Advice needed

[piano_mad]

Hi everybody, I'm new to this forum. I've been going through a pretty hard time where I had a very bad lesson with a teacher where I was told that I wasn't playing musically and without much colour or excitement. I'm very upset about this as I know I practised very hard, prepared as well as I could possibly have for this lesson; yet I'm obviously a terrible pianist. I want to be able to play at a super high level so badly, but after what happened I think I probably don't have it in me at all. I don't want to give up playing piano; there's absolutely no way I could stop doing something I love so much. I just don't know what to do anymore.

[adodd81802]

You're probably not going to like this response.

First of all, I think your attitude is terrible. Equally as terrible as your teacher's by the sounds of it...

Going around a forum whining about a bad experience feeling sorry for yourself is not going to help you progress. So you had a bad piano lesson, let me know when you get some real life problems...

You said you want to be a great pianist, assuming you mean professionally, you would have surely done some research and know that it's a cut throat industry where only the very best truly succeed, the hardest work and determination is required along with true confidence in your ability.

To work hard, to be the best, you need to accept you should rarely EVER be truly satisfied with how you play, and if you are happy, you've either gave a performance of a life time, or you're wrapped in a little comfort bubble that needs to get burst.

If your teacher said these things, It should be presumed that your teacher also told you why they thought this?

In lessons, in anything, there are two roles to be played; a teacher needs to teach, they need to give information, they need to lead without control, they need to help keep routine and check progress.

A student also has a role, to learn, to be willing, to understand and accept their imperfections, to overcome these.

Is there such thing as a perfect student? A perfect teacher? Unlikely and so there are 2 scenarios.

1- You find a new teacher, one that will provide more constructive feedback about your playing (not just telling you what you want to hear, or insulting your ability)

2- You become a better student, Ask your teacher questions, challenge their comments and build a better relationship with your teacher, get them to play the same sections.

Too many complaints about teachers I'll never understand because If I have a problem with my teacher, I'd tell them, If it cannot be resolved, I find another.

Worst case? I find a worse teacher and I go back to my original one. Piano teachers have a passion to teach, that is true, But the reality is, it's a business, and 9/10 times they wouldn't be teaching if you're not handing over the money.

[outin]

I've been going through a pretty hard time where I had a very bad lesson with a teacher where I was told that I wasn't playing musically and without much colour or excitement.

You need to turn your thinking around. What's so bad about that? You have found a teacher who told you where you can improve your playing. That's a great thing really. Obviously you also have a lot that does not need improving, but that's rather irrelevant now isn't it? Will you continue with that teacher? If so you can now expect him/her to teach you HOW to put more musicality, color and excitement to your playing.

[klavieronin]

If your teacher said these things without giving any suggestions on how to improve you might want to think about looking for another teacher. If your teacher did suggest how to improve then you have found a good teacher and you should be grateful for the criticism.

[reiyza]

I had a very bad lesson with a teacher where I was told that I wasn't playing musically and without much colour or excitement.

Man, reminds me of my previous teacher(also grandfather), he would often tell me this when I'm playing a piece I don't like.  I of course were very young at the time, had the same attitude as yours, wants to quit but can't. But what does my teacher do? He waits for me after school and takes me home straight to the piano and lets me play the piece(I hate it!) over and over again until he's satisfied! Sometimes from 5pm to 9pm (ofc with breaks ). And he made me what I am today(a 23 year old who yearns for piano playing).

Go speak to your teacher regarding your feelings and come to a mutual agreement (Conflict management is the best).

or... you could try addod's advice, "find a new one, or be a better student"

Good Luck!
 

[piano_mad]

Sorry if it wasn't clear but I definitely don't want to quit. I love the piano so much. I'm just incredibly disappointed with myself for playing so badly. The teacher did show me ways of improving, but is frustrated as I should be able to play to that level already. Thanks to everybody for the replies.

[dcstudio]

let me know when you get some real life problems...

 

[adodd81802]

Maybe I was a little harsh in my response, but I am not quite sure what the OP is asking for on this forum?

Somebody to tell them they're great and their teacher is wrong?
Somebody to tell them everything will be OK and they will get better?

To the OP.

You put you love playing the piano and you don't know what to do anymore;

Potentially piano playing on a piano level is not within your skill level. You may not ever know for sure unless you persevere. Even the greatest pianists all started with Piano teachers. Learn to think for yourself and set your own goals and use your teacher to help you achieve those goals.

If they push you back and criticize your playing, it should only motivate you more to be better and listen to what they are telling you.

[louispodesta]

Hi everybody, I'm new to this forum. I've been going through a pretty hard time where I had a very bad lesson with a teacher where I was told that I wasn't playing musically and without much colour or excitement. I'm very upset about this as I know I practised very hard, prepared as well as I could possibly have for this lesson; yet I'm obviously a terrible pianist. I want to be able to play at a super high level so badly, but after what happened I think I probably don't have it in me at all. I don't want to give up playing piano; there's absolutely no way I could stop doing something I love so much. I just don't know what to do anymore.

Speaking as someone who, on occasion has been brutal in my criticism of certain posts, I feel that the criticism rendered you has been overly harsh.  Your statement of facts, and request for help was very straightforward, in my opinion.

Therefore, if I may be of some assistance, please contact me by PM.

And, I will leave the rest of you with two dictums related to me personally by my late piano teacher Robert Weaver, and then by videotape by Dorothy Taubman:

1)  Back in the 1970's, I asked Bob why I could not play this or that passage.  His answer was:  have you seen (live in concert) or heard (recordings) other pianists successfully manage this music?  My answer being yes, he said: well, that means that someone successfully "taught" them how to do it.  If they can, then you can because they have a brain and ten fingers just like you have.

2.  In the introduction to her videotapes, Dorothy Taubman was asked point blank whether or not her method would work successfully for any and all students.  Her response was an unequivocal yes!

 

[dcstudio]

ok well... should your teacher say first... "I understand that you have worked very hard..." before going on to say "I still don't hear much color or excitement."   Should she lie and say it's very musical when in fact it is not.   Do you believe that this statement is stating you will never be able to play in a "musical" way?

There are so many teachers who give their students false praise and create these players who believe themselves to be incredibly gifted when in fact they are quite boring and mediocre.  They are unable to hear any imperfection in their own playing although they abound.   On the other side there are overly critical teachers who create incredible players who are complete neurotics and cannot perform because they have ZERO confidence.  Of these two--who has a better shot?  Actually, the guy with confidence can overcome his hysterical deafness buckle down and become musical--and the neurotic can also overcome his problem and gain confidence.

but like 99.9% of pianists I have met fall into one of these two categories.  I have been neurotic--and I have been overly confident and mediocre at times.    I did better confident though mediocre if I had to choose between the two.

not really an answer in there is there? 

[briansaddleback]

Hi everybody, I'm new to this forum. I've been going through a pretty hard time where I had a very bad lesson with a teacher where I was told that I wasn't playing musically and without much colour or excitement. I'm very upset about this as I know I practised very hard, prepared as well as I could possibly have for this lesson; yet I'm obviously a terrible pianist. I want to be able to play at a super high level so badly, but after what happened I think I probably don't have it in me at all. I don't want to give up playing piano; there's absolutely no way I could stop doing something I love so much. I just don't know what to do anymore.

Like those above that mentioned the same thing as I am, you contradict your statement by saying your 'love of music' but saying it is 'bad' that a teacher states you play without color or musically.

I would rather say we may all be mediocre in piano playing to a certain degree, but with new piano students and especially younger , who think they can push a few keys and say they are gifted, they show mediocrity in their character, which is worse.

It is not your 'love of music' but love of self. Narcissism. Which makes you contradict and say things like 'give up' and 'bad' when all is good criticism to building one to make better music later.

IF it is really about the music, you would uphold all qualified instructors' criticisms as a building block to getting better. I always thank them.  I always get better. I don't care if they say I am mediocre now. I "will" to get better. But my character? not mediocre in approach to music and learning.

kids.

[louispodesta]

ok well... should your teacher say first... "I understand that you have worked very hard..." before going on to say "I still don't hear much color or excitement."   Should she lie and say it's very musical when in fact it is not.   Do you believe that this statement is stating you will never be able to play in a "musical" way?

There are so many teachers who give their students false praise and create these players who believe themselves to be incredibly gifted when in fact they are quite boring and mediocre.  They are unable to hear any imperfection in their own playing although they abound.   On the other side there are overly critical teachers who create incredible players who are complete neurotics and cannot perform because they have ZERO confidence.  Of these two--who has a better shot?  Actually, the guy with confidence can overcome his hysterical deafness buckle down and become musical--and the neurotic can also overcome his problem and gain confidence.

but like 99.9% of pianists I have met fall into one of these two categories.  I have been neurotic--and I have been overly confident and mediocre at times.    I did better confident though mediocre if I had to choose between the two.

not really an answer in there is there? 

Of course, there is.  That is why, as a pianist/philosopher, I say what I have said (often to much ridicule).

Art, contrary to university promoted mythology (in whatever manifestation) is not magic!  Therefore, in my experience, yes:  there is a way wherein a person can attain levels of high performance without playing all of the supposed intellectual games one is expected to traditionally endure.

I am so tired of hearing this carp.  Maybe, in the year 3000, we will have come to our senses. Certainly, so far, the 21 first century has made no significant changes in this regard.

[dcstudio]

Like those above that mentioned the same thing as I am, you contradict your statement by saying your 'love of music' but saying it is 'bad' that a teacher states you play without color or musically.

I would rather say we may all be mediocre in piano playing to a certain degree, but with new piano students and especially younger , who think they can push a few keys and say they are gifted, they show mediocrity in their character, which is worse.

It is not your 'love of music' but love of self. Narcissism. Which makes you contradict and say things like 'give up' and 'bad' when all is good criticism to building one to make better music later.

IF it is really about the music, you would uphold all qualified instructors' criticisms as a building block to getting better. I always thank them.  I always get better. I don't care if they say I am mediocre now. I "will" to get better. But my character? not mediocre in approach to music and learning.

kids.

...as a veteran piano teacher may I say that I have never heard ANYONE speak more wisely from the student perspective.


*sigh*  marry me... 

[dcstudio]

Art,  is not magic!  

well yes it is... but not that kind of magic I agree completely.  

[jimroof]

OK, a few questions might need to be answered before anyone here can really know what is going on...

How long have you been playing?  What works did you play for your teacher?  At what point in their preparation were you when you played them for this teacher?

I have always loved piano.  But, when I was just a few years into it I was not a terribly musical player.  The techniques of piano playing must become second nature and EASY before the music is free to emerge.  When struggling with the notes, nothing much is naturally musical.  I am working on some Chopin Etudes right now - the tough ones.  My family is not enjoying it.  I am... but they are not. 

Why do you LOVE the piano?  Is it just a goal that you love?  Have you ever been moved to tears while playing a slow movement to a Beethoven or Mozart Sonata?  Years ago there was a female figure skater named Surya Bonaly (from France).  She was an incredible athlete and was doing things on ice that no contemporary was able to do.  Her physical gift was amazing.  However, she had all of the artistry of a bag of hammers.  She had zero grace, zero elegance and zero artistic appeal.  She would routinely score high, but at least up until the point I was aware of her career, she was an expressive nightmare.  While other girls would build up speed for some triple jump with grace and a very expressive manner, Surya would do the same thing while somehow managing to look more like long jumper just doing whatever was necessary to get the speed up. 

Obviously she loved what she did, but her love of it was only to DO it as an achievement.  I never saw the slightest bit of artistry in her performances. 

So, why do you LOVE the piano?  Is it because you love playing piano, or because you love the music that it puts you in touch with?

Finally, why not record something and post it in the audition forum?  That might take a little guts, but you will be more likely to get to the bottom of this that way.

[briansaddleback]

...as a veteran piano teacher may I say that I have never heard ANYONE speak more wisely from the student perspective.


*sigh*  marry me... 

Haha now you're just returning the favor! Cmon

[dcstudio]

actually I have been married for 18 years   but your statement was still beautiful and so rare among students.   That kind of "big picture" thinking is what sees you through to your goals.  I predict that you will do it and one day you will wake up and realize that you are playing at a level you had never dreamed was possible.  That is one amazing feeling, and it doesn't happen to everyone. 

[louispodesta]

In my opinion, there are certain variables, in terms of the epistemology (thought process) that should be associated with the OP's original interrogatory.

First, in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries, pianos were sold by the hundreds of thousands.  It was an integral "supposed" attempt to establish an European "Middle Class."  In the U.S. then and today, the mindset is exactly the same.

That means:  that if you owned a piano, then you and your family were "people of culture." Accordingly, every one had to have a teacher, who most of the time was some kind of grand master;  sound familiar?  "My teacher is a conductor."

Specific to the OP, you are being proffered the same con rendered any new student by a teacher who is not a piano pedagogue.  That is someone who is dedicated to the science of teaching, and that does not mean some washed-up conductor trying to sound important/knowledgeable.

Further, on point, musical color in regards the playing of the piano is usually reserved for grand master pianists, and not beginners!

I have heard this BS in Master Classes all of my adult life.  The very sad thing is that, instead of trying to get the student to the next level, these fakes revert to put downs as part of their supposed teaching.

[dcstudio]

I have heard this BS in Master Classes all of my adult life.  The very sad thing is that, instead of trying to get the student to the next level, these fakes revert to put downs as part of their supposed teaching.

as much as I love to disagree with you Louis--the master class bit is oh so true.  LOL.  I used to think they had to have auditioned them and picked the biggest A$$ in the lot to run the class.  

no--not every master class is this way of course....  but more than a few are.

[louispodesta]

Specifically, I will share with you a personal experience from a Master Class experience from the early 1980's.

I was at UT Austin, and the class was presented by HRH Leon Fleisher.  As each student (all DMA matriculates), were trotted out to get their supposed wisdom from "on high," it turned out to be "not" just that.

If I could make this up, then I could successfully pursue another career.  Vis a vis Marco Rubio, Leon Fleisher had a "scripted" line to each and all of these DMA student participants.

Whatever they played, he listened and then said:  paraphrasing, "please momentarily stop, and then "listen to it ring up and down the string."  How could I make this up?

Needless to say, none of these accomplished pianists in their 30's had a clue as to what he was talking about.  Conversely, I absolutely do (the mechanics associated with producing a singing tone), but that is beside the point.

What is important, as I have stated before, is that these so-called high level piano instructors should be taken with a very large grain of salt.  It ain't free, and in most instances, it is very expensive and very much less than what it purports itself to be.

[dcstudio]

yes as I said in another post..

someday I hope to tour the world doing master classes that I will charge a small fortune for.  I will be difficult to work with and make unreasonable demands.  I will be vague, ambiguous,  condescending and  I will also have an entourage of handsome young men who hang on my every word. 


lol...  been to more than a few master classes myself over the years.

[keypeg]

Hi everybody, I'm new to this forum. I've been going through a pretty hard time where I had a very bad lesson with a teacher where I was told that I wasn't playing musically and without much colour or excitement. I'm very upset about this as I know I practised very hard, prepared as well as I could possibly have for this lesson; yet I'm obviously a terrible pianist. I want to be able to play at a super high level so badly, but after what happened I think I probably don't have it in me at all. I don't want to give up playing piano; there's absolutely no way I could stop doing something I love so much. I just don't know what to do anymore.

Before anybody can answer anything, a number of things should be known?

Is this your regular teacher - how long have you been with this teacher - is this your first teacher?  How long have you been playing piano?  How long have you had lessons?  Did you start with a teacher, have you been self-teaching first, and how long?  I.e. a bit of background.

In all honesty, I am not very impressed when a teacher wants it to be more "musical", unless s/he also teaches how to make it more musical.  And here my questions also matter: if this is a new teacher, or a teacher you have had for a while.  If for a while, has he taught you how to make it musical? Additionally, do you have the technical means to make it musical?  For example, if you make it more musical by bringing out the melody or stress certain notes, you need the physical ability (technique) to do so - which is a thing a teacher should be teaching.

.... as I know I practised very hard, prepared as well as I could ....

The number one thing which it appears is not taught enough, is HOW to practise, and HOW to prepare.  And again, this is a thing that should be given by the teacher at some point.  You can practise yourself into exhaustion and yet have your piece stay "unmusical" unless you understand what to do with the music, what to do physically to make it happen, and how to organize what you are doing from day to day, and minute to minute.

Personally I would not know what to do with an instruction to "add more colour" unless it was a painting class.

Did this teacher give you any concrete suggestions as to how to make it more musical?

[dcstudio]

yes, keypeg does speak the truth.   If you have one of those teachers who says things like "add more color" but doesn't tell you exactly what "musical color" is then move on.   If they just seem to use words you don't understand and they make you feel small... this is not a good fit.