The last post is very informative! For me, the best thing is to see a good teacher. But I do have a question that I am hoping is helpful to this discussion. You say the Appassionata is more taxing on the brain than anything else. What are you thinking about that makes this taxing to the brain? Is all your mental energy devoted to such things as to keeping your bones lined up properly and maintaining good structural integrity and other items of technique? It sounds like for you piano playing is maybe something like 95% mental and 5% physical due to having great technique. I will never be able to have great technique because I started playing piano at a late age. So piano will have a larger physical aspect percentage for me due to items such as “bleeding away” as you say. But I hope to develop good basic technique with the help of a teacher. I do believe in the importance of having the best technique possible. Thank you.
After reading your most recent post Georgey, I had respond to your post. In regards to players with a better technique, sure they may be able to use less force/physical exertion to achieve the same, if not better, results that one with the lesser technique, however, the use of their arms, fingers, wrists, and hands are still physical aspects. The point that I'm driving home is that piano playing is NEVER a 100% (purely) mental activity, there is still a fair amount of physical activity (stamina, dexterity, finger strength*) involved in playing the piano, even with the said technique. So basically, if one has good technique, while they may be able to compensate for somewhat less physical ability/body geometry, the fact is that the physical well being of a pianist can not be ignored (fingers, wrists, hands, arms in good shape, uninjured, and healthy).*heavily debated, but in certain pieces and times, yes it does have some impact, along with the action/feel of the keys.
I'm a big fan of Taubman method/Golandsky's work; there was a point where I did not play for 8 months due to the intense pain in both of my arms (ironically from playing my own compositions), and my new teacher introduced me to a modified Taubman method, which enabled me to get over the technical difficulties and "free" me. And the actual percent of physical activity really varies. But it should always feel good, even if you're working super hard and sweating. For a piece like Chopin Prelude Op. 28 No. 4 in E minor, it's like 99% mental and 1% physical. For a piece like Scarbo from Gaspard de la Nuit by Ravel (no, I can't play it and don't intend to for a couple years XD), it's more like 99% and 50% physical (lol jk) I'd say more like 70% mental and 30% physical. HOWEVER, it will feel like you are running a marathon. But marathons aren't strenuous, they are, however, exhausting, but it still feels like a healthy use of the body, which is important.
The main problems people have are dual muscular pull (due to the need to stabilize themselves because of weak bone alignment), and unnecessary contraction of muscles due to poor neural programming. But that's something good teachers and good practice can fix.
For example, when I play La Campanella (or I should say attempt to play LOL), once I get to the octave sections, it literally feels like a marathon, and I'm working VERY hard. In fact, I very frequently start sweating. However, it doesn't feel like any strain at all, it feels like a good use of my body, and I can keep it going for quite a decent amount of time. (If you watch Kissin's Proms performance, you can actually see the sweat dripping from his chin LOL)In regards to my mental focus, all of that is explicitly on music; the plan I had for it, the inspiration of the moment, and my temperament decide how I want to play. I "hear" the music in my head just a split second before I play it. Then I try to make it come out.The way I like to think of it is that the music itself is the cause for everything, and technique is the effect. I will not do a motion if there is no musical purpose for it. The "motions" of technique are supposed to be ingrained 100% into muscle memory (though I'm not quite there yet XD...far from it), so you don't have to think about them, but you sing a phrase in your head, and your hands know how to play it. However, you must spend a lot of time figuring out exactly how to move your hands to get the sounds that you want.So the physical aspect of the piano is VERY important, because it is the vehicle that enables the most important part - the music. But the physical aspect must arise from the musical need - forming a perfect circle of cause and effect. The musical need causes the technique (the effect), which in turn creates music... Too often I see people with only one or the other (and I lack quite a bit of both myself LOL), but yeah...
Strength is great; in fact, the more the better. HOWEVER, you must be able to control how much you use; I don't mean strain, I mean pure muscle power. A perfectly "relaxed" contraction is more efficient with more strength. Say I want to pick up a really heavy object. If I "strained," then I would contract both the biceps and the triceps, and they would fight each other (really inefficient), but this gives me the illusion of strength. However, if I contracted only my biceps, I can achieve a TON of power, and it won't really feel like much if I am sufficiently strong.
With regards to physical strength, too much strength (being muscle-bound, stiff) can be counter-productive towards playing, especially pieces that require a large range of motion, sensitive touch (lighter muscles), and dexterity (important for passages and pieces that require precise notes, touch, and more). I know there is a weight lifter that managed to do wellhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimiko_Douglass-Ishizaka, but I believe she is one of the few exceptions rather than the rule (yes there are people that do make both worlds work athlete + musician, but very rare.)The times where strength can be beneficial would be stamina, endurance, and getting a larger sound when pressing the keys. I do agree that controlled strength is important too, just that too much strength regardless of how good a technique is will hinder your playing.
"I'm a big fan of Taubman method/Golandsky's work; there was a point where I did not play for 8 months due to the intense pain in both of my arms (ironically from playing my own compositions), and my new teacher introduced me to a modified Taubman method, which enabled me to get over the technical difficulties and "free" me."With all due respect, this particular analysis solves nothing. Thomas Mark's method and its associated epistemology, addresses the overall body/mind method of playing the piano.It is not rocket science, and every time I see someone talking about the "muscles" for this or that, I cringe. Please avail yourselves of Dr. Mark's books and then respond back with your critiques.And, you will not do that for the same reason Dr. Mark cannot get booked (and I have tried!) into any major music school in the nation for a seminar/master class.Because, after he has left their campus (associated with teaching private lessons), what do the piano faculty members say to their students at their next piano lesson when they say: what do I do now!
Guys, when you have read Dr Mark's book(s) come back and start a thread on them, please! I have just started reading Neuhaus's book so Dr Mark has to wait till I am ready with it.
Bumping this topic before it becomes too old, and even now, my opinion and viewpoint has remained the same, especially the physical aspect of playing. This is because one's physical faculties (their body, upper body mostly, arms, wrists, hands, and fingers - along with muscles, nerves, tendons, bones, etc.) are also important along with the mental faculties in order to be a successful pianist. Piano playing is both a mental and physical activity, while a bit more mental than physical, the physical aspect cannot be overlooked or minimized.
@hardy_practiceAre you trying to tell me that just sitting in a specific posture will make you a great pianist, barring all other factors? I hope there is more than what meets the eye. I'm lost on what you're getting at.
That means that one should daily play their scales, broken chords, and arpeggios, stupid exercises, and then they will eventually possess decent technique at the piano.
I'm sorry, but this does not follow from piano6888's quote at all. He simply stated that improving certain physical faculties will have a positive effect on piano playing. I agree with you, louispodesta, in that endless scale routines won't necessarily accomplish this . . . I improved way more by doing exercies for the hands and fingers away from the piano, than by following instructions from the Taubman-DVD's.
Thank you for the clarification, it seems like we mostly agree after all.I will also agree that "finger strength" is a misnomer. What you really want is flexible fingers with a decent range of motion.I noticed several years ago that when playing scales I had to use very large movements in switching from ascending to descending scales with my right hand. I could never get my right hand completely syncronized with my left at the top of the scale, even in slow tempos. However, my left hand could do this turn with no effort or big movements whatsoever. My first instinct on how to fix this was to just practice more scales. So I did. For hours every day, for months. It did not work.Then I tried what seems to be the popular opinion on this forum. That is, analyzing my movements, trying different combinations of arm weight and rotation. Again, I did this every day for many months, and it still did not fix my scales. I could not figure out what magical movement my left hand was doing that my right hand didn't do. On the verge of giving up, I finally figured out what was going on. Having also played guitar for many years had made my left hand fingers WAY more flexible than my right hand fingers. As an experiment, I started to practice playing guitar upside down, fretting with my right hand. Just basic chords and scales. I noticed improvements on the piano immediately. For the past year I've been practicing guitar this way for about 10-15 minutes every day, and my right hand is almost as flexible as my left now. Words can not describe how much easier it feels to play the piano now, compared to one year ago. My fingers feels like steel, as you so nicely put it.In hindsight, I feel pretty stupid for missing what seemed to be the most obvious answer to my problem. My left hand was simply more physically capable than my right. It's no wonder though. Most of my teachers, most teaching materials and many posters on this forum keep insisting that playing the piano is purely a mental activity. It's all about imagining clouds, breathing deeply, relaxing your calves and adjusting the height of your chair. I know I'm exaggerating this last point, and that many pianists have more nuanced opinions. However, I still feel that too many people categorically refuse to acknowledge just how much pure physical aspects of the playing apparatus can and DO matter.
For the past year I've been practicing guitar this way for about 10-15 minutes every day, and my right hand is almost as flexible as my left now. Words can not describe how much easier it feels to play the piano now, compared to one year ago. My fingers feels like steel, as you so nicely put it. ...Most of my teachers, most teaching materials and many posters on this forum keep insisting that playing the piano is purely a mental activity.
No one argues that piano is really purely either mental or physical.
And although you investigated movements...I'm curious if you were aware or could even sense that when playing parallel scales that the hands/arms are working in opposite directions?
I could argue that the benefit from the backwards guitar approach was that it helped give your body sense the bilaterally, centralized, rhythmic coordination needed to do so because of having to switch the sensations involved.
Yes, it's mental. If your scales were uneven then hearing that, followed by straining to hear them as even, would have got the body working to solve that problem.
I've taught piano for over 20 years and never have got caught up over explaining the physical movements isolated from musical context for extended periods of time. Yes we can point out some issues but making a student focus on isolated physical movements can indeed be very distracting, confusing and not applicable in all instances. There is a danger thinking that one movement should be used for all similar cases in the exact same way, I find that technique adjusts a little for given situations and those who make up inflexible ideas on their physical playing can easily get trapped technically (or certainly do not know how to consider their technique within a musical context because they are overly caught up on the single mechanical idea of their movements).All my long term students understand their own two hands and what it means to play something with comfort and control, a softness in their hands. I develop this by gradually forming their playing ability, not forcing a model of perfection in their hands but constantly improving how they play bit by bit, allowing their hands to naturally understand it rather than brute force cut pasting ideas which generally produces parrot like students who can't think on their own. A strong axiom of mine when teaching technique is that it is ok to not do something correct at first because once you improve upon it is really felt as an improvement over what was previously done, it is understood not just accepted.
I did not mention anything about having a model of perfection or any inflexible technique or way of playing.
However, what my topic is all about is that one cannot ignore the physical component of piano playing as that is also important towards playing well for more difficult pieces.
Furthermore, I also emphasized on keeping the body physically healthy as well as being mentally healthy too.
Piano is not overwhelmingly a mental activity, and a fair amount of it involves the physical abilities as well, which requires your fingers, hands, wrists, and arms to be of a certain temperament in order to execute certain pieces well (e.g. not 90% mental, 10% physical but more around 50-60% mental, and 40-50% physical),
you would need to build not just physiological pathways, muscle memory (not fully reliant on that itself but partially), and be able to have the body respond to it (think about it this way:
If it was mostly or almost purely mental, then one would never need to sit behind a piano and just look at the score to be able to play, but that's not the case with most people, let alone even professionals.