Limits of an adult beginner.

[yrahj]

I have read everywhere that its very tough to become proficient at the piano if you start later than maybe 13 , I know one can become very good with regular practice and drive but what is the limit one should know so as to not disappoint yourself. As in is it possible and probable that an adult learner would one day be able to play Chopins Ballade in G minor or the Hungarian Rhapsody no . 2 well in say 10 years ?
(As a bit of a background i am 17 now and had about 4 years of serious training where I passed grade 5 of keyboard Trinity exams(apparently they are wayyyyyy easier than the piano ones) and about a couple of years of guitar and brass(euphonium and baritone) and a year of violin which was very informal(and useless) but as for the Piano I am a total beginner and have rarely touched a piano.So i assume I fall into the adult beginner class.Since i will start Med school next year i would have about 3-4 hours of practice time and need to limit my expectations so as not to disappoint myself.I have found a good reliable teacher and will soon be buying a piano to practice on so that should not be a problem.)
 

[brogers70]

I don't think there's a good answer. It's probably not possible to make a career as a concert pianist starting so late, but that does not mean that you cannot reach the point of playing great substantial music well enough to enjoy it and communicate it to your friends, maybe even do some local performing, if you live in a small pond. Lots of adult beginners don't persist, or have limited goals (play Traumerei for my wife's birthday, or some such). But if you have a good teacher and several hours a day to practice, there's no reason you should not be able to play substantial, difficult music. I started at 40, now, at 57, I play a bunch of the Preludes and Fugues from WTC I, 5 of the Beethoven sonatas, including Pastorale, Schubert Impromptus, a couple of Chopin Nocturnes, Mozart and Haydn sonatas.

I'd say just go for it and enjoy the process of learning, without worrying too much about Chopin Ballades - you might well get to that point, but even if you don't, there's plenty of great music to play that's not as hard as the Ballades. You really have nothing to lose. Even learning just a little bit will change the way you listen to great pianists.

[hardy_practice]

It's mostly about how good a teacher your teacher is.

[indianajo]

Don't expect to get paid.  The current tyrant of the airwaves became famous by playing a concerto with a major city symphony at age 11.  
You probably won't grow a bump on your brain the way kids do (see stories about Einstein's brain and the violin bump).  but you can grow neuron connections into your nineties.
I'm playing things in my sixties that students at university play at their master's recitals. however, It takes me years instead of weeks to learn them.  And I did study piano from age 8 to 15 up to what is now probably grade 6 or 7.  I started Beethoven Pathetique sonata, then the teacher took it away from me, so I was a bit below that level when I quit.
Don't neglect time spent on exercises for strictly ear candy.  Piano requires some physical skills involving fingers 3,4,5, unnatural stretches, and finger crossovers.  Concentrating on these skills alone in exercises builds capability faster than the trickles of stress you get from pleasant music.  See your teacher, but I've progressed through Schmitt, Edna Mae Berman, scales, then Czerny.  I now do Scott Joplin rags nightly to keep up the 3,4,5 strength at an age where every muscle that is not used deteriorates.  In future perhaps, arpeggios. 
Piano is a fun hobby requiring no travel, no approval of a social group, no mind or mood altering chemicals. It requires a room with some privacy, which I've been able to afford since age 32. I don't get paid, but I do get out and perform at meals for the homeless, which is gaining me some notoriety, if not actual applause. Next challenge, maybe, old age care homes! By all means pursue the piano hobby it if you find it fun.  

[bronnestam]

I know a person who started to play seriously at the age of 17 - having dabbled a bit, unseriously, earlier - and now is on h** way to become a professional concert pianist. Anything is possible.

As you write that you are going to Med school I assume you are not planning to be a pianist as a profession. I am sure you can learn the pieces you mention; I have no idea how long this will take you though. Maybe shorter, maybe longer than 10 years from now - it all depends on how much devotion you eventually will be able to put in your piano training.

I'd say, just go with the flow and work. Don't worry so much. If you expect someone to shout "oh, you are a genious!" one day because of your fast progress and extraordinary talent, then skip it. But don't let any wiseguy tell you what is possible and what is not either. The trick is simply to believe in yourself, not to ask for approval, not giving up - just work on, the natural way.

Either you will find, one day, that you can play what you dreamed of playing and even more. Or, you look back with a shrug and say "so - I changed my mind". And that will be perfectly fine too.

It is not about which age you started playing. This isn't olympic gymnastics. Don't listen to the garbage people say about brain plasticity, finger dexterity  and other BS, you will find that none of them is an expert anyway. You can learn and develop all your life ... if you believe you can.
It is not, actually, about practicing so-and-so many hours a day, a week, so-and-so many years. What really matters is that you practice in a wise and effective way, humbly listen to your teachers, and that you hang on. If you love piano playing enough, you will get wherever you want to go. So, your only real limitation is your own enthusiasm for piano playing. (Not for money, fame nor pleasing anyone else, but for piano playing.) 

You must also be slightly fanatic about going to concerts, listening to recordings, studying literature, talking to other students, watching videos, eating, living, breathing piano music. You have got a teacher and that is good - don't hesitate, when you have advanced, to also find "guest teachers". Every new person you meet will give you new insights, no matter if they are piano super stars or beginners.

For example, if you want to be able to play the Hungarian Rhapsody 2 (I want that too) you can start studying it long before you can really start playing it. You can listen to it until you know every little note of it. You can use it for analyzing, theory studies, whatever. You might very well be able to play little snippets of it. And with this approach you will soon discover what you need to learn and practice. After all, exercises are so much more fun to do if you know exactly WHY you do them. I think one of the most common mistakes piano students do, is that they do tons of exercises without understanding the point with them. They just play their scales and their Hanons or whatever, for hours and hours and years, and all they develop is absentmindness and sometimes an arrogant attitude of "I must be such a good pianist now, because I have played so many scales!"

If you forget about yourself when you play, including worries about how good you are and how good you will be, or how good someone else will think you are or how long it "should" take to learn this and that, if you just immense yourself in piano playing and get lost in the moment, then I'm sure that you can go as far as you will ever want. I wish you the best of luck.

[ahpahpah]

. I am sure you can learn the pieces you mention; I have no idea how long this will take you though. Maybe shorter, maybe longer than 10 years from now - it all depends on how much devotion you eventually will be able to put in your piano training.

This! The pieces are hard, but they're not impossible goals. Tell your teacher what your goals are and then maybe she can build you up to those pieces by assigning ones that focus on simpler/easier version of the technical difficulties.

I think that's what Bernard does (used to?).

[louispodesta]

I have read everywhere that its very tough to become proficient at the piano if you start later than maybe 13 , I know one can become very good with regular practice and drive but what is the limit one should know so as to not disappoint yourself. As in is it possible and probable that an adult learner would one day be able to play Chopins Ballade in G minor or the Hungarian Rhapsody no . 2 well in say 10 years ?
(As a bit of a background i am 17 now and had about 4 years of serious training where I passed grade 5 of keyboard Trinity exams(apparently they are wayyyyyy easier than the piano ones) and about a couple of years of guitar and brass(euphonium and baritone) and a year of violin which was very informal(and useless) but as for the Piano I am a total beginner and have rarely touched a piano.So i assume I fall into the adult beginner class.Since i will start Med school next year i would have about 3-4 hours of practice time and need to limit my expectations so as not to disappoint myself.I have found a good reliable teacher and will soon be buying a piano to practice on so that should not be a problem.)
 

At the age of 64, with semi-horrific physical problems, I can speak directly to your situation.  I wasted a lot of time in my youth, and I quit time after time.  Eventually, I stumbled and struggled to come back to the piano at age 21.

Then, after major failure, I eventually got my degree at the age of 31.  Once again, ten years ago, I seriously commited myself to the piano.  I now play concert level repertoire.

So, if you want to learn how to play the piano at a very high level, and not be brain-washed by all the hype you have been immersed in (as of millions of students before you have), then please contact me by PM, and I will be glad to advise you on whatever you wish.

[immortalbeloved]

I started at 20 and am now 23. I believe that I will be able to play the songs I want to play and will not quit until I can do. Anyone who does not agree with me is irrelevant to my goals and I will ignore them. You, op, should have a similar mindsets regardless of what people may say about you for doing so.

If you want to you can achieve it, especially with the piano. Effort and hard work pays off here, unlike unrealistic goals. Now, there are unrealistic goals in the piano, but learning the famous ballad of Chopin is not one of those.

[outin]

There are limits to an adult beginner. But there are also limits to most children. Virtuoso music was written for virtuosos and not everybody can become one, no matter how early they start.

The biggest issue for adult beginners is how to find the time, energy and motivation to go through all the stages required for most of us to get to the level of advanced music. Most people quit or at least stop trying to advance at the earlier stages because it's hard. It can take years to develope proper control over the playing mechanism (physical and mental). But most of it is not related to age at all. The things that actually are related to age are things like physical condition and memory. They often start to deteriorate with age. But this starts a lot later than 17, so nothing for you to worry about.

I've noticed that many people who did start as kids tend to downplay the significance of their early years and claim it's all about having a good teacher and knowing how to practice right from the start. IMO That's BS unless you happen to be one of those few who are naturals, can play Chopin etudes and produce beautiful sound at age 9. They probably could do the same in a few years even when starting later. Everyone else has to suffer through years of practice with not sounding so good and playing less demanding music. No-one really expects a 6 year old to sound great and they will receive praise for their small steps of progress, boosting confidence. But when you start as a mature adult, it's much more difficult to expose your playing, not sounding any better than all those 6 year olds and not playing "real important repertoire" yet. If you can live through that stage then you have a good chance to succeed.

When I started playing (at 45) I didn't realize what it takes so I thought I would just get a good teacher and quickly get to some advanced pieces I wanted to play. After 2 years it seemed that I simply could never play those, no matter how long and hard I worked. After 4 years I was beginning to see possibilities again. In 10 years? Who knows...I don't worry about that so much, since there are so many great pieces to work on right now.

[yrahj]

Thank you for the wonderful and elaborate answers everyone!!(To be honest I thought the question  was too stupid and i would end up making a fool of myself online )
Also as many of you have pointed out i have no intention of being paid for it(Even if i did i know it was not possible).I most definitely want to play exclusively for myself and maybe my family.There was a time where i wanted to impress people and so hopped on the bandwagon and started guitar classes but i guess i grew up so i certainly do not have any motivation to impress anyone , its just for me . All your answers give me hope that maybe i can someday play chopins ballades.
And bronnestan , i actually do a few of the things you mentioned! I have listened to those pieces to death(and still do almost everyday) and can probably hum the whole piece by memory. I also liked the Moonlight Sonata 1st movement and fur elise and successfully tried and played it on my keyboard.It was veryy far from good but i got the notes right and i guess thats all you can do on plastic.As for the practice regime since i play the violin i do realise now that excercies have to meaningful and not robotic , thanks for pointing that out!!I think i would be able to give 3.5 hours  everyday for practice and maybe more on holidays.Also for practice how important is it to have an acoustic piano than a digital one assuming i still get to play an acoustic regularly at my classes?.Thank you again all for all your wonderful advice .
 

[irrational]

My 2c as well.

I started at 37-ish with no idea of where the difficult music lies or what I wanted.
Now I am approaching the final grades and I do not know remotely enough. My drive is just increasing and I don't feel limited except perhaps by my musicality. But then I am not a born musician! The pieces you mention are certainly very attainable in 10 years.

In my opinion age should not be a limiting factor.
I set aside 10-12 years to get to performer's level pieces and I think I can get there as I am now at 6 years. and playing hard grade 7 pieces this year.

I agree with what people said here.
The big issue is time. I feel I need 2-3 hours a day to make fast progress and I just don't have that time, but I am not chasing anything, so its ok. 1-1.5 hours seem to work out ok for now.
Physically I am ok, but there is a definite lack of dexterity in my fingers and its hard to really keep my wrists relaxed. So it takes longer to get speed and smooth tone for instance and my back starts to hurt after an hour.
I can't get enough of listening to piano music. My teacher agrees that this is very important in helping understand music. She laments that students don't listen enough.
I also go to concerts a lot.

I think if you have the dedication and drive you can certainly attain your goals easily. Jut realise that this is not a 2 year in and out and make peace that its going to take time and enjoy it.

As for the instrument. I personally will always advocate a piano over a keyboard. Their sound and feel is just different. I find I don't enjoy the music I make on a keyboard. And I like to practice what I will play. That said, you can practice on a keyboard, but I think a reasonable piano is cheaper than a good enough keyboard and when you get better a keyboard can't do what you want. The mechanical feel of the keys is part of what makes a piano such a tactile instrument and it also inspires me to make colours and experiment with touch etc. I don't think a keyboard can do that well.

[piano6888]

I second what brogers said. While you might not be able to make a career or become a world re-known concert pianist, you are still able to accomplish great works. I also think the others have already beat me to it.

This is coming from someone who started piano at age 8 and played piano for over 15 years (along with 9 years of formal lessons, 2 of which were at the conservatory). I now play piano as a hobby and most likely will be as I'm a graduate student pursuing a degree in software engineering and hoping to find a secure job to live comfortably.

[outin]

Also for practice how important is it to have an acoustic piano than a digital one assuming i still get to play an acoustic regularly at my classes? 

I'd say it's not so important whether you practice on a high quality digital or acoustic for learning in the earlier stages, as long as you do not practice too much with headphones and with low volume. Yet what makes an acoustic a must for me is the enjoyment of practicing. There's nothing better than to practice on an proper acoustic piano (except to practice on a lovely grand which I don't own yet). I practice on my digital for practical reasons and because for certain things it has a better touch than my stiff upright, but it's never the same for my ears.

Things that will be important when you eventually start playing things like the Ballade (pedalling and handling the tone for example) are not the same on a digital. They would not be the same on a cheap upright either.  I'd say there's no hurry upgrade to an acoustic unless you really crave for one. And usually better to wait until you can get something really nice and really know what kind of touch and tone you prefer. I would not buy my present piano today and it was not cheap...

[bronnestam]

I agree with outin. Actually I recommend a high quality digital for you in the beginning - NOT a low quality digital, mind you, because they are no fun to play.
As a beginner, you often like to have privacy when you practice, because you don't exactly sound like a concert pianist in the beginning ... and people who do not play the piano themselves have very little understanding for the complicated process of learning. Therefore it is recommendable to have the headphone utility. You can also use the digital for convenient recording of yourself, and the piano is always perfectly tuned.

Then, of course, you will eventually need some flight hours with an acoustic as well, because there is a slightly different feeling ... although not THAT dramatical if you use a real good digital. But consider that you might play on digitals 90 % of your time anyway, as you don't plan to become a concert pianist performing on big Steinway Concert D:s ...
 
But the best way is to visit piano dealers and try different models out. Perhaps you will find that you just "have" to have an acoustic, then all right. Just avoid the cheapest digitals. I bought myself a Clavinova in the beginning of the 90's, a very good model by then but now considered ancient. When I decided to pick up piano playing for real some 5 years ago, I tried to practice a lot, but I soon got very tired of my old Clavinova friend. So I bought a new one, a digital baby grand which sounds terrific, looks terrific and has real good action. And since then I have been playing like crazy.  So, considering that you will spend thousands of hours at the piano, be sure to choose a model which you like. The latest Clavinova model, CLP 585, even has wooden keys and a real nice touch.

[yrahj]

@bronnestam Ok so a digital it is, but is it necessary to get the top of the line CLP ? My plan was to get the CLP 330m and when i am good enough to understand the difference in acoustic and digital to get a stienway model o or maybe a model b(if i am lucky). Or should i just buy the best CLP and wait for a decade to get an actual acoustic ?

[bronnestam]

I really cannot tell. You have to try the different models out - there are many models that cost less than those I suggest, and still they are very suitable for a beginner. Just don't by a "toy". Good action, good pedal and 88 keys is a must. The cheaper models have plastic feeling, bad action and a metallic sound that will be torture in long terms.

Just as a reference - please do try the very best pianos out as well! Get yourself to showrooms which feature the best concert grands and try them out! Then you will know what to strive for. (Tip: if you want to play a little improvisation in the showroom without creating dreadful effects,  play the black keys only. But you probably know that already as you have studied keyboard.)
The dealers in the showrooms should be able to give you valuable tips, if they are true professionals.

Also keep in mind that even if you buy a wonderful acoustic model later on, you will most likely keep your digital somewhere, because there will be plenty of moments when you still need to play with headphones and all that. Even the best concert pianists have digitals at home, be sure. So why not invest in a good model from the beginning? Maybe not with ALL the bells and whistles you can come up with, but still a quality instrument.  

Taste may vary and your taste is what counts. It is your piano.

[bernadette60614]

There is a great documentary titled "They Came to Play", about amateurs who compete in the Van Cliburn piano competition. All of these competitors do not earn their living through playing their piano. Some of them have studied piano extensively, others appear to be more of the adult beginners (or rebounders, as I think of them/us).  However, each one profiled has a deep relationship with the piano.

I think that a good goal is to make piano an integral part of your life for the rest of your life rather than measuring yourself against a level or a set of pieces.

From that perspective, I think the enjoyment one can derive from that life long relationship is limitless.

[reiyza]

@bronnestam Ok so a digital it is, but is it necessary to get the top of the line CLP ? My plan was to get the CLP 330m and when i am good enough to understand the difference in acoustic and digital to get a stienway model o or maybe a model b(if i am lucky). Or should i just buy the best CLP and wait for a decade to get an actual acoustic ?

I think the CLPs have recorded samples of a grand piano(real grand expression according to yamaha manuals), though it's digital, it sounds really really good(depending on what model you're getting, I have 430 and I love the sound). The latest CLP series(including the 330) have GH3 action, it's heavy(great for beginning students, but not so much if you're planning to perform on grands), but as many members of this forum stated, "digitals has no/limited of replicating the feel of acoustic ones". But hey, any piano is still better than none? Right?

But consider this, you're already looking at an expensive model digital piano, maybe you could go for a well maintained second hand acoustic upright in the same price margins? If not, then by all means, go for what you want since i have read in this forums that, "a good digital will be better than an old acoustic or poor quality acoustic uprights."

In my opinion, You should try other brands as well, some members prefer kawai over yamaha due to good action at much affordable prices, same with roland. But stay away from casio, I have been playing in my 430 for weeks then I tried a casio privia in a music store recently, and the action was Just too light, it felt like I was banging on the keys.

Hope this helps you. Good Luck.

[keypeg]

...You probably won't grow a bump on your brain the way kids do (see stories about Einstein's brain and the violin bump).  but you can grow neuron connections into your nineties. ....

I got a book about the brain as a Christmas present.  It actually refers to that "violin bump" which is omega-shaped, and pianists have two of them.  But it's in a chapter on neuroplasticity and in the same chapter he writes about London taxi drivers who must memorize and incredible amount of information, internalizing a map of London, routes etc.  There is a major physical change to the brains of those adult taxi drivers who manage the task and pass.