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What happens if I don't follow the fingerings? (Read 1822 times)

Offline dddddmajor

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What happens if I don't follow the fingerings?
« on: February 01, 2016, 07:21:04 PM »
Hi, I've been practicing Winter wind for a few weeks to play it on right tempo and figured that the fingerings which I prefer, 5-2-4-1-3-2-5-2-4-2-5-1-4-2...  were slightly wrong compared to the urtext version, but still, I could play it on right tempo. Also, I played the Black keys over to acquire sufficient techiques to play songs in fast tempo and again, I found out that my fingering, 3-5-1-4-2-4-2-4-1-3-1-3-2-4-1..so on.. Was not right at all. But, I can play both pieces in indicated tempo(Though I can play only the first two pages of Winter wind) and it seems as if using the original fingering is just slowing me down. What should I do? should I endure royal pain in the a** and just learn both pieces over? Well, I don't think people would be like "Look! his fingering is wrong! :o" when I play in public places. Moreover, I have long and skinny fingers that reach up to tenth(and my palm is small), so I have problems turning a hand quickly, which suggested fingerings is telling me to do :'(. Do I really MUST follow the fingerings?

Offline mjames

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Re: What happens if I don't follow the fingerings?
«Reply #1 on: February 01, 2016, 08:09:01 PM »
Usually I would say that fingerings are just a suggestion but in the particular case of etudes (most especially Chopin's etudes) they were designed to master a specific sets of technique. I haven't actually looked into this etude but try researching the urtext and original manuscript and try to see what the original intention of the etude is for. If the point of the etude is to go for -your- weakness of turning hands then I suggest you just do it...i mean that is the point of these etudes.

It's like me playing op. 10 no. 2 with "normal" fingering instead of the weird "finger over finger" that Chopin specified.

Offline chopinlover01

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Re: What happens if I don't follow the fingerings?
«Reply #2 on: February 02, 2016, 03:01:08 AM »
I agree with mjames to an extent; however, use your common sense and avoid injury. Right now I'm working on the Chopin etude in F minor, op. 10/9. In the LH, the first bit is an F-C (interval of a perfect fifth). This is marked to be played with 5-4. This puts unnecessary strain even on the largest hands. Perhaps it may not have been so in Chopin's day, as the keyboards were narrower, but on today's pianos it simply won't work that way.
As for your problem, Chopin's hands aren't your hands. I can't think of a single piece that I've used the exact fingering my score gave me in every place it gave me one (which with urtext editions is often sparse in and of itself).
You're right; fingering doesn't really contribute to the sound, it just makes the sound you want easier to achieve. Good fingering is a means to an end, not an end unto itself.
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Offline chopinawesome

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Re: What happens if I don't follow the fingerings?
«Reply #3 on: February 02, 2016, 04:47:34 AM »
Many editions give strange fingerings due to copyright issues.
Beethoven Op 2/2
Chopin Op 20, maybe op 47/38
Debussy Etude 7
Grieg Op 16
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Chopin Concerti 1 and 2
Beethoven Waldstein
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Offline thirtytwo2020

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Re: What happens if I don't follow the fingerings?
«Reply #4 on: February 02, 2016, 09:13:28 AM »
As for your problem, Chopin's hands aren't your hands. I can't think of a single piece that I've used the exact fingering my score gave me in every place it gave me one (which with urtext editions is often sparse in and of itself).
Good fingering is a means to an end, not an end unto itself.

I totally agree with Chopinlover.

I just want to add one thing, which some of you may not be aware of. In the case of Chopin's Etudes, most fingerings found in Urtext editions are Chopin's. So perhaps because of this, one should read and analyse them more carefully than the average fingering, suggested by editor so-and-so. But in the end, you are of course entitled to to what you find best.

Offline pianoplayer002

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Re: What happens if I don't follow the fingerings?
«Reply #5 on: February 07, 2016, 10:54:42 PM »
Right now I'm working on the Chopin etude in F minor, op. 10/9. In the LH, the first bit is an F-C (interval of a perfect fifth). This is marked to be played with 5-4. This puts unnecessary strain even on the largest hands. Perhaps it may not have been so in Chopin's day, as the keyboards were narrower, but on today's pianos it simply won't work that way.

Wrong. I have rather average hands, I can comfortably reach a 9th, and a 10th if I take my time. My fingers are not that long, and not super flexible either. But I play with 5-4. It's completely doable without strain, you just have to have develop your finger independence and be extremely supple. Which is probably what Chopin intended.

Quote
You're right; fingering doesn't really contribute to the sound, it just makes the sound you want easier to achieve.

Using a good fingering can definitely improve the ease and direction of phrasing and stuff like that, so good fingering can definitely contribute to the sound.

Offline chopinlover01

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Re: What happens if I don't follow the fingerings?
«Reply #6 on: February 08, 2016, 12:57:12 AM »
Fingering makes other things that contribute to the sound easier. However, which finger you use (unless you want to nitpick over the characteristics of the individual fingers) doesn't really change the sound all that much.
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Offline jimroof

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Re: What happens if I don't follow the fingerings?
«Reply #7 on: February 08, 2016, 10:04:05 PM »
If you have a strong knowledge of the principles of piano fingering, you should be totally qualified to come up with something that suits your hand.  Look through the scores of just about any serious piano student and you will likely find scratched out editor's fingerings and penciled-in markings that the student has discovered as being more suitable for their hands and their level of skill.

Rarely will a passage have only one way to make it work. 
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Offline adodd81802

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Re: What happens if I don't follow the fingerings?
«Reply #8 on: February 09, 2016, 09:39:03 AM »
If you have a strong knowledge of the principles of piano fingering, you should be totally qualified to come up with something that suits your hand.  Look through the scores of just about any serious piano student and you will likely find scratched out editor's fingerings and penciled-in markings that the student has discovered as being more suitable for their hands and their level of skill.

Rarely will a passage have only one way to make it work. 

I agree with this. I watched a number of Dorothy Taubman videos (in comes LouisPodesta!!)

And they talk a lot about grouping which is focusing on only the notes which can fit under the hand in one group or in one efficient movement and then connecting it to the next group of notes, for me grouping could consist of even as low as 2 notes, I sure as hell won't be stretching to get to the 3rd.

Thanks to some good pedalling, there are many options intro tricking the ears into hearing what SOUNDS
"England is a country of pianos, they are everywhere."

Offline adodd81802

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Re: What happens if I don't follow the fingerings?
«Reply #9 on: February 09, 2016, 09:40:07 AM »
If you have a strong knowledge of the principles of piano fingering, you should be totally qualified to come up with something that suits your hand.  Look through the scores of just about any serious piano student and you will likely find scratched out editor's fingerings and penciled-in markings that the student has discovered as being more suitable for their hands and their level of skill.

Rarely will a passage have only one way to make it work. 

I agree with this. I watched a number of Dorothy Taubman videos (in comes LouisPodesta!!)

And they talk a lot about grouping which is focusing on only the notes which can fit under the hand in one group or in one efficient movement and then connecting it to the next group of notes, for me grouping could consist of even as low as 2 notes, I sure as hell won't be stretching to get to the 3rd.

Thanks to some good pedalling, there are many options intro tricking the ears into hearing what SOUNDS the same, but is so much kinder to your fingers.
"England is a country of pianos, they are everywhere."