elbows should just hang, only to mive out sideways as you go up the keyboard, like wings. They should just hang loosely from your shoulder. If you just focus on always keeping your shoulders relaxed and your arms hanging, stiffness will be impossible. the problem with having very small hands though, is that once you try to play quick octaves or chords, it will actually be impossible without a degree of stiffness because the stretching itself causes stiffness! I would never try to play a fast run of tenths, for instance, because I know how I would have to strain to do so.

[cinnamon21]

I have to say, and I don't mean it badly, but I think you chose the wrong instrument. It sounds like you both don't have a nack for the technique, nor the physical build to ever achieve what you want. It really something to consider, because if you are indeed very musically gifted, and you feel like you were meant to do it, that will come through on whatever instrument you're playing, maybe you would be the best violinist ever? I have met many many frustrated students (not mine!) who find themselves running inti a wall of where nature will allow them to go, and it never works out, but it does usually end in debilitating Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.

But aside from that, don't focus so much of your wrist and elbows. Elbows should just hang, only to mive out sideways as you go up the keyboard, like wings. They should just hang loosely from your shoulder. If you just focus on always keeping your shoulders relaxed and your arms hanging, stiffness will be impossible. the problem with having very small hands though, is that once you try to play quick octaves or chords, it will actually be impossible without a degree of stiffness because the stretching itself causes stiffness! I would never try to play a fast run of tenths, for instance, because I know how I would have to strain to do so.

No worries isaach. Sometimes I like to think to myself how it would be if I had chosen another instrument from the start. But I have gone too far...I'm 21...and I have done a degree in piano performance...and I love piano. I have spent the past 7 years practising and thinking about a career in piano. I even got complimented a lot by professors during masterclasses, which of course couldn't detect any tension and said how talented I am...maybe they have low standards or didn't expect much. But I met a teacher who is honest enough to let me know I have a lot to relearn.

I have seen too many people who studied in prestigious universities, won competitions...got scholarship...but have ugly tone and flat playing. They play everything hard and heavy. I don't expect much for now, just want to play with good technique and beautiful tone so I can teach better.

[amytsuda]

the problem with having very small hands though, is that once you try to play quick octaves or chords, it will actually be impossible without a degree of stiffness because the stretching itself causes stiffness!

That's absolutely correct, and the case with me. But I realized that there are enough repertoires that don't have quick octave scales or big loud chord sequences and are very beautiful which I can play with no tension - Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn, Schubert, Schumann, Chopin, Debussy, Ravel.....

The problem is too much focus on the big stage performance and crowd pleasing performance by those music schools. I am a 45 hobbyist with no plan to become any professional musician, and they'd still try to teach me to be able to play a big stuff with big sound - I took some lessons. I don't need to play Liszt Mephisto Waltz or Rach Etudes Tableaux. It doesn't make sense for 45 hobbyist wit small hands, but that's how they were trained to teach. They forgot not everyone has to become Daniil Trifonov or Yuja Wang - There are Mitsuko Uchida and Andras Schiff, and would you try to make them play Liszt Mephisto Waltz?

I think the key is knowing own hands and selecting repertoires wisely. Many teachers say "practicing and repeating will make any repertoire work". That's not true. It's just a path to injuries. But they don't know it, because they are often male with bigger hands. If we select right repertoires, the tension isn't an issue anymore, and we can really focus on the details, color and expression. Since with small hands, we can't sizzle and dazzle to impress people, the details become even more important. And some repertoires are really made for those details.