Self-Studying. All your opinions are welcome. Please Help?

[reiyza]

Hello, I recently bought a clavinova 430 for myself this january. I want to start learning the piano again after 9 years of silence.
In the past my grandfather/teacher drilled me with Czerny op. 599 up to exercise no 45, Some alloys schmitt exercises and then he planned for me to study hanon,
but then he passed away before he could teach me more so my growth was stunted, hence, I stopped playing altogether.

So far the pieces that I know(not mastered but playable) are:
Beethoven's
-Fur Elise
-Sonata No. 14 - 1st Movement
Mozart's Piano Sonata No. 11 Third Movement(Turkish March)
Bach's Well Tampered Clavier Vol 1 - Prelude No. 1

I have been working on
Bach's 12 Little Preludes No. 1
Beethoven's Sonata No. 8 Op. 13 2nd Movement (Adagio Cantabile)

After these two, Maybe I'll go for:

Mozart's Piano Sonata K.281 (3rd Movement - Finale)?
or Chopin's Nocturne Op. 9 No. 2?
or Bach's Well Tampered Clavier Vol 1 or 2(I don't know if I'm ready)?
or should I continue my Czerny Op 599 studies?
or recommendations by you guys?

My Goals are(Impossible at this time).
-to play at least 1 chopin etude maybe 25 no. 5, 10 no. 3, 10 no. 4, 10 no. 12, or 25 no. 11.
-to play Kreisler-Rachmaninoff - Liebeslied
and ultimately play Chopin's Ballade no.1 in G minor.
By the way, I'm not that good of a sight reader but can manage one clef at a time.

I am also planning to have a teacher this february but I'm afraid he might say that my goals are impossible to reach.

any opinions guys? (sorry for the long post.)

[abbyes]

Too much Shigatsu wa kimi no uso eh ? haha

If you're going for Czerny, I do recommend op 299 ( school of velocity ). Start playing any etude from number 1 to 10. I recommend you nº7 and nº8.

Those pieces you're playing are fine for your level. Have you played Bach's Ana Magdalena's book ?

After you finish those pieces, you should go for what you want to play. I think that you're not ready for WTK yet, so go for that chopin's nocturne and/or Mozarts Sonata. You should also play scales, it will improve your technique, velocity and help you to play relaxed without tension.

As I said, you should play what you want. Anyway, I'll recommend you a few pieces :

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Those three pieces are not hard to learn. Easy to read and really beautiful pieces.

About your goals, having goals and motivations always helps you to improve faster and better. Just dont lose your way, keep practicing and your motivation up and I assure you that you will reach your goals. Chopin etude op 25 nº5, for example, is not as hard as the others. Kreisler-Rachmaninoff Liebesleid is hard, and so is Chopin's Ballade nº1 ; You just need time and motivation.

If your teacher says your goals are impossible to reach, leave that teacher and find another. It's 100% possible, it just will take time and effort. A few days ago I saw a guy in this forum who had been playing for 2 years and he's now trying to play the piece of his dreams "La campanella" ( which is one of the hardest etudes of  all classic music repertoire ) and he did it pretty good.

Dont give up ! As long as you dont, playing chopin's ballade and Kreisler is just a matter of time.

[reiyza]

That was a very fast reply! Thanks! I tried 1 of bach's fugues, due to my slow reading, I couldn't understand anything that I was playing. I'll continue to work on my current piece(s). Though I am having problems with the turns on pathetique.

Maybe I'll give the czerny 299 a try tomorrow, don't know how far they'll take me though because there's been a lot of negative comments regarding czerny exercises in this forum nowadays.

[mjames]

op. 25 no.5 is one of those "approachable" Chopin etudes. I think you can do well if you still remember the proper movements. Though I don' think it's uber hard like the Ballades or w/e, but it still requires knowledge of subtle movements. If a teacher really is impossible, just try and look for experienced people (in real life) to give you pointers and stuff. After 9 years of silence, it's very possible for you to learn bad habits instead of just getting back into the game easily.

Anyways, good luck.  

[mjames]

Maybe I'll give the czerny 299 a try tomorrow, don't know how far they'll take me though because there's been a lot of negative comments regarding czerny exercises in this forum nowadays.

I think it's because Czerny's exercise are very unmusical...pointless drill exercises in my opinion. If you're looking to overcome a specific technical problem look for musical pieces (not exercises) that focus on those challenges. For example if I wanted to tackle a 2vs3 poly-rhythm I wouldn't go for Czerny exercises, I'd go for some lovely Scriabin preludes, Debussy Arabesques, Chopin stuff and much more.

OR, if you're encountering a problem in a piece. You could by yourself or look up some exercises BASED on the passages you're having trouble on.

For example on one of the pieces I'm working on, Chopin's Op. 44, the editor (Cortot) made a bunch of useful technical drills based on the polonaise. It's very useful because not only are you learning an exercise that can alleviate you're problem, but you're also using them for stuff that won't bore you to death. I bet you can find similar editions (with practice drills) for Beethoven's pathetique sonata.

[reiyza]

op. 25 no.5 is one of those "approachable" Chopin etudes. I think you can do well if you still remember the proper movements. Though I don' think it's uber hard like the Ballades or w/e, but it still requires knowledge of subtle movements. If a teacher really is impossible, just try and look for experienced people (in real life) to give you pointers and stuff. After 9 years of silence, it's very possible for you to learn bad habits instead of just getting back into the game easily.

Anyways, good luck.  

Maybe I'll give it a go and see how far I'll get, but how would I know if the 25 no. 5 is too much for me? I developed a habit of muscling through difficult passages(broken into tiny segments and played hands separate). Your opinion was very encouraging, I was thinking the chopin etudes were out of my reach at my current level. I'm really excited.

[pianotv]

I tried 1 of bach's fugues, due to my slow reading, I couldn't understand anything that I was playing. I'll continue to work on my current piece(s).

You mentioned working on the Little Preludes. I would probably complete your study of those (learning at least several), then move on to the Inventions, then the Sinfonias, then finally the Fugues. That's what I had to do - Bach does not come naturally to me! When I teach I use those as stepping stones.

[reiyza]

You mentioned working on the Little Preludes. I would probably complete your study of those (learning at least several), then move on to the Inventions, then the Sinfonias, then finally the Fugues. That's what I had to do - Bach does not come naturally to me! When I teach I use those as stepping stones.

I am still working on 12 little preludes no 1. Can't seem to make it sound meaningful(well not yet anyways).

Suddenly I can perform my turns better in pathetique today than yesterday(magically happened?).

I just printed out czerny's op 299, no. 7 and no. 8 but I have yet to study them, I am still polishing up my piano sonata no 11. 3rd movement, and I just recently played through all of the sections of pathetique so I'm still in the process of learning the piece(No dynamics yet).

Maybe tomorrow will be a different journey for me.(maybe something magical will happen overnight I hope. )

I'll update this thread every now and then of my progress, though I'm too shy to post recordings of my piece(s) haha. Thanks guys. If I ever manage to play pathetique acceptably tomorrow I'll try to do a few bars of the etude 25 no. 5. Thanks guys for the continuous support.

[xdjuicebox]

Lol someone beat me to the Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso comment (omg so good); you forgot Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 btw haha

Anyway, self-studying is a bit difficult, I did it myself without a very good base for like 2 years, and then right now I'm self-studying since my teacher went on hiatus until I decide I need a teacher haha.

A couple things to keep in mind:

1. Read, read, read! You don't have a teacher who went through music school to get a degree, and the multitude of experience that they have. So you have to do your own research. The tricky part is that you have to do this with a grain of salt.
2. Learn proper technique/body motions. This will save you a lot of pain. During my first self-study period, I injured myself pretty badly. At the suggestion of louispodesta, I'm reading "What Every Pianist Needs to Know About that Body," by Dr. Thomas Mark. I'd pass this on as well.
3. Learn proper brain use, memorization skills, how to think about music
4. Listen to a ton of recordings to develop your "taste" in interpretations
5. Anything is possible! You just have to figure it out ^^

Good luck!

[reiyza]

Well, I'm back guys with another mind blowing question.

I have been doing my research extesnsively(as a self learner), and stumbled upon bernhard's posts regarding practicing and I was completely confused.

Bernhard stated(not the complete quote) that you should practice a piece in segments(this one I agree with), but one should practice segments hand separate and more than the intended speed. Then when the segment is perfect(hands separate and speed is more than the intended), you join hands together and play the segment in the max(or intended) speed you can perform?

I for one, is not a good sight reader(can only read 1 clef at a time, but if I do that, I can sight read and play simultaneously) so I tend to practice my pieces with hands together but playing almost very slowly(but still makes mistakes).

I have been practicing my pieces very slowly from the beginning, somewhere in this forum, it stated that practicing slowly will eventually lead you to a speed wall(if you practice fingerings wrong), whereas if you practice faster, you naturally let your hands explore which fingerings are most efficient and remember them(swaying from the intended fingerings of a piece).

Should I do the former or the latter?
 
Really confused right now. Can someone help me on this? Thanks

[piano6888]

Here is my experience for practicing and most of it is similar to bernhard's advice. I often practice very hard parts and segments hands separate and under tempo in order to learn the notes and finger positions (fingerings). Then after learning the notes and positions, I try to play it around half tempo or sometimes 2/3 tempo in order not to lose the rhythm or pulse.

In regards to the speed wall, yes it could happen if you play too slowly that you lose the shape of the phrase or melody so I would play slow enough to maintain control but still be able to be accurate. Then I repeat that many times and then up the tempo just a little bit until I feel comfortable, and of course after a while, closer to the marked tempo. If I make mistakes at a faster tempo, then I revert to the previous tempo or slower, and then repeat until I am solid enough to move on.

I also practice other segments as well so that I won't become stuck on just one part of the piece and then after fixing the trouble segments, I link up all the segments.

[reiyza]

Here is my experience for practicing and most of it is similar to bernhard's advice. I often practice very hard parts and segments hands separate and under tempo in order to learn the notes and finger positions (fingerings). Then after learning the notes and positions, I try to play it around half tempo or sometimes 2/3 tempo in order not to lose the rhythm or pulse.

In regards to the speed wall, yes it could happen if you play too slowly that you lose the shape of the phrase or melody so I would play slow enough to maintain control but still be able to be accurate. Then I repeat that many times and then up the tempo just a little bit until I feel comfortable, and of course after a while, closer to the marked tempo. If I make mistakes at a faster tempo, then I revert to the previous tempo or slower, and then repeat until I am solid enough to move on.

I also practice other segments as well so that I won't become stuck on just one part of the piece and then after fixing the trouble segments, I link up all the segments.

But if I were to follow bernhard's method for fingering advice(to allow for maximum speed) and play the piece fast and let my movements naturally create its own fingerings, won't that sway from the fingerings used in the score.?

I believe that fingerings given on a specific score allow for full speed playing most of the time.

Can someone enlighten me please?

[hardy_practice]

I believe that fingerings given on a specific score allow for full speed playing most of the time.

Can someone enlighten me please?

The fingering on any one score tend to be done by low paid lackeys of the publisher (unless the score says otherwise) - they don't expend much thought.

[lotal]

First of all you should decide with fingering when first approaching a chunk (segment). That has to be done just in few repeats to not ever rise the question again.  That is one reason why the chunk should be small – to get to the tempo fast (hands separate) and be sure that the fingering does work. The score fingering is a good general idea and you better not to change it, especially if you are a beginner, but one is allowed to change it if he knows better. Upon making the decision keep only to the fingering selected and never sway.
 
Whether to learn HS or HT depends on if you meet technical issues. HS is for technical difficulties, HT is for memorization (hand memory). These are two different tasks. Never do HT if you have not solved technical problems.

[reiyza]

The fingering on any one score tend to be done by low paid lackeys of the publisher (unless the score says otherwise) - they don't expend much thought.

Hm? But why would they bother suggesting the fingerings that way? Isn't editor's sheet music interpreted by real pianists themselves?

First of all you should decide with fingering when first approaching a chunk (segment). That has to be done just in few repeats to not ever rise the question again.  That is one reason why the chunk should be small – to get to the tempo fast (hands separate) and be sure that the fingering does work. The score fingering is a good general idea and you better not to change it, especially if you are a beginner, but one is allowed to change it if he knows better. Upon making the decision keep only to the fingering selected and never sway.
 
Whether to learn HS or HT depends on if you meet technical issues. HS is for technical difficulties, HT is for memorization (hand memory). These are two different tasks. Never do HT if you have not solved technical problems.

Thank you lotal for clearing up this one, and special thanks to your post on clustering bernhard's post, I'm using it as a reader's digest(very informative, I wish an admin would sticky it).

Now I have read somewhere in bernhard's advices that you should practice a scale relative to your piece.

I am now doing F minor(am I mistaken) scales for beethoven's pathetique sonata, and I am trying to use the "orthodox" fingering that bernhard suggested in one of his posts(the left hand goes 321, 321, 4321, 43).

here is the link.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=2429.msg21061#msg21061

But if I follow that rule, the 3rd finger falls into a black key, and the 4th finger will fall on a white key.

It is stated in the above link that
"The 3rd and 4th fingers of both hands should always play a black key (except of course in C major)."

"You will easily figure out the fingering for all scales if you always follow this principle (there is only one possible fingering if you prioritize the 4th finger on a black key and then the 3rd.) If you can’t figure it out ask again."

Can someone clarify me on this? Or should I follow the fingering bernhard suggested anyway?

Sorry for always asking questions but I have discovered many topics here wasn't known by my previous piano teacher. (Though, he can identify right from wrong, Still helped me bigtime. )

[reiyza]

I am now doing F minor(am I mistaken) scales for beethoven's pathetique sonata, and I am trying to use the "orthodox" fingering that bernhard suggested in one of his posts(the left hand goes 321, 321, 4321, 43).

Sorry A flat major(I was doing F minor for a different piece, I am doing several in a day. ) for pathetique.

[brogers70]

I am now doing F minor(am I mistaken) scales for beethoven's pathetique sonata, and I am trying to use the "orthodox" fingering that bernhard suggested in one of his posts(the left hand goes 321, 321, 4321, 43).

here is the link.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=2429.msg21061#msg21061

But if I follow that rule, the 3rd finger falls into a black key, and the 4th finger will fall on a white key.

It is stated in the above link that
"The 3rd and 4th fingers of both hands should always play a black key (except of course in C major)."

"You will easily figure out the fingering for all scales if you always follow this principle (there is only one possible fingering if you prioritize the 4th finger on a black key and then the 3rd.) If you can’t figure it out ask again."

Can someone clarify me on this? Or should I follow the fingering bernhard suggested anyway?

I use the fingering Bernhard suggests when doing scales just as exercises, but in specific pieces, the context in which the scale occurs may dictate a different fingering. Use what works for the specific passage you are working on. The point of doing scales as exercises is not to prepare you to play identical scales in pieces, it's to help you learn how to produce a good, even sound, with good, relaxed movements. You should not expect to finger every scale that occurs in a piece exactly as you finger your scales in daily exercises. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

[lotal]

Thank you lotal for clearing up this one, and special thanks to your post on clustering bernhard's post, I'm using it as a reader's digest(very informative, I wish an admin would sticky it).

Now I have read somewhere in bernhard's advices that you should practice a scale relative to your piece.

I am now doing F minor(am I mistaken) scales for beethoven's pathetique sonata, and I am trying to use the "orthodox" fingering that bernhard suggested in one of his posts(the left hand goes 321, 321, 4321, 43).

here is the link.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=2429.msg21061#msg21061

But if I follow that rule, the 3rd finger falls into a black key, and the 4th finger will fall on a white key.

It is stated in the above link that
"The 3rd and 4th fingers of both hands should always play a black key (except of course in C major)."

"You will easily figure out the fingering for all scales if you always follow this principle (there is only one possible fingering if you prioritize the 4th finger on a black key and then the 3rd.) If you can’t figure it out ask again."

Can someone clarify me on this? Or should I follow the fingering bernhard suggested anyway?

You are welcome, reiyza.

As for the scale, you gave the wrong link, there is nothing there about scales. I may suggest this one https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=2619.msg28311#msg28311 and there the pattern for Ab major is

Rh: 34 123 1234 123 123
Lh: 321  4321 321 4321 3

I do not observe what you described with the 3rd and 4th fingers.

And listen what brogers70 said about possibility of using quite another fingering in your sonata. Here is bernhard's link about that: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg104249.html#msg104249

[reiyza]

Thank you brogers, I have been using the fingering of bernhard in scales only though I practice my scales using bernhards fingering(and with my own variations of double 3rds and 4ths) with my eyes closed so I can focus only on the sound I produce and also for the familiarity with the layout of the keys per scale.
(though, I don't know if what I'm doing is good or bad)

The post of bernhard that I was talking about is in the last portion of that post in the link that i gave. That talk about priority of the 4th finger on black keys or 3rd finger on a black key made my head spin for a moment. But thank you lotal for providing another post that helped me understand it better.

As for my progress.
I am currently polishing up my turkish march into slightly performance level, there are still parts of it that I am having problems playing legato while at tempo. But I can play it in full if I want to,(though i'd still make mistakes).

As for my pathetique sonata, It is progressing smoothly per day(I expect it to be played in full in a week, then at performance at 2 weeks, or am I too ambitious?).

I have included the etude 25 no. 5 in my current studies, due to my left hand, the jumps on 10ths is giving me a hard time practicing it more than its intended tempo(hands separate using bernhard's rule regarding practicing). Though the right hand is progressing slow but smoothly. As mjames suggested, I found a cortott edition of the etudes and I am currently using it(very helpful drills indeed).

Though I can practice the tenths at tempo less than 168. I think i will find that playing the 25 no. 5 in tempo would be very difficult for a person with small hands(as I can barely reach 9ths) or am I incorrect?

Thanks guys for all the help. I will keep this post updated regularly.

[reiyza]

Oh and interestingly enough, while practicing my tenths(by using Combinations of forearm and wrist mvemet), I have found that I am much comfortable in playing the octaves in 25 no. 5, by using LH's finger no. 2 as a pivot point, i tried using 3 as a pivot point, but it was hard and my note accuracy suffers.

[reiyza]

I'll bump this since it's my thread anyway, Hate to start a new one.

As of 3 weeks of returning to the piano, my progress:
Fur elise (ready for performance)
Turkish March (Few parts still cleaning - expressive play not applied yet since It's mozart )
Pathetique 2nd Movement(played through the whole thing, will join sections maybe in february)
Etude 25. No 5(going well than expected about almost halfway through the piece, I'm working slowly so it doesn't get too sloppy when played, though still having problems with the 10ths)

I have yet to try the piece(s) suggested here. I have my hands full right now.

Please help me once again, I have stumbled upon a book of chang titled "fundamentals of piano practice" and I have been having problems with tremolos and (RH)4-5 trills(since I'm going to target te completion of the moonlight and pathetique sonata maybe 1-2 years time). Thing is, chang stated "to do infinite tremolos, hands should be relaxed and you should feel the stress draining out while you play"

I have been trying his "parralel set" exercises and my left hand seems to be doing the reverse. (stress build up.). But the right hands seems fine doing prolonged tremolos but still gets fatigue after awhile.

My question Is it really possible to play tremolos with a relaxed hand indefinitely.
Does practicing with tremolos(3-5m hand separate sesessions) every day improve it like with trills?