My journey with Chopin's Opus 25 #6 - a diary of sorts

[jimroof]

Despite having developed pretty good technique when in my late teens and early 20's, there have always been problem areas that I never addressed.  Part of that was the big missing gap in my piano education that was from about the 6th grade until I entered college as a piano student.  If you are wondering... yes, I was just BARELY admitted into the program at Georgia State and served a quarter on 'probation' that was dropped after my first quarter's jury. 

A few times I thought I would learn Opus 25 #6, but it just humbled me too much.  I never thought it was beyond my ability, but I knew it would require more effort than probably any work by any composer I have ever played in terms of technical growth. 

Now I am 58.  It is now or never.  So, I am committed to mastering this piece.  I am going to conquer it.  I have no idea how long it will take me to develop the control and the velocity to get it, but I am going to practice it every day for at least 30 minutes and probably more like an hour until it is up to performance level.

I have been working on it for the last week with a very purposeful goal.  I have listened to at least 15 renditions on YouTube, all of which seem totally out of my grasp right now.  I have also watched Paul Barton's tutorials on YouTube and they are at once both encouraging and enlightening.

Right out of the gate, my hand did not even want to get the opening 3 bars at anything close to clean... at any tempo that was more than ridiculously slow.  So... I did ridiculously slow.  I am talking about less than 1/2 tempo.  And even at that, the trills would start to break down once any fatigue would set in. 

After about 3-4 days, I noticed improvement.  Not that I was getting any velocity to speak of, but my hand started to feel much better in those opening measures.  BTW, I am NOT worrying too much about the left hand right now.  The LH will be a piece of cake as everyone has told me that my LH looks more at home on the piano than my right...

Tonight I practiced on my Korg SP-250 that is in my office in the basement.  It has a harder action than my Yamaha upright so I think I get more done for now on it.  As of this evening (after about 8-10 days of practice on this, L'isle Joyeuse and Brahms Second, I can play all of the thirds phrases at a tempo of about 45 per half note.  For the sake of simplicity, I set it to quarter note = 90.  The goal, for now, is a little slower than the half note = 69.  If I can play this cleanly at 60 I will consider the piece learned and the final tempo likely just a matter of at little more time.

I have decided to use the 2nd finger slide for the chromatic scales as opposed to doubling the thumb on successive white keys.  This may make it a little harder, but that is the only way to get a true legato and I have used this technique in other works before. 

Right now, the hardest measures are 23 and 24.  I have been working very hard on the final descending chromatic scale at the end of the piece.  Slow practice with keeping my hands and fingers as close as possible to the keys to program in economy of motion.  I know the final tempo will depend upon as little wasted motion as possible. 

After the first full week, I have seen improvement every day.  It is already better than ANY time I had attempted this piece in the past and despite my youthful strength and flexibility during those early looks at it, I am counting on my 58 years of wisdom to overcome what I might have lost in physical ability.  Even at a tempo that is more than 35% off the desired result, the piece is enjoyable to play.  When practicing it slowly (though it still feels like breakneck speed to me at times) I strive to be as musical as possible.

As milestones are reached I will update this thread.  I have seen others express interest in how this piece is dealt with and that is why I am posting this.  That, and it will serve as a form of accountability for me. 

[briansaddleback]

I hope you make it. Do not fail. I'm counting on you. 

I like this piece I dabble in this one every once in awhile it is fun stuff.

[anamnesis]

Personally, I think it's a mistake to ignore the left hand while trying to master the right. 

The rhythmic impulses of the left will help out the right, and make it easier to bring it up to speed.

For each quarter note figure practice just playing  the the the first and last sixteenth note for each run and even the trills. Think of the the middle notes as just extra filling or as just passing tones to those notes.  You should be able to play a musically convincing sketch of the piece just using those notes for most of the piece.  For short practice sections, alternate back and forth between this sketch and filling in that sketch.

Playing figures backwards as well as symmetrical inversions with the left hand are also quite illuminating. Cortot and Godowsky's exercises are also quite useful if done correctly. Apply them specifically to small sections you are working on, and go back and forth between them and the original.   

[jimroof]

Personally, I think it's a mistake to ignore the left hand while trying to master the right. 

The rhythmic impulses of the left will help out the right, and make it easier to bring it up to speed.

For each quarter note figure practice just playing  the the the first and last sixteenth note for each run and even the trills. Think of the the middle notes as just extra filling or as just passing tones to those notes.  You should be able to play a musically convincing sketch of the piece just using those notes for most of the piece.  For short practice sections, alternate back and forth between this sketch and filling in that sketch.

Playing figures backwards as well as symmetrical inversions with the left hand are also quite illuminating. Cortot and Godowsky's exercises are also quite useful if done correctly. Apply them specifically to small sections you are working on, and go back and forth between them and the original.   

The RH on this is so demanding that I really need to focus on its development.  I agree, however, that the LH here IS the anchor and it will eventually lend tremendous support to the triggering of muscle memory with regards to the RH.  I play it both hands numerous times per day, but the real woodshed work is still RH solo just to develop the technique I will need to get this to real performance level.

A small breakthrough today (1/31/2015).  As I was running over the RH today, I suddenly became aware of the inside and outside fingers on my right hand as if they were starting to get 'wired' into my brain as groups.  Running the chromatic thirds scales, ascending and descending, when I was working around the three black keys, I was just more aware of this funny little play between 1-4(5) and 2-3, as if there was a very gentle rocking motion from front to back.  I ran upstairs to my Yamaha U1D (pretty light action) and briefly hit about 60 on the half note for the opening half page.  Light at the end of the tunnel before I expected it...

[jimroof]

Update - 1/2/2016

My practice sessions are a bit uneven.  There have been a few times when the descending chromatic thirds scale at the end of the piece has felt very very smooth, though not yet up to tempo.  The best I have made any of the scales run has been the half note = 60, still 15% off the tempo indication by Chopin (half note = 69). 

Did an experiment today to see what my hand was doing with a slow motion video.  I am a firm believer in visualization.  Many years ago when struggling with the coda to Chopin's Gm Ballade, I took time to just imagine playing the coda flawlessly, up to a very desirable tempo.  Just doing that exercise helped me immensely.  So, I watch this video over and over and look at what my hand is doing.  I have posted it below in case anyone is interested in how the 2-2 slide fingering is working out.  Last night I had a practice session in which I was hitting 60 for the half note on isolated bursts of passages, but any sustained playing tops out at around 50.  This video is somewhere around 50 for the half note, maybe a tad slower.  Compared to the very strong performances seen and heard from very good players, this tempo (though it still feels a bit challenging at times when my mind wanders) seems downright sluggish.  But, it has now been 2 weeks since I decided I would master this piece.

Here is the video - 2 octaves of the descending minor thirds scale from the end of the etude.  My goal is to achieve economy of motion.  I am clearly not there yet.

[briansaddleback]

That video was cool! I see your technique is very good hand motion finger motion. Reveals you have many years experience just by watching that for a few seconds.  I dabble in this a little but I do work on a thirds exercise which is Czerny 740 10 a very (unknown maybe?) effective exercise for me to upkeep my basic thirds playing ability it has more of the standard thirds figurations one would find for brief spurts in repertoire (Chopin's is of course is chromatic) and I (I'm sure you did too) worked out EVERY SINGLE hitch I have from a third to third. Study why that is a problem and figure out a conventional way or even an 'ingenious' way (by my standards) to solve that movement problem and thus sound problem. The solve is usually an exaggerated movement , I memorize that movement specificfor each issue I come to and then slowly lessen that exaggeration until I believe my hand is more fluid looking and hopefully sound is more fluid too. Not that you don't know. But just sharing a response to acknowledge your work here.

[kawai_cs]

The solve is usually an exaggerated movement , I memorize that movement specificfor each issue I come to and then slowly lessen that exaggeration

I do it the same way.
For this specific etude I remember that Josh Wright said he asked somebody who played this etude super nice how they practiced it. The answer was - a lot of practice with special attention to very flexible wrists. Ok - that is all I know about 25/6 (which you probably know too). I just thought I will add my 2 cents so you know we are following

[anamnesis]

The RH on this is so demanding that I really need to focus on its development.  I agree, however, that the LH here IS the anchor and it will eventually lend tremendous support to the triggering of muscle memory with regards to the RH.  I play it both hands numerous times per day, but the real woodshed work is still RH solo just to develop the technique I will need to get this to real performance level.

A small breakthrough today (1/31/2015).  As I was running over the RH today, I suddenly became aware of the inside and outside fingers on my right hand as if they were starting to get 'wired' into my brain as groups.  Running the chromatic thirds scales, ascending and descending, when I was working around the three black keys, I was just more aware of this funny little play between 1-4(5) and 2-3, as if there was a very gentle rocking motion from front to back.  I ran upstairs to my Yamaha U1D (pretty light action) and briefly hit about 60 on the half note for the opening half page.  Light at the end of the tunnel before I expected it...

A solo right hand work is needed to clean things up; however, I still firmly believe in the need for HT practice to get this up to speed, assuming you have the basic technique down.  (Solo work is also good if you are still finding the correct motions for the technique.  But if you are already trying to get this up to speed, then I'm assuming you have that down. )

At high speeds the the ear is the only capable coordinator and cue master for your actions. 

Chromatic motion, especially via minor thirds is incredibly confusing for your ear and it will slow you down because you will listen to every single note.

The sketch I offered earlier is somewhat helpful in that it simplifies each four-sixteenth note figure to its basic diminished triad (or major at the start of the run), reducing each full bar of a run into four triads with chromatic passing tones in-between; however, even that is confusing to the ear.

The simpler tonal material in the left hand is much easier to comprehend and is a better cue master to get this etude up to speed. 

For example the first chromatic run is best coordinated by the diatonic motion in the left.  If you try to coordinate it by the chromatic motion,  it will take a long time to get it up to speed.

If you do solo practice, you need to be able to imagine the diatonic progression that occurs simultaneously under the chromatic thirds, and use that to coordinate the thirds.

[jimroof]

I looks at it more like the left hand becomes the anchor, giving the right hand its cues as to when the 2nd finger comes off the D# or F# and when 5 hits its two notes in the chromatic scale.

I do not have this down by any stretch, but I now see the light at the end of the tunnel.  At this point, it is but a matter of time and patience.

The focus is on the 4 octave descending scale right now with probably 4 times more time spent on that than any other single passage.  Why?  Well, it is the longest run in the piece and it is also prone to suffer from fatigue when playing at full tempo - plus, it's the last thing one would remember.

Hit 108 on the quarter note on this run today.  Control and togetherness is still an issue when I push the tempo.  Funny, sometimes the trills seem easy and sometimes my hand just does not get it.  More work to be done.

[jimroof]

It's been a week since my first Opus 25 #6 diary entry.  Here is what I have learned and where things stand right now.

1.  The piece is now fun to play, but there are fits and starts if I push the tempo.  After about 20 minutes of constant practice I start to get tired hands (actually... just the right hand) and I start to get sluggish. 

2.   I am also working on the Brahm's Second Piano Concerto and there are some 4-5 and 3-5 trills and tremolos that I think are adding to the fatigue.  When my hand gets the slightest bit sore I quit and let it rest overnight or even the next day.  This is training and even though they are small, the muscles in my arms and hands need time to recover.

3.  Just for the fun of it, I wanted to see my top 'breakneck' speed on sections that I have learned pretty well.  120 to the quarter note.  The indication tempo is 138.  Having gone from sight reading to playing it all the way through at about 90-96 (quarter note) in a little more than 2 weeks, plus the little bursts of 120 (including the final 4 octave descending minor thirds scale), I think by the Spring I will be up to a solid performance speed of 120+ and maybe even the 138...

Moral of the story - even if you think you are just slogging through - KEEP SLOGGING.  Just make sure your slogging is done cleanly and efficiently WITH THE FINGERING you have settled on. 

[ted]

Instead of preserving continuity and sacrificing speed, have you tried working on it the other way around too, that is to say, splitting things you find difficult into small segments, played up to speed easily but separated by microsleeps ? Then over time, join the sections together in pairs until the whole thing is continuous. It works better for some people than for others but it might be worth a try. Those for whom it does work usually get results very quickly.

[siveron]

Good initiative, keep going!

[jimroof]

January 14 update...

Well, now things are shaping up nicely in my memorization of the work, but there are still some real tough sections that still seem nearly insurmountable.  The descending scale in measures 11 and 13 is right now the real sticking point.  Crossing 3 and 5 over 1 and 3 are giving me fits.  What makes this tougher is the fact that the 3 and 5 have to land on skinny keys and it is really easy to 'come in too hot' and overshoot the little black runway.

Also, since I am spending time in Brahm's 2nd Piano Concerto, I have been working on my 4-5 trills a good bit.  I think I might have overworked my hand a bit.  No pain or anything like that, but a couple of days ago I was just getting fatigued on the third reading of the Etude.

The minor thirds scales are coming along nicely.  Definitely light at the end of the tunnel for 85% of the piece, but it needs the 15% badly.  I am practicing a lot at 100 for the quarter note.  The ascending scales have to be held back to keep tempo but the descending scales are more of a problem and for some funny reason my metronome speeds up every time I try to play them...  ; ]

[lustercrush]

Interesting posts and great video - that sliding looks tricky.
Your hands tire by the third reading of the piece? Mine tire by the third bar!
Good luck.

[jimroof]

I am reminded once again that sometimes the best thing for a technique that is developing is a little time off.

I traveled for the last 2 days and Delta was going to charge me a very high rate to ship my piano with me, so I decided to leave it at home  .

What I DID do was a little tabletop practice.  Not a lot, but some.  Right hand only, slow trills between 1-4 and 2-5, 1-3 and 2-5 plus (since I am getting into Brahms' Second...) some 2-4 and 5 trills.  The hyphenated fingers are grouped, btw.

I get back later today and immediately felt the value in doing that tabletop work.  It is either that, or my muscles had a little time off to rebuild and get stronger.  Once again, light at the end of the tunnel.  Measures 11 and 13 were even noticeably improved.

[jimroof]

1/20 - It has now been about 4 weeks since I cracked the pages to this etude.  I have practiced at the very most maybe one hour per day and took 4-5 days off from it altogether.  Most of the early practice was right hand only to gain the technique and to program my reflexes (that is where piano playing comes from, BTW, it is mostly the spinal cord and base of the brain that controls the motor response in TRAINED pianists). 

Where do things stand now?  Well, it is NOT performance ready by any stretch.  The techniques and muscle memory are still growing.  I can tell you this however, without any doubt, Chopin's Etude Opus 25 #6 no longer intimidates me.  It is within my grasp.  At the current rate, and knowing how my learning curve and performance curve has worked in the past, I am 4 - 6 weeks out from being able to step on stage and let this one rip.

The things that have helped me the most...

1. Slow repetition of all scales, right hand only.
2. Deciding the fingering FIRST and making no changes unless absolutely necessary. 
3. Table top practice for the trills.

The indicated tempo is still about 15% above where I am currently.  2 weeks ago 50 to the half note was impossible to maintain.  Now that seems downright slow.  Yesterday, in a brief burst of energy, I was playing the descending A scale (measures 47 & 48) at the indicated tempo of 69 (half note).  That and the passages in measures 43-46 told me yesterday that the lion's share of the work has been done and it is now just a matter of staying the course.

I am having work done to my Yamaha upright at the end of the month.  When that gets finished and I have 4-6 more weeks under my belt on this I will likely record it.

My advice to others who have thought about this etude but were turned back from it due to the difficulty - dig in.  Have confidence in the PROCESS of learning.  If my 58 year old hands are capable after having not done serious study in over 2 decades (but always playing for the fun of it) then yours are probably capable too.  It will just take time.  If you are up to playing one of the Scherzo's or a Ballade in good form then this piece is likely in your range of improvement.  It will be hard as heck to start with.  Even if you never get it performance ready, I am certain that your technique will grow from it as long as you work it properly and do not get too tense or create bad habits from it.

Do not be so much goal focused as you are 'process focused'.  Ie., feel no pressure to finish the piece by any particular date.  Just resolve to give it a half hour per day and go along for the ride for where that ends up taking you.  You WILL think you are stuck in the mud over and over.  Stick with the program, relax, make it musical at ANY speed and there will be a payoff.

[adodd81802]

.

[jimroof]

1/29 Update...

Two days ago I really worked this piece, probably playing it 12-15 times straight through (plus sectional work for at least a half hour), now much easier as it is well within my memory.  I really never set out to memorize it per se, but it is now there from the simple repetition.

As a result of this heavier work, yesterday I was really struggling with it.  My hand was just not up to the task and I chalk this up to fatigue from the previous day's rather.  It felt as if my hands were working 'cold' but I could not achieve what a good warming up usually achieves.  In fact, my fingers were getting tangled up in BRAND NEW places yesterday and that was somewhat discouraging until I realized the likely cause.

So, today, it was better.  However, I am reminded of how things used to go when I was studying in college (I was a piano performance major).  There would be a week of progress that was very pleasing, but in an instant, I would suddenly shift gears into a stronger concept that would, by contrast, SEEMINGLY take my playing down a few notches.  In fact, I was for the most part progressing steadily PHYSICALLY, while my MIND was growing in leaps and bounds that would alter my perception in radical ways.

I know that the work I did over the past two days was GOOD.  I just need to relax and let my hands recoup and gain more strength.  I bet in 2 days I will be back fully and in better shape than I was in just 3 days ago. 

Specifically, the piece is pretty easy to play all the way through at half note = 50.  The runs and trills are all easy at this tempo, but I think that is a good tempo for what I would now call 'slow work' whereas three weeks ago that was a tempo that caused many crashes along the way.  I think my assessment of being ready to perform this in 6-8 weeks is probably about right.

[jimroof]

A strange thing happened starting about yesterday.

The ascending minor thirds scales took on a different character in the way they felt in my hand.  Instead of my hand feeling like it was being asked to perform some alien task that had some mysterious driving force that I could not always mentally grasp... they started to feel like I was just playing scales.

I am still about half way to performance on this etude in terms of time,  I think.  It has been about 6 weeks I think and I am playing this far better than any attempt I ever made when in my 'prime' playing days. 

Perhaps it is possible to teach a 58 year old dog some new tricks.

Now the tough parts have shifted a bit.  The F7 broken thirds descending 'zig zag' and the G# harmonic minor descending scale are the hardest parts.  Also, one section that was easy at quarter note = 110 is a lot tougher when I get the tempo over 120 for the quarter note.

And, the trills that were a piece of cake at 110-120 start to degrade after a few beats when over 120.  I am approaching this aspect of the etude with tabletop practice. 

More as things progress.

[jimroof]

February 15, 2016

Now it has been about 2 months since I started work on this.  I knew that this was going to be difficult.  This etude required the development of a totally NEW skill at the piano.  I had played brief passages of thirds in other pieces before, but nothing even CLOSE to this.  That said... and adding to that the fact that I am now in my late 50's with very little SERIOUS practice in the last 20 years, I was certainly NOT WRONG in my assessment that this would be tough.

Here is how things have sort of morphed a bit over the weeks.  The rising parallel minor thirds scales have become much easier, however, still prone to tripping up from time to time, especially when I am not warmed up.  A tempo of 120 (for the quarter note, or 60 for the half note) is fairly easy for these scales when my hands are warmed up.  I have briefly touched the indicated tempo of 69 for the half note, but that is something that I am trying to resist doing since it WILL introduce errors into my playing.

The trills are much better, but they really get no better than a 120 per quarter at this point unless I am willing to let it fall apart into mush. 

The hardest parts of the piece at THIS point in time are the broken thirds on the implied f7 chord that come after the all-white-key G7 broken chords.  The G7 is so incredibly easy to blaze through, then the sudden introduction of these little half inch hurdles called black keys... a totally different feel.

Also, something that was VERY easy to play at a relaxed tempo is now becoming a problem at a quicker pace - the figures in measures 15-16 and 43-46.  I think tabletop practice between 1 & 3 and 2 & 4 will help this.  On the topic of table top practice, I have a clock that is fairly loud in its 1 second clicks.  I listen to that and do short bursts of 16th note repetitions.  I may only get 4 16th's done, but I do that over and over.  Then do it for a burst of 2 seconds.  I find that playing these patterns on a tabletop is actually HARDER than playing it on a piano because there is no aural feedback, but there is noticeable improvement in a short period of time.  That is how I was able to help the 1 & 3/2 & 5 trills a great deal.

Finally, there is a section of what I would call 'turns' that happen after the trills.  One of these is much harder than the others, the ones in measure 24.  I noticed some players on YouTube who have this piece mastered to world class levels rotate their wrists when playing this 'turn'.  I found that helps a lot.  By rotating up a bit for the 2nd finger to reach the C#, then rotating back down for the same finger to play the E, it all seems to flow much more smoothly.  The rest seem very playable with fingers alone, with a rather quiet wrist.  Not this one.

So, two fine points to consider.  While the SOUND is the same, some sections require different technique or at least alterations in technique for ME to play.

Oh... just one more thing.  The first thing I started working on for this piece was the descending 4 octave minor thirds scale near the very end.  I think that was a wise decision.  I definitely feel a little fatigue by the time I get there and the extra work put into that passage was the right thing to do.  However, getting that scale up to tempo with the fingering I have decided to use (true legato fingering with the 2-2 slide from f# to f and again from c# to c) is still rather elusive.  I do NOT think it is the slide that is problem.  The problem is within the three back key group and is, like one of the other harder sections mentioned earlier, the dependent upon a quick 4 & 2 to 3 & 1 repetition.  I think by the time I have measures 15-16 and 43-46 ironed out, the same dexterity achieved there will translate directly to the final 4 octave scale.

The GOOD NEWS is this, I can now enjoy playing this piece at a tempo that is still not optimal, but certainly quick enough to feel the music and enjoy the progress.

My piano gets voiced tomorrow.  I am debating doing a recording that shows where I am on this right now, mistakes, uneven passages and all, as a way to further document this journey.  Hey, I might be SIXTY before I can play this like a true master.  That's fine.  I now wish I had started this long ago so that I could be enjoying it NOW, at 58.

[danielo]

Hi jim
I've been following this thread with interest
also working on Op25 no6
Have wanted to play it since about the age of 21
Many years ago now, and felt it was so far outside my capability to play. This could still be true! But I am working on it..........
I am able to play it through, very very slowly......the hardest parts of it for me are the chromatic descending chords in measures 29-32 (just remembering the next step down accurately each time), and just playing it legato.......
There are other difficulties including many that you have mentioned, and some that I am sure will rear their ugly heads once I start increasing the tempo. I am able to trill in thirds at around a speed of 120pm, or 60 to the half measure........that ability has definitely improved since I started work on this piece seriously again. However as soon as I try playing the rising third sequences, things go awry at that speed!
More slow practice to be done I think....
Anyway, I wish you very well with your journey on this piece. I have heard some say that the tougher etudes can take from 6 months to a year to learn and assimilate properly, even for the advanced amateur. Good luck and I will be very interested to hear if and when you master it.

[jimroof]

Danielo,

The descending broken diminished 7ths are difficult.  I am just having more trouble right now with the F7 broken pattern in the right hand because it creates, for me, a more 'reliably difficult' spot. 

I am doing a lot of slow work on the scales.  It sort of comes and goes with me, mentally.  As I mentioned some days ago, one day the ascending minor thirds scales just felt like... scales.  However, they sometimes revert to feeling like a foreign activity in which my hand feels not quite as attached to my mind as others.  I also found that, again for me, the weakest part of the scales was working in and around the 3 black key groups.  I am also using the second finger slide for these scales too.

Finally, try some very slow practice with hands together on these sections, one right after another.  Getting the right hand 'cued in' on what the left hand is doing does seem to create a 'cue' that my muscle memory picks up on.  Be objective in your study of this thing.  Have a long range outlook.  It would be one thing to feel 'weak' because a Mazurka is giving you trouble.  There is no shame in realizing some of the etudes take many months... or more.  I am 58 right now.  When I am 60, if I can perform this piece alongside 3 or 4 more etudes I will feel very good about the learning process.  Heck, I feel good already because I am much deeper into this than I ever was when a serious student.

Good luck and let us know how your journey is going.

[jimroof]

2/21/2016

This etude is the most technically challenging piece I have ever played.  Every section is improving, but some of them seem to have hit a brick wall.  Example, the 4 octave descending minor thirds scale.  half note = 60 is the best I can do and that feels like break neck speed MOST of the time.  However, I just remind myself that 5 weeks ago 60 was out of the question.

I thought I might record this for this thread so all could see really where I stand on this, but my pride is perhaps too great to do that.  Maybe I will anyway.

I have to remind myself as I listen and watch the Chopin Competition players play this etude that this was NOT something that they did in a few months.  My guess is most of these pianists have lived and breathed this piece for years.  I heard one of Paul Barton's YouTube videos on Opus 10, #1 (difficult, but NOT as difficult as 25/6) and he stated outright that this etude takes a long time to master... not months, but years.

That said, I just played it OK at a metronome marking of 58 for the half note (11 clicks off the marked tempo of 69), but there are many spots that really need to be polished.  I am glad that I have gotten where I have with it in 2 months (spending 30-45 minutes per day on it), patience and another few months should pay off. 

As far as endurance goes, I can play it 4 to 5 times now at my fastest current tempo and around the fourth time I notice some additional sloppiness due to fatigue. 

Will post again in a week or so.

[danielo]

If I could play the whole of that piece at 60 per half measure I would be delighted.....of course if I were ever to get there I know I'd then want to go the whole hog and do it at the stated 69.
I watch pianists like Valentina Lisisita (OK I'm actually not a huge fan of her musical style) but am in awe of her technical gifts. But some pianists just have that 'natural' fast speed that they can hone and refine......what I struggle with at times is the fear that no matter how much I practise, however many scales and exercises I were to do, it would be like asking an average guy to run the 100 metres in a sub 10 second time. I am afraid it isn't going to happen. I want to be wrong!!
I would love to hear that you have mastered this piece......

[adodd81802]

.

[danielo]

adodd81802

I was not intending to hijack the thread, just that I am working on the same piece, although I am not as far along the line with it as jim is. just one point, I was talking purely about the technical challenges posed by the piece and not the musicality of it, and my doubts about being able to ever play it at the required speed. I hope you are right, and that continued practise in the right way will overcome the hurdles.

I will confine my posts on this thread to the specifics of the piece from now on.

[jimroof]

If I could play the whole of that piece at 60 per half measure I would be delighted.....of course if I were ever to get there I know I'd then want to go the whole hog and do it at the stated 69.
I watch pianists like Valentina Lisisita (OK I'm actually not a huge fan of her musical style) but am in awe of her technical gifts. But some pianists just have that 'natural' fast speed that they can hone and refine......what I struggle with at times is the fear that no matter how much I practise, however many scales and exercises I were to do, it would be like asking an average guy to run the 100 metres in a sub 10 second time. I am afraid it isn't going to happen. I want to be wrong!!
I would love to hear that you have mastered this piece......

I was one of those pianists.  My instruction had more to do with reigning me in than it had to do with developing speed.  I was very fast, but initially very sloppy. 

Let me put my tempo issue in a better context.  50 for the half note seems slow now.  But, if I let my mind wander I will make a handful of errors at that tempo.  60 is the best I can do at present except for very brief moments when my 'warmed upness' was at peak level before fatigue started to set in.  In some of those moments I was able to hit 69 on a few select passages such as the descending A major scale that is about 80% through the piece. 

My teacher in college was sort of the opposite of me.  She worked very hard to develop her technique.  She had plenty of it and I recall her playing the Fm Ballade (Chopin) just beautifully, but getting there was a lot of hard work for her.  I think that might have meant that her mental 'wiring' was more complete than mine.  I could do some things just crazy quick, but other things flummoxed me - this Etude being one of the main ones.  Hence, my desire to conquer it about 36 years after having first set eyes on it.

I do think slow practice is absolute key to velocity.  Studies have been done that show a pianist's physical technique is NOT a function of the brain, but rather of the SPINAL CORD.  We are building a set of reflexes that we muster up at will.  Just like an MMA fighter might reflexively throw up a left hand to block a punch, then reflexively counter it... it has to become second nature or we remain pretty much stuck in the mud as far as effortless velocity is concerned.

[danielo]

Thanks jim, that is a really thoughtful reply.
I am happy you see that I was using the 100m as a metaphor for the speed aspect, not trying to make a direct comparison with piano playing.....
As for the etude, what will be really interesting is to see if I can develop the speed and the accuracy to play it at close to the right tempo, given that I do not have the 'natural' speed......I am just going to work at developing it through practice.
 I have made great strides on the Op 25 no1 and can play this pretty musically at around 85bpm, short of the 104 indicated but it still sounds amazing and I am beyond delighted......
I am resigned (if that is the right word) to months and more of hard work on the 25/6, but am seeing it also as a means to the end, as all the etudes are, of mastery of this piece being a step to becoming a better pianist.
I will continue to follow your diary with great interest!

[jimroof]

3/14/2016 Update

Still seeing progress, but a graph of my progress is going to look like an inverted bowl.  Ie., I am now at the point of diminishing returns if you look at the whole picture.  Ie., as I approach a performance tempo the gains are smaller because there is simply an upper limit to what anyone can do with this piece and I have not yet found my inverted 'terminal velocity' yet.

The opening trills are now easily playable at a tempo of the quarter note being 124-130 without them breaking apart at the seams.  The ascending minor thirds scales are also within that temp range, but they are NOT totally dependable at that tempo. 

The hardest parts now are the descending scales and the F7 based broken chords AND the diminished broken chords as well.

Light at the end of the tunnel now.  If I were in school and at this point in the learning of this piece I would likely volunteer to play it at one of our teacher's Friday morning critique sessions, with the caveat that there will be a small train wreck here and there.

I think I will record this in another week or two with that kind of exercise in mind.

[briansaddleback]

It has been 3 months you've been working on this etude why you no able to perform perfectly and mastered it like those many of us on the internet who claim can do it in 2 months?

Unacceptable.

[danielo]

Hope that's a joke brian......

[adodd81802]

.

[jimroof]

It has been 3 months you've been working on this etude why you no able to perform perfectly and mastered it like those many of us on the internet who claim can do it in 2 months?

Unacceptable.

Funny... I was just reading through Liszt's Mephisto Waltz 1 today.  I played this my senior year in college for my last recital and I honestly think I learned that thing in a month - or so it seemed.  My mind was like a sponge back then.  Now it is like a dried out grapefruit.

On the Etude... I have the time.  I am not taking this at the same clip of learning that I would have in school.  I probably have averaged 30 minutes per day on it and have taken some days off.  I have it 'learned' at this point.  The thing now is to get it more polished.  I am now really starting to get some new musical ideas for it that I do not recall having heard others do.  Little things that sort of lend an air of 'physics' to the piece (hard to explain...).

BTW.  Let nobody kid you.  This thing is tough.  Especially if you never perfected the thirds before.  I had encountered them only in small sections of Chopin and in major thirds in the Ginastera Piano Sonata 1 2nd movement.

[danielo]

Might help with the extended trills in thirds in the Bacarolle as well....beautiful piece but looking at it makes me shudder.

[amytsuda]

I've been struggling with just 2 measures of minor thirds in the coda of Ballade 4.... I am very inspired by your diary and looking forward to the actual video updates of how things are coming along.

I am one of old rebounders who took some lessons back in childhood and now struggling after 25 years of hiatus. I am never trained or able to master and polish any piece to the perfection where I can publicly perform. I will learn and memorize advanced repertoires in a month but with train wrecks everywhere even after 6 months. Last 2.5 years I've taken lessons from two teachers (I switched after a year), and neither has not been able to figure out why I can't clean it up and play musically... why I never progress anywhere after the first month (maybe my small hands...)

So reading your diaries is like sun light coming through a small window in the dark room. I heard your recordings from college days, so I know you are one of those who can play in a way I want to play one day. I had no idea how these people get there. Now I see how you are building it up slowly and patiently in stead of mastering it in 2 months and claiming it so online 

Are you taking a lesson? Or you are self-teaching now? Did anyone teach you how to go about perfecting a difficult piece like Op 25 6, daily practice approach, how to develop musical ideas, etc?

Now you say you are hitting the plateau a bit. What approached do people take when you hit the wall? For example, I do have a struggle with that two measures of minor thirds in Ballade 4 (my success rate is about 70% now - 1/3 chance it falls apart). After 4 months, what do I do about them?  Just keep trying it slowly every day? 

[jimroof]

I think the plateau thing is completely normal.  There are numerous complex things that have to happen before one can really improve.  There are physical things that have to happen (strength, muscle memory, flexibility) and there are mental things that also have to be in place (being able to envision playing the piece, being beyond the 'thought process' stage where things become instinctive and also conquering tension - a mental thing too).

Even when I was putting in 4-6 hours per day of practice, I hit plateaus that eventually got left behind so I just plug on ahead with the faith that IF something is within my ability then I WILL get it done and, if something is NOT within my ability, I only improve by thoughtful practice.

Right now, the 4-5 trills in both of Brahms' Piano Concertos seem almost impossible.  However, since having started 25 #6, they are not AS impossible as my weak right hand fingers are definitely getting stronger.

BTW, every time I think I might be close to recording this - my pride kicks in and says 'wait'.  So, it may be some weeks yet.

[diomedes]

In some ways this etude is the summit of piano playing, I've done and recorded double notes in ravel ondine, scarbo, Scriabin 9, and playing in a couple days (within a recital) Chopin 24th prelude.

In the context of a recital I frankly don't have the mental space for that preludes double notes though.

Anyway, with this etude, I'd say getting it right requires the resources that could be put into memorizing and executing a whole recital alone. Richter was legendary for his memory, my theory is thats why he could play the Schumann toccata and this etude with such ridiculous bravado.

For me, this etude is information overload, but one day I'll probably try again. When my brain grows.

[birba]

Blindfolded as well. oh wait...

Show off.   And i saw the two pin holes in the paper bag.  You can't fool me.

[birba]

Seriously, this is one of most interesting threads i've ever seen on PS.   And the slow motion clip was fascinating to watch.  Personally, i find the double note trills more difficult then the chromatic passages.

[briansaddleback]

This etude is freakin hard dude!

[amytsuda]

BTW, every time I think I might be close to recording this - my pride kicks in and says 'wait'.  So, it may be some weeks yet.

Maybe, the longer you wait, the higher the expectation gets   The progress is the topic of this post, just post the progress updates of some snippets? For people like me, I want to hear what it is like to be WIP for those who can actually perform professionally

[jimroof]

Maybe, the longer you wait, the higher the expectation gets   The progress is the topic of this post, just post the progress updates of some snippets? For people like me, I want to hear what it is like to be WIP for those who can actually perform professionally

Sadly, I am a perfectionist.  I guess that means I really opened up a can o' whupass on myself when I took this on. 

Once I get the two-handed broken diminished part better I will make a video.  There are 4 or 5 little tough spots now that routinely give me pause or cause a break in the performance, but the broken diminished chords are, for now, definitely the spot to work on.

[jimroof]

OK.  I decided to swallow my pride and in an effort to document where things stand at this point, I plunked my iPhone down on a coffee table in the room where my upright is located and recorded this etude.  It is here for the picking apart and, believe me, there is a lot to go after.  First, the recording is pretty bad, but it shows you where I am with this.

My wife and kids went to go see a movie so I decided to put in some practice since this piece is now really grating on everyone's nerves but my own.  I had worked on it for about 30 solid minutes and I was fairly fatigued.  Frankly, I was playing it better yesterday when it seemed fairly under control.  Today the fingers were losing their togetherness and some of the thirds are a bit broken in places.

To those that somewhat jokingly said I should have this licked after two months.  I am not sure how much of a joke that was.  Looking back at my younger years, I may have been able to master it when in my late Junior year in college.  But, at age 58, and having to learn what is really a new set of skills for this, it is going to take longer.  At this point, I would estimate that I have, over the course of about 90 days, put in at least 60 hours of work on it.  My guess is I have another 60 and I would be able to perform this publicly.

Musically, I am starting to encounter some ideas, some of which I think are unique and that I have never heard before, but you are likely to not hear them at this point because the technique is taking up 110% of my mental capacity when I play it now.

Here it is...

[mjames]

Chopin was a sadist huh...

Anyways it's not as bad as you think, at least not for me. You're almost there bro, hang on!

[adodd81802]

.

[jimroof]

Fantastic effort, I enjoyed listening to this.

Thanks.  It's going to get a lot better.  I may have bit off a lot to chew for having let so much time elapse between 'serious' practice.  I have continued to play all of my adult life but not necessarily practice.  I decided to use this as a sort of 'shock treatment'. 

I think I will record it again, perhaps with a better setup than an iPhone, in a few more weeks.

[adodd81802]

.

[danielo]

Jim that was really good! Sounded both accurate and musical to me. Speed wise it might be just a bit quicker but actually I think as a piece to perform, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. I'd be delighted if I was able to play the whole etude at that pace with your accuracy and phrasing!
I have ditched it for the time being in favour of Op25 no1, which I can play beautifully alone, however falls apart miserably in front of any kind of audience (even my wife). But that's for another thread I think......

[jimroof]

Jim that was really good! Sounded both accurate and musical to me. Speed wise it might be just a bit quicker but actually I think as a piece to perform, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. I'd be delighted if I was able to play the whole etude at that pace with your accuracy and phrasing!
I have ditched it for the time being in favour of Op25 no1, which I can play beautifully alone, however falls apart miserably in front of any kind of audience (even my wife). But that's for another thread I think......

A piece that takes nearly 100% attention to perform well in practice can really get take down a few notches when the presence of people (or even a RECORDER) gets involved.  I would suggest you record it.  If you are like me, the recorder will add some pressure.  That might be a decent stepping stone to live performance.

Last night I decided to impose a strict rule upon myself from this point one with 25 #6.  No more sloppy playing.  Take it down to whatever tempo is required to get every note to speak properly.  I want to see where that takes me for the next month or so.

[danielo]

That's a really good idea jim...
....I have a digital piano with a built-in recorder, so maybe that would be a good first step for me, recording it and posting my performance in here on a separate thread.
And taking any piece down to a sensible speed where you can pretty much guarantee not making any big errors, and playing it over and again without succumbing to temptation to speed up......hard to do! But that will pay off big time I think!  It worked for me for Op 25 no1, which is the most disciplined I have ever been practising a new piece.