Conversation with teacher regarding etudes.

[immortalbeloved]

Hey everyone,

So, perhaps a little introduction on me: I started piano at 21/22 and have had real lessons for a year. I had six months with one and 8 with another ( so I guess for a year and more then)

Well, this new teacher is amazing. She introduced me to jazz, a life changer, even while telling her I only cared for classical. She then introduced me to pop, even while I told her I only wanted to focus on classical and jazz--another life changer!.

Well, eventually, I forget how, but a conversation on etudes emerged. I told her that I really wanted to learn them but she seemed really hesitant to introduce me to them.  The issue of etudes came up again recently.

Her answer first was similar to last time--only students interested in Royal Conservatory usually take it up, I said ''maybe one day I would''. She then asked me why did I want to learn etudes and I said ''because of Chopin and Liszt'' and she said okay but that is like Grade 10 AR stuff--and I said well I have to begin somewhere. But then we got to the real issue. As I had mentioned, she intorudced me to Jazz and popnall this on top of classical and technique (Scales etc).

She said that her fear was that if I have four different items to focus on and then add etudes that I will be stretched so thin to my own disadvantage. That if I really wanted etudes I will have to give up either jazz or pop--something I cant see myself doing. I told her that I respected this and will maybe think because the joy jazz and pop give me is impossible to describe.

I dont' know if I will even bring it up again. She told me that I am improving rapidly and so quickly that she is afraid if I have five items a week to study I will not have the important core. And that I have to think about my goals as well. The core was key but having too much would, or could, ruin that.

I don't know. I played for my sister the theme from Pocohontos my teacher gave And my sister screamed in joy--and so I did too. Who would I play etudes for? Not my sister. Unless I was doing something from Liszt just to show of.

An unknown in my piano life. I am learning this week Diabeli's F major sonatina and am in love with it as a piece.

[xdjuicebox]

Well learning études will give you skills that can enrich the rest of your playing...for example, playing Chopin Op. 10 No. 5 allows me to use some of those textures in my improv for a cool effect

They don't have to be separate, you're still playing pianonat the end of the day

[theholygideons]

If you're talking about the act of playing a classical versus jazz piece, there is not much difference in terms of technique, only that perhaps jazz requires a different touch. That being said, I think by playing etudes, your technique would improve far greater and that would serve as a foundation to play any kind of music, including jazz or pop, in the future. I think it also applies to music theory as well, as if you learn western classical music harmony, it will be easier to transition to other genres as well.

I think your teacher is using jazz and pop as a bargaining ploy, so that she will have more control over you by teaching to her strengths as opposed to allowing you to make your own choices and perhaps be dissatisfied of her teaching. (Yes, I am very cynical)

[pianocat3]

Those etudes are very hard. Guessing here, but based on how long you have played, it will probably be some time before you would be able to play them at tempo or maybe even get through them. I think I am probably further along than you, and I worked on Chopin's Revolutionary Etude. I could play it, but not well, and not at tempo, not even close. It was intended as a stretch by my teacher. I have to admit, music within my abilities looks so much easier now!!! There are so many beautiful pieces easier than these etudes. Look for those, ask for suggestions on here, and in a few months or a year or two or longer depending on how you move along, then these etudes will be appropriate.

 I don't understand what your teacher tells you though. I told my teacher I only ever intended to play (voilunteer) at nursing homes, and she is teaching me classical and playing from lead sheets both. I am mystified by your teacher, honestly. There are people who play classical for personal enjoyment, or small time performances like play at weddings or at the local fancy hospital etc. Hopefully someone who knows more than me will pipe in. I would say I am probably early advanced. Just out of method books sort of progress, is where I am. It may be you are asking too soon, or maybe your teacher is not feeling qualified.  Maybe she is a pro who plays jazz, rather than primarily classical, for example. I noticed Billy Joel wrote some classical type music and he had a classical pianist play it because he could not do it well.

[immortalbeloved]

I think your teacher is using jazz and pop as a bargaining ploy, so that she will have more control over you by teaching to her strengths as opposed to allowing you to make your own choices and perhaps be dissatisfied of her teaching. (Yes, I am very cynical)

Hey,

Interesting that you mention that. My teacher told me her whole life she only learnt classical, but when she saw other pianists who could play classical, Jazz and Pop, she realized how well rounded they were verses her. And because she laments not being taught a wide variety of styles, she wants to make sure she never makes that mistake with her students.

[theholygideons]

If you can improvise in a Lisztian style, you for sure can play pop and jazz, but the converse is less true. You still need to get your priorities straight. Western classical music should form the foundation from which you can branch outwards. It should be 70% classical, and 30% jazz or some similar ratio (pop music is just a mixture of classical and jazz), and from what you previously said, your focus is on classical music, anyhow.

[immortalbeloved]

If you can improvise in a Lisztian style, you for sure can play pop and jazz, but the converse is less true. You still need to get your priorities straight. Western classical music should form the foundation from which you can branch outwards. It should be 70% classical, and 30% jazz or some similar ratio (pop music is just a mixture of classical and jazz), and from what you previously said, your focus is on classical music, anyhow.

That is so interesting. Okay, well, can etudes fall under that 70 number or is it separate? My teachers whole point is that with jazz and pop, adding etudes to my classical song list is just too much.

This week for exmple I have the following: three classical, one pop, one jazz, and two pages of theory in minor scales. I should have two jazz, but I am not practising the other because the first is causing me so much trouble.

[theholygideons]

That is so interesting. Okay, well, can etudes fall under that 70 number or is it separate? My teachers whole point is that with jazz and pop, adding etudes to my classical song list is just too much.

This week for exmple I have the following: three classical, one pop, one jazz, and two pages of theory in minor scales. I should have two jazz, but I am not practising the other because the first is causing me so much trouble.

unless you're playing jazz etudes... otherwise just consider them as part of your classical training.

Them minor scales is bullshit. Just buy yourself a book on music theory (not the ones that the music board offers, but an actual textbook on music theory) and learn it. Your teacher is splitting things up into smaller sections and scraping in the megabucks as a result. (I am truly cynical)

[1piano4joe]

Hi immortalbeloved,

If your goal is to be well rounded then that would require a plan that includes pieces in all 24 keys, many different styles and genres, and a variety of composers.

Rotation is the key element needed.

If one were to learn one piece in each key that would mean learning 24 pieces, right? This is not done simultaneously but spread out over the course of a year.

Bach is awesome but what about Beethoven, Handel, Hassler, Mozart, etc, etc, etc...There are thousands of them. I've been playing over 10 years and barely have scratched the surface!

I suggest the following for your consideration:

1 baroque piece, 1 classical piece, 1 anything else and 1 etude.

That's it. No big secret. No mystery.

Those 4 pieces could be in 4 different keys couldn't they? That's 2-4 weeks worth of study depending on practice time and methods.

Just keep mixing it up.

For example:

1. Bach this month then Handel next month for your Baroque then...
2. Beethoven this month and then Mozart next month for your classical then...
3. Jazz then Pop then Latin then...
4. Etudes in 2nds then 3rds then 4ths, then wrist staccato then...

Works for me anyway, Joe.

[outin]

Listen to your teacher, I'd say. You have taken lessons for a year or so? You are no way near tackling any of the etudes of Chopin and liszt. The etudes that would be appropriate for you would be something pretty boring. Much nicer to learn the basic techniques from suitable repertoire...

There are two kinds of etudes: Concert etudes which are great pieces of music. Those you should leave for later, when you already are a skillful pianist. Then there are etudes that are exercises on some technique, but have little musical value. They can be useful in some cases, but IMO one can learn all they can offfer just by studying a varied repertoire. Something like a Diabelli sonatina is just as good as some etude for you now

Also a little piece of warning:
Do not listen too much to advice from unknowns on an internet forum, me included:) Your teacher is somewhat responsible of your progress and has a good incentive to sensibly advance your progress. Here you might run into there types: 1. Near beginners who think they know how to skip some of the work on the early stages and try to talk you into silly things that contradict with what your teacher says. 2. Advanced pianists who look at your situation from a perspective of someone who did what you are trying to do decade ago and alredy forgot how long they spent on doing things that now seem irrelevant to them.

[theholygideons]

Also a little piece of warning:
...
Here you might run into there types:...2. Advanced pianists who look at your situation from a perspective of someone who did what you are trying to do decade ago and alredy forgot how long they spent on doing things that now seem irrelevant to them.

Just to let you know, OP, I was giving genuine advice.

[outin]

Just to let you know, OP, I was giving genuine advice.

I have no doubt everyone is genuine in their advice and are trying to be helpful. The question is if it's actually useful for someone else in the long run...

[mjames]

lol it's only been a year since you started playing. just chill out, enjoy, and worry about the things that are on your level.

[pianocat3]

It is certainly true that no one here is listening to your playing. My guess was based on one year playing and you are doing sonatinas, not sonatas.  I think it may be more than a couple years to get to chopin or liszt etudes, depending on your practice time, native ability and efficient practice. Some people on piano street say they practice 3 or 4 hours a day (!!) I wonder how they find time to wash dishes and walk the dog, lol! I do 1 to 1 1/2 hours a day. From what I read, about 45 minutes or more is good at your level, approximately.

 If you go to the university of Iowa piano pedagogy channel on YouTube, there are so many worthy pieces to play! Plus you get to hear an excellent pianist do right by them.

So my teacher says learning to play pop (or jazz, but she isn't into jazz) or Christmas carols or whatever, you really learn your chords, which helps with playing classical. I have to say it helped me very much.

Plus she says being able to do that skill (play off lead sheets) is very marketable, if you wanted to do music as an occupation or side job. Most wonderful piano players will not ever be concert pianists. More likely play as accompanist to a singer, or be an educator, in a country music band or whatever. Play Christmas carols at a party. Fill in when the church pianist or organist is sick. She also says many musicians are poor sight readers and compensate by memorizing more. Also, being skilled at transposing to another key is important for little jobs. That way you can accompany a singer and keep the music in their range.

So that was some miscellaneous commentary. I agree with outin. It is hard to remember back, and few of us here took up piano as an adult, I think. More commonly, they returned to piano as an adult. Adults more likely work harder (better work habits than kids, on average) but have more responsibilities interfering with practice time. Your piano teacher has seen how you are progressing.

[immortalbeloved]

All of you really have wonderful points, and I truly believe you were, and are, all genuine. A very quick note, I of course know Liszt and Chopin are far away, but as I told my teacher, I have to start somewhere. I don't even want to tackle their etudes for years, but if what I am reading here so far is correct, I don't even really need to study level 1-3 etudes to tackle the higher level ones--so that is a slight relief.


I understand some of the points here about not listening to unknown internet users, but I was just so surprised that she, my teacher, had never intended on introducing me to etudes. That was the rub.

The bloody curse is that I started so late in life. It is not that I had a chance and declined to, it is that I just found this love recently.

[outin]

When such thoughts enter my mind I just conclude that I wasn't ready. It only occurred to me by accident that I wanted to study piano but it happened at a time when it was easily arranged.  I guess I am lucky it happened before I was even older. Btw. I was twice your age 

[dcstudio]

 but I was just so surprised that she, my teacher, had never intended on introducing me to etudes. That was the rub.

.

I get the feeling that you are taking that personally and in all likelihood it has nothing whatsoever to do with you.   Your teacher may have an issue with those etudes from her personal experience. You mentioned something about her not wanting to make the same mistakes with her students.  'ask her if she plays the Chopin etudes or if she did at one time.  they were forced on all of us back in the day... this could be her rebellion.. Lol or whatever

[kawai_cs]

Some people on piano street say they practice 3 or 4 hours a day (!!) I wonder how they find time to wash dishes and walk the dog, lol!

Well, we have dishwashers and cats 

[louispodesta]

Hey everyone,

So, perhaps a little introduction on me: I started piano at 21/22 and have had real lessons for a year. I had six months with one and 8 with another ( so I guess for a year and more then)

Well, this new teacher is amazing. She introduced me to jazz, a life changer, even while telling her I only cared for classical. She then introduced me to pop, even while I told her I only wanted to focus on classical and jazz--another life changer!.

Well, eventually, I forget how, but a conversation on etudes emerged. I told her that I really wanted to learn them but she seemed really hesitant to introduce me to them.  The issue of etudes came up again recently.

Her answer first was similar to last time--only students interested in Royal Conservatory usually take it up, I said ''maybe one day I would''. She then asked me why did I want to learn etudes and I said ''because of Chopin and Liszt'' and she said okay but that is like Grade 10 AR stuff--and I said well I have to begin somewhere. But then we got to the real issue. As I had mentioned, she intorudced me to Jazz and popnall this on top of classical and technique (Scales etc).

She said that her fear was that if I have four different items to focus on and then add etudes that I will be stretched so thin to my own disadvantage. That if I really wanted etudes I will have to give up either jazz or pop--something I cant see myself doing. I told her that I respected this and will maybe think because the joy jazz and pop give me is impossible to describe.

I dont' know if I will even bring it up again. She told me that I am improving rapidly and so quickly that she is afraid if I have five items a week to study I will not have the important core. And that I have to think about my goals as well. The core was key but having too much would, or could, ruin that.

I don't know. I played for my sister the theme from Pocohontos my teacher gave And my sister screamed in joy--and so I did too. Who would I play etudes for? Not my sister. Unless I was doing something from Liszt just to show of.

An unknown in my piano life. I am learning this week Diabeli's F major sonatina and am in love with it as a piece.

Please contact me by PM.  I have lived your life, and I am 64 years old.

[dcstudio]

   allrighty-then

[outin]

I get the feeling that you are taking that personally and in all likelihood it has nothing whatsoever to do with you.   Your teacher may have an issue with those etudes from her personal experience. You mentioned something about her not wanting to make the same mistakes with her students.  'ask her if she plays the Chopin etudes or if she did at one time.  they were forced on all of us back in the day... this could be her rebellion.. Lol or whatever

Or it's just what she said: No need to add extra pieces to his already full table just for the sake of playing etudes. It certainly won't help to op to make him question his teacher's motives (greed or incompetence) when the op is obviously progressing  well repertoire wise and also enjoying what he is doing...

[outin]

  I have lived your life, and I am 64 years old.

I rest my case...

[immortalbeloved]

Well, speaking of rubs:

I just got a message from my teacher saying ''not to worry'' we will go after etudes in the future. Now, what does this ''future'' mean, I cannot say. Well, until then, back to Diabeli's F major sontina, Dream Catcher, Clementi op 36 .2 third movement, a Whole New World, and some terribly difficult Rag Tag song call Pine Cone----but no etudes.

[chopinlover01]

Don't worry about etudes. The really valuable ones are best saved until you can tackle the technical problems with a solid plan on how to deal with them.

[outin]

Well, speaking of rubs:

I just got a message from my teacher saying ''not to worry'' we will go after etudes in the future. Now, what does this ''future'' mean, I cannot say. Well, until then, back to Diabeli's F major sontina, Dream Catcher, Clementi op 36 .2 third movement, a Whole New World, and some terribly difficult Rag Tag song call Pine Cone----but no etudes.

Your teacher must have thought your question odd first...you didn't seem to really understand what etudes are and what's the point of studying them. Other pieces can be used as "etudes", a means to study a certain aspect of playing. As an example, I have trouble with RH octaves, so we chose a piece that has a suitable dose of those to work on. It's not called an etude, but it works as one for me. Better than something focusing entirely on just repeated octaves, because I could easily overdo it and risk RSI. Scarlatti, Bach and other Baroque composers did not call their teaching pieces etudes, but they had similar purposes and are just as useful.

Later you may have a good level of skills, but need more practice in a certain style or technique of playing. An etude chosen by your teacher can be a good tool to do this. Or as a beginner you may need a certain kind of a teaching piece to get over some physical barriers. But it's always more important how you study than what pieces you study, as long as there's enough variation. You cannot learn everything at once anyway.

Chopin and Liszt etudes are more for fine tuning and showcasing your skills than building them from the scratch. That's why they are regular material in high level competitions and performed by the pros.

[immortalbeloved]

For my classical repertoire I am doing the RCM Celebration series, and it has its own 1-10 level etudes book. So when I asked to study etudes, I specifically asked her to study those books (they were advertised on the back of my celebration repertoire book). 

[1piano4joe]

Hi immortalbeloved,

I own those 10 RCM etude books. Those were exactly the ones I meant in my previous post.

I started with grade 1 and did ALL the etudes in the book. I did this since each etude addressed something different and for each one had I skipped would have meant just another gap in my training/education.

I can't recommend them highly enough. They can really transform your playing if you take your time with them and get what your supposed to out of each one. They are not easy but worth the effort.  

Funny thing though is I like some of them more than my repertoire pieces. In fact, some of them are in my repertoire!

I am no longer a beginner. I have some skills and those etudes are a large part of the reason why.

I hope I have been helpful, Joe.

[mjames]

Well, we have dishwashers and cats 

cats are not as annoying as dogs, in fact, they're not even annoying at all. just give them food and it's all good. If you starve them...well they're just going to go somewhere else.

[outin]

cats are not as annoying as dogs, in fact, they're not even annoying at all.

We seem to agree on something 

just give them food and it's all good. If you starve them...well they're just going to go somewhere else.

Or just eat you when you sleep!

[outin]

For my classical repertoire I am doing the RCM Celebration series, and it has its own 1-10 level etudes book. So when I asked to study etudes, I specifically asked her to study those books (they were advertised on the back of my celebration repertoire book). 

Every teacher has their own method. Some like to go with this sort of books, others don't. Both get results if they know their job.

I don't see why anyone would like to work on books like that, they are extremely boring...so be careful what you ask for! 

[theholygideons]

For my classical repertoire I am doing the RCM Celebration series, and it has its own 1-10 level etudes book. So when I asked to study etudes, I specifically asked her to study those books (they were advertised on the back of my celebration repertoire book). 

Get rid of that trash, immediately. Any book that forms part of a series and attempts to categorize pieces like that are predominately done so for the financial gain of the authors. Don't tell me you're too lazy to search for pieces yourself. Go onto youtube and search for etudes by various composers, and most of the time the scores will be on imslp. Don't let anyone decide for you whether or not a piece is too difficult, you need to get into the hang of gauging that difficulty yourself.

[pianocat3]

Actually, I have cats and a dishwasher myself and no dogs. I have no idea why I wrote what I did. Trying to be generic ;-). But seriously (!!!) If I ignore my cats, they bop me in the leg repeatedly or jump on my lap when I am playing!!! I figure with that sort of harassment, if I get a heckler at the nursing home, no problem. We'll see! I haven't played publicly yet.

Back to the OP who may or may not have helpful pets, it seems to me if you have a good teacher, they will see your weak areas, and give you custom attention to help you with those deficiencies. My teacher certainly does.  This may involve exercises or more pieces that address the weak area. Maybe the teacher just nags more, on those problems the student is not diligently addressing. Lol!!  Maybe everyone else is good about addressing their weaknesses.

[immortalbeloved]

I have an emotionally abusive lovebird. Every time I hit a high C he chirps so loudly. He always critiques my play.

[pianocat3]

Maybe he wishes you chose piccolo instead. :-)

[kawai_cs]

Actually, I have cats and a dishwasher myself and no dogs. I have no idea why I wrote what I did. Trying to be generic ;-)

If so than how can you claim you have no time to practice 3-4 hours a day?

Ok, to be honest (and serious) I was able to practice that much only in 2015. I cancelled my gym membership, once I even cancelled a hairdresser appointment. My attitude was basically like: everything that is not practicing is a waste of time. Having such attitude quickly results in irritation when you don't get at your goals fast enough - not healthy at all So this year I am trying to be cooler about it.

To OP: I completely understand your dying to start working on "the etudes". They are extremely beautiful pieces and playing them is a clear statement that you are good at the piano. By playing I mean here playing them as they are supposed to - up to tempo and musically from the first till last note. I am also dying to play them all but working on far too difficult repertoire does not result in progress.
I played Chopin's op 25 no 12 in my recital last year but I haven't even bothered to post it in audition room because it was not up to my standard of good playing of a Chopin etude. My teacher said to leave the etude alone for now and come back to it later. I got some little pieces, some of them graded 7. Like outin wrote they fulfill the purpose of an etude to me and I play only some parts of them to learn or improve given skills. That means that I actually wasted many hours last year practicing an etude that eventually brought me back were I was - missing some skills. So what I am trying to say is that as somebody already wrote above - "the etudes" are to polish and showcase already present good technique. For anybody who is still missing some skills and thus not ready they will not do much favor.

Another thing that comes to my mind in this context is the trust in your teacher. I know, people always think there must be some shortcut or some better and faster way to achieve good results. I tend to do the same - that is why I have lessons with two teachers But like with loosing weight - people look for diets, avoid certain foods, buy weird drinks or pills, whatever, whereas the recipe is simple - eat less. Similarly in playing the piano - it needs a lot of good practice over time. Good practice and a good course of practice means that you are gradually acquiring skills so the difficulty level increases step by step.