Changing strings

[bosendorfer1989]

Hi,
 I'm new to your web. I have got my older Bosendorfer and the strings are showing some rust. I also believe they are tired. I have some new ones located that I want to use, however my piano tech doesn't want anything to do with replacing them for me. He is the only one around. So I am very crafty. I restore historic homes, commercial buildings and very fine antique furniture for a living. BUT I have never re-strung a grand piano before.
 Would I regret starting the process?

[chopinlover01]

If you don't have experience in piano tech., then yes, you likely will.
You'd be better off hiring someone to do it if you don't have the expertise; if you do it wrong you could potentially damage the pin block or other parts of your beautiful Bosendorfer.

[indianajo]

This belongs under instruments.  It doesn't even remotely have anything to do with performance.
I've changed one string.  It was a ****.  You will regret starting the process.  People that do this for a living will regret it too, and charge you appropriately.  Taking the action out and putting it back is a **** too, it took 4 tries to get everything to line up.  Doable but not like putting a head back on the engine with the guide ferrules and modern such aids. 
I made a string end radiusing tool.  Have you thought about the sharp bend at the pin?  I have  a friend that had 3 strings break on the same pin of  his Pearl River studio piano, not even factory warrentee service could get that one right.  Think maybe the radius of the pin hole might be a bit sharp? 
Bosendorfers are reputed to have exceedingly thin strings compared to Steinways etc.  They certainly have a distinct Ping you can hear on record.   Have you measured your source to verify that the new ones are going to be the same diameter?  Not to mention the bass strings, those have to be custom wound by the supplier usually.  The supply I use requires a sample bass string to achieve anything better than a random guess.   
If your piano sounds okay and strings don't break, don't fool with them.  If you don't like the sound, buy a junk action out of a lesser grand and fool with voicing on something you can ***** up and not hurt the Bosendorfer precision fit.  Voicing could keep you busy the rest of your life learning tricks of the trade.  I'm just glad I don't practice enough, my pianos don't need it yet. 
Rust on strings does not, IMHO, make them sound bad.  I replaced mine because I broke one. 
Putting the pin in the block without damage requires an experienced hand at torquing normal to the plane without wobbling.  I consider myself qualified after 40 years of auto and factory maintenance. Same trick as getting a cap screw in a corroded aluminum hole without boogering the threads. 

[bosendorfer1989]

I agree this should be in a different section. Since the sound of the instrument has nothing to do with performance.
 The actual string selection, sending the first and last string off in the bass section and the micrometer measuring is all rudimental things. However your point of possibly damaging the piano itself is reason enough to leave it be for now.   

[iansinclair]

Right.  It should be under instruments, but since it's here...

Don't do it.  You may be crafty.  For all I know you may be really superb at some things.  Replacing the strings on any piano, however (never mind a top end piano) is a job for a really well trained technician.  There are just too many catastrophic things to go wrong.  If you really want to get into that business, apprentice yourself to a really top end tech.  This is not a DIY project.

Perhaps more to the point: a little rust never hurt a string.  A lot of rust, yes.  A little, no.  The string will break long before the visible rust gets to the point of hurting the tone.  Furthermore, strings don't get tired.  Sometimes a bass string (the wire wound ones) may need to have the wire winding tightened, if they buzz -- but that's also a job for a top end tech. -- but tired?  No.

[quantum]

If this was a junk piano and you were interested in learning the piano tech craft, I'd say go for it.  However, for an instrument of this caliber in working order, just hire an experienced tech to do it. 

A little surface rust or discoloration is not much to worry about.  Are there other reasons why you are considering changing strings? 

[bosendorfer1989]

The biggest problem is there is only one tech around here and he doesent want to do it. So the cost of "hiring" it done has become considerably higher to ship it off or hire a tech from some other city. Still its not so much that as the chance to be more close and personal to the piano if I did it. I have completely decided I'm not going to try without someone that is in full comfront standing over and watching (helping) me do it.
 Anyway as for why. I know Russell from the piano outlet in Florida. In his opinon the strings need to be replaced about every 15-20 years. I'm a huge believer of this. How often does a guitarist change there strings? Very often. The sound changes in a string over time. Everytime you tune the string the string is stretching or condensing. Every time the hammer hits that string its doing the same. what happens when you take a piece of metal and bend it back and forth many times? It breaks. So that tells me that the strings are getting weaker every time there played and tuned.
 Yes they also have surface rust on them. You say it doesent affect the playing. But if this piano is so nice as you all have said then why would it be ok to have rusty strings on it? So part of the reason is the fact the strings are rusty.

[iansinclair]

I've heard the 15 to 20 years... the only comment I've ever made on it is the one I'll make here: I have three Steinway grands.  I did replace the strings on the Model A about 10 years ago.  They were 110 years old, more or less (well, let's be exact.  The piano is an 1898 A, and I had them replaced in 2004).  The piano is played daily, 2 to 4 hours per day, and has been for all those years.  I had the strings replaced because a couple of the bass strings were buzzing and I had a couple of broken treble strings.

It didn't make much difference in tone.

The Model M, from 1924, had a broken treble string which I replaced myself.  It will probably get restrung sometime in the next decade, but it isn't played every day, nor is it used for recitals (the A is).

The third is from 1904, an S, and has never been worked on at all.  It isn't played much, and has been only kept in tune with itself, not with A 440, for the last 15 years.  It is now about a quarter tone flat overall.

Replace the strings every 10 to 20 years?  Why?  Every century or so, maybe.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[indianajo]

Piano string material is high carbon material.  this steel does not pit when rusted, the way low carbon sheet metal does, car bodies for example. 
I've played many 50 year old uprights that were rusted inside.  Most were in tune with themselves - the pins rusted in place.  Most sounded the same from bass to treble strings.  The problem with moisture in a piano, it makes the hammer shafts warp, the whippens and all, and loosens the felt and clevis glue. 
There is a long Bosendorfer thread in instruments forum, about a year old.  Find and read it.    Bosendorfers are reported to  chew up strings more than Steinways etc.  Because they said the B strings are thinner, I would expect this effect to show up as variation in thickness along the length.  I would also expect strings preparing to fail, to decrease in pitch rather rapidly as tension is lost.  If you're not seeing these two symptoms, don't worry about it.   
As a fairly competent auto/factory mechanic and physicist, I am not so impressed by the dire warnings of the dangers working on your piano yourself.  Yeah, when I had to change a string, I had to do parts of the job over several times.  Doesn't mean it doesn't sound good when I got done - much better than the A5 string spliced by some tech in the 1941 Steinway, that goes "boink" every time I play it.  I will say it took a really long time, an hour at a time most days over ten days or two weeks as I worked up the nerve to try again.  Bending over makes my back and neck hurt, too, at age 65.   After that, I would think really hard about changing them all.  The action only comes out and goes back one time, but all that winding of coils and snaking and resnaking the wires in the right paths is a real ****. 
The bass strings, you may never get them to match the old ones, IMHO.  The trebles, if you're buying the wires with pre-made single end my organ voicer friend tells me about,  I could almost guarentee they are not Bosendorfer gauge strings since B's are so different.  I bought the music wire for my Sohmer from an industrial supply house, so I was sure they were going to match in diameter.  After listening to the sound I got,  they must be the same alloy, too, as the ones that were supplied to the Sohmer factory. In another country than USA, you may not be so fortunate! There are counterfeit everythings being pushed around the globe by the pimps from a certain country that think they can copy everything if the outside appearance matches. Well they can sell it but those counterfeit parts won't make a Boeing fly.   It so happens industrial music wire is still genuine, here.  Thank ***. 
Good fortune on  the reliability and lasting  tone of your premium grand piano.   

[quantum]

I've played on numerous pianos that have had rusty strings, and rarely was the impression a negative one.  Some of these instruments had a memorably distinctive voice.  On the other hand, one can not count on "new material" to give an immediate desirable effect.  There have been many brand new pianos loaned out yearly to universities by reputable brands that I have played, which just had a blah sound.  Something that I suspect is due to adequate amount of prep. 

Fully agree with what Ian and indianajo have said.

[daniloperusina]

Someone mentioned changing strings on a guitar. It is way more difficult to change even a single string on a piano than it is to change a whole set of guitar strings.
But it's not rocket science.
To be good at tuning, servicing, repairing and restoring pianos requires someone who is a master at these crafts, and that takes years of education and experience.
So, for expert results, you'd hire an expert.
If you want to have a go at it yourself, expect poor results.

The fact that your piano tech doesn't want to do it rings some warning bells:
*He lacks experience in string overhaul and does not want his name associated with a poorly done job.
*He considers the fault of your piano to be something else, i.e soundboard, mechanics etc, of which replacing the strings would be the last thing on the list of improvements.
*He  argues that overhauling the strings requires him to make all the correct measurements and ordering the correct set of strings as well as doing the laboursome work at a certain cost which you don't accept.

You say you have a new set of strings. How on earth did you get hold of those?
They either have to correspond exactly to the original set, or be exactly calculated to a new masterfully thought out scale.
In the wound section, the winding constist of copper wound around a steel core. The thickness of the copper and the steel is different on each string, and have to be exact. Also, the length of the bare steel and the wound part have to be exact. At the tuning-peg end, it's just plain steel wire. At the other end it's a plain steel wire with a specially made knot, which has to be precisely made. Are you positively sure that your strings are absolutely correct?

The rest of the strings are not wound. There are three strings to each note. Some pianos let each string do a u-turn and thus the same string becomes a double. Other pianos, like a Bösendorfer I know, uses individual strings for all three. Are you aware of how your Bösendorfer is constructed in this regard?

Let's say all these things are as they should, and all that is left to do is the actual replacement.
You have to have a tuning hammer which fits the size of your piano's tuning pegs. Let's say that you have that too. Let's also say that your piano has individual strings in the treble/plain steel section. And let's say that you have done some simple tuning/pitch corrections previously, and that you are familiar with techniques of how to settle a string on pitch. Are you familiar with the latter by the way?

So, for an easy albeit time-consuming job, change one string at a time. This will take you weeks, but don't be in a hurry.
Start somewhere in the middle of the piano. As you can see, there are about three turns of string at each tuning peg. This is what you have to achieve with your new strings with the pegs turned in as many turns as they are now. Slowly unturn the peg half a turn at a time. Then pause. If you go too fast the friction between wood and steel can cause dangerously high temperatures. You need to turn it all the three or three-and-a-half turns out, since this is the position you want to have for your replacement string. Then remove the old string. Place the new string, and make sure it is properly seated at the far end. When placing it in the tuning peg, stretch it fully. Next, calculate for three turns, i.e loosen it roughly the length of three or four of your finger's thickness when put together. The steel will stretch, so bear that in mind too. Then turn the peg half a turn at a time. Make sure the loose end of the string sticking out is above the turns of the string, i.e the string will make a downward spiral around the peg. Chech the pitch and the number of windings as you go along. You should end up with the correct pitch with at least three windings of the string. Compare with the neighbour pegs and windings. Next, the steel has to stretch and settle, so tune it too high, then wait and tune it too high again, wait and repeat procedure several times. Don't go as high as a semitone above. Eventually the steel will reach a point where it settles. Before that, it's not possible to tune the string to correct pitch and make it stay there.

Are you prepared to do this patiently for each of the 220 or so strings on your piano, and you are absolutely certain that you have a correct set of replacement strings, correct tuning hammer, basic tuning/pitch-correcting knowledge and technique, then go ahead!

A proper string overhaul would be done all strings at once, and requires much more expertise. Also, to do it correctly, meaning also to be prepared for problems turning up in the process, requires expertise. Apart from many other factors, the general tension of each string of a piano is in the vicinity of 70kg, which, if I'm not wrong, is more than the combined tension of all strings of a guitar, electric or acoustic.

Historically, tuning pianos and harpsichords were not uncommon among players and owners themselves in the 18th century, but during the 19th century it became more and more uncommon as the pianos grew in size and complexity of construction. During the latter half of the 19th century that was all gone, and a new profession was born, that of the skilled and trained piano technician and tuner. The piano as we know it today dates back to around 1860-1880.

You might want to attempt my description on a string or two, with little risk of doing much harm, but to be serious about it you would have to buy one of those well renomated books on the subject, of which Reblitz seems to be the classic one, and study and practice it much more in-depth.

A Bösendorfer is a Bösendorfer and a very well known masterfully built instrument and very expensive when new. To restore it to it's proper potential you are of course much better advised to pay for the out-of-town technician for a professional evaluation and servicing. But as it's owner, that is completely up to you. Think of it as an old porsche or ferrari and act as you find most appropriate.

 

[louispodesta]

The biggest problem is there is only one tech around here and he doesent want to do it. So the cost of "hiring" it done has become considerably higher to ship it off or hire a tech from some other city. Still its not so much that as the chance to be more close and personal to the piano if I did it. I have completely decided I'm not going to try without someone that is in full comfront standing over and watching (helping) me do it.
 Anyway as for why. I know Russell from the piano outlet in Florida. In his opinon the strings need to be replaced about every 15-20 years. I'm a huge believer of this. How often does a guitarist change there strings? Very often. The sound changes in a string over time. Everytime you tune the string the string is stretching or condensing. Every time the hammer hits that string its doing the same. what happens when you take a piece of metal and bend it back and forth many times? It breaks. So that tells me that the strings are getting weaker every time there played and tuned.
 Yes they also have surface rust on them. You say it doesent affect the playing. But if this piano is so nice as you all have said then why would it be ok to have rusty strings on it? So part of the reason is the fact the strings are rusty.

As a former piano tech trainee, one of the worthless jobs (1970's) was to take a steel brush and remove the rust from the strings of old uprights.  That does not mean that you whack at it, it instead means that you gently remove the surface rust.

If the strings were rusted through, you piano could not be played without breaking a string.  Plus, there are other methods of removing surface rust which use certain chemical rubs.

What you need to do is to find someone who works, or has worked at a piano store, and then ask them what the current method is for removing surface rust.  As far as your original idea of doing it yourself:  your piano has a tension of pounds PSI of anywhere from 10,000 to 50,000 depending on its age.

The last thing you want to occur is to have your piano explode, and trust me, it has happened.