I decided to publish my 7 Sonatas.

[nickc]

I'd love some input from fellow musicians and pianists.

The Premiere of my 7 Piano Sonatas. They Can be viewed as one individual entity or as seven independent works. Each sonata is related to the others in some way. These sonatas explore the various harmonic and rhythmic states of music, as well as the mathematical/musical relationship of the number 7.

The tonal/rhythmic language used reflects various points of colour, states of being, imagery and mathematics.

This is the world I live in. It's both maddening and wondrous...

0:00 - Sonata No.1(Red)
9:58 - Sonata No.2 (The Unfinished)
17:10 Sonata No.3 (The Choice)
26:32 Sonata No.4 (The Poem)
36:00 Sonata No. 5 (The Sorcerer)
45:34 Sonata 6 (The Oriental)
56:20 Sonata 7 (Winter)

Paintings: Anna Armona

[pencilart3]

Well done. Cool paintings too.

[daniele1234]

Really like it - you have done some great work here. I particularly like no.1 and no.3, especially that striking chord at the beginning of no.1. Do you think you could upload the sheet music as well?

[mjames]

Is this midi? I listened to the first one and it sounds really interesting. Can you upload an acoustic version of it?

[nickc]

I'll be working on the sheet music over the next few weeks. I always play the composition first and then notate it after if necessary. I find if I do things the traditional way (write it down first) I'd be to tempted to alter it some way. Best just to play what your thinking, that way you capture the true emotion of the composition in one take.

It's performed on the Korg Sv-1 and edited through Logic pro. Unfortunately, I do not own an acoustic piano. Maybe one day.

[jimroof]

Just curious here...

Are these actually in sonata form?  I cannot yet tell if you have the necessary structure to really call them sonatas (exposition, development, recapitulation).

Sonata form has such a rich and well defined heritage that I would hesitate to apply the label if the definition does not apply.  It would be sort of like writing a series of perfectly fine 4/4 works and calling them waltzes...

Maybe I am just in a bad mood, but I have always been a real stickler for nomenclature.

[nickc]

 I am somewhat re-defining what a Sonata may be. I view them as "emotive" sonatas. The notes are superficial... It's the colors and emotions that matter most. The initial emotion follows an exposition... and then moves to a form of development and then a recapitulation... although maybe not as Structured as traditional sonata form compositions. Everything changes... so there's no reason why our definitions of music should stay the same.

If it helps, try viewing it as one large 1hour long sonata. Sonata 1 would be the exposition (statement of themes/emotions), sonatas 2-5 as the emotional/musical development, and sonatas 6-7 as the recapitulation. Notice the opening of sonata one and the ending of sonata 7...

All of the movements are related.

N

[ted]

I'll be working on the sheet music over the next few weeks. I always play the composition first and then notate it after if necessary. I find if I do things the traditional way (write it down first) I'd be to tempted to alter it some way. Best just to play what your thinking, that way you capture the true emotion of the composition in one take.

It's performed on the Korg Sv-1 and edited through Logic pro. Unfortunately, I do not own an acoustic piano. Maybe one day.

So essentially this is recorded improvisation then, but notated through the convenience of a digital piano rather than by ear ? It seems interesting. I look forward to downloading the whole thing and listening to it through my hi-fi as time permits.

[nickc]

So essentially this is recorded improvisation then, but notated through the convenience of a digital piano rather than by ear ? It seems interesting. I look forward to downloading the whole thing and listening to it through my hi-fi as time permits.

I hope you enjoy it. I don't view it as improvised... and if others do, then I ask them: at what point does improvisation become composition. If you can see your composition in the minds eye... it's structure, imagery etc...and then translate that into sound (Through your instrument), and record/ notate (or transcribe) it, is that not composition?

 Likewise, if you are in an unpredictable musical setting (Jazz quartet for example) then any musical conversation you have, would lean towards improvisation. Responding to unpredictable musical questions with an unpredictable musical answer is my definition of improvisation.

[jimroof]

I am somewhat re-defining what a Sonata may be.

No offense, but one person does not get to redefine what nearly 300 years of history has etched in stone.

Call them 'Impressions', 'Pieces', 'Diversions' or whatever.  But do not call them sonatas if they do not fir the form.  Like I said, you might as well be writing 4/4 waltzes.

[nickc]

No offense, but one person does not get to redefine what nearly 300 years of history has etched in stone.

Call them 'Impressions', 'Pieces', 'Diversions' or whatever.  But do not call them sonatas if they do not fir the form.  Like I said, you might as well be writing 4/4 waltzes.

I think you might be getting Sonata and Sonata form confused. I stand by my decision to call them Sonatas but I will agree that they do not perfectly fit the traditional definition of Sonata form. I will say that they are loosely based up sonata form. Keep in mind, even some of the late sonatas by Beethoven and Scriabin began to break down the concepts behind sonata form.

Encyclopedia Britannica: Sonata

Sonata, type of musical composition, usually for a solo instrument or a small instrumental ensemble, that typically consists of two to four movements, or sections, each in a related key but with a unique musical character.

Deriving from the past participle of the Italian verb sonare, “to sound,” the term sonata originally denoted a composition played on instruments, as opposed to one that was cantata, or “sung,” by voices. Its first such use was in 1561, when it was applied to a suite of dances for lute. The term has since acquired other meanings that can easily cause confusion. It can mean a composition in two or more movements, or separate sections, played by a small group of instruments, having no more than three independent parts. Most frequently it refers to such a piece for one or two instruments, such as Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata (1801) for piano. By extension, sonata can also refer to a composition for a larger instrumental group having more than two or three parts, such as a string quartet or an orchestra, provided that the composition is based on principles of musical form that from the mid-18th century were used in sonatas for small instrumental groups. The term has been more loosely applied to 20th-century works, whether or not they rely on 18th-century principles.


Sonata Form

Quite distinct from all of the preceding, however, is the use of the term in “sonata form.” This denotes a particular form, or method of musical organization, typically used in one or more movements of multi movement instrumental works written since the beginning of the Classical period (the period of Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven) in the mid-18th century. Such works include sonatas, string quartets and other chamber music, and symphonies.

  Sonata form, also called first-movement form or sonata-allegro form,  musical structure that is most strongly associated with the first movement of various Western instrumental genres, notably, sonatas, symphonies, and string quartets. Maturing in the second half of the 18th century, it provided the instrumental vehicle for much of the most profound musical thought until about the middle of the 19th century, and it continued to figure prominently in the methods of many later composers.

 Although sonata form is sometimes called first-movement form, the first movements of multi movement works are not always in sonata form, nor does the form occur only in first movements. Likewise, the variant sonata-allegro form is misleading, for it need not be in a quick tempo such as allegro.

[brogers70]

I think you might be getting Sonata and Sonata form confused. I stand by my decision to call them Sonatas but I will agree that they do not perfectly fit the traditional definition of Sonata form. I will say that they are loosely based up sonata form. Keep in mind, even some of the late sonatas by Beethoven and Scriabin began to break down the concepts behind sonata form.

Indeed. In fact even Beethoven's relatively early Opus 26 Piano Sonata in Ab has four movements, none of which is in sonata form.

[adodd81802]

.

[mjames]

Nothing better than an ownage done with a DICTIONARY!!!

[brogers70]

Indeed. In fact even Beethoven's relatively early Opus 26 Piano Sonata in Ab has four movements, none of which is in sonata form.

In fact, come to think of it, Mozart's Piano Sonata in A major K300, the one with the Rondo alla Turca, also has no movement in sonata form.

[jimroof]

I still maintain that the term piano sonata has an historical implication that should be respected.

Maybe I am too appreciative of the heritage of the piano literature to acquiesce on this topic, but I can tell I am speaking to a different crowd here, so I will bow out of this in a less than gracious form, still maintaining that words mean things and these pieces are not sonatas.

Here is the first definition that pops up with a google search...

so·na·ta
səˈnädə/
noun
noun: sonata; plural noun: sonatas

    a composition for an instrumental soloist, often with a piano accompaniment, typically in several movements with one or more in sonata form.

[chopinlover01]

While I'm "meh" towards these pieces, the notion of a sonata having to stick strictly to classical form belongs in the classical era. Without breaking the rules, we never would've gotten the genius of the Liszt sonata, or the Medtner single movement sonatas, or the Scriabin sonatas...

[brogers70]

I still maintain that the term piano sonata has an historical implication that should be respected.

Maybe I am too appreciative of the heritage of the piano literature to acquiesce on this topic, but I can tell I am speaking to a different crowd here, so I will bow out of this in a less than gracious form, still maintaining that words mean things and these pieces are not sonatas.

Here is the first definition that pops up with a google search...

so·na·ta
səˈnädə/
noun
noun: sonata; plural noun: sonatas

    a composition for an instrumental soloist, often with a piano accompaniment, typically in several movements with one or more in sonata form.

Nonetheless, composers like Beethoven, Mozart, and Haydn, (never mind earlier ones like Scarlatti and Soler) all wrote piano sonatas which contained no movement in sonata form. A sonata may "typically" contain a movement in sonata form, but it is not required to. As someone very appreciative of the history and diversity of the piano literature, I cannot acquiesce on this either. Sonata form is a musicological description of what a lot of classical period composers often did, but the composers themselves, even the most classical ones, did not limit themselves to the form as described by musicologists. Sonatas, even classical period sonatas, are not required to contain a movement in sonata form.

[chopinlover01]

I'd be curious, then, why you think they distinguished between sonatas and any old collection of movements. Schumann, for instance, published many multimovement works (Kinderszenen, Walderszenen, etc.) but also wrote sonatas of more than one kind.
While it's true that there are sonatas that don't have a movement that strictly adheres to the form, the majority of them do, hence their name.

[brogers70]

Beats me why composers name their works as they do. Between what else do Brahms "Intermezzi" come, what are they placed between? To what are Chopin's Preludes preludes?

Sonatas are called sonatas because they are played, not sung (unlike cantatas). Sonata form is called sonata form because it shows up in many sonatas. Sonatas are not called sonatas because they contain a movement in sonata form. Even classical period sonatas may lack a movement in sonata form, and Baroque sonatas all lack movements in sonata form. Sonatas are not sonatas by virtue of having a movement in sonata form; rather sonata form is sonata form because it is found in many classical sonatas.

[nickc]

Quite the debate I've seem to have started...

Hope you all enjoy the music along the way.

[chopinlover01]

Oh, right, this was a thing..

Beats me why composers name their works as they do. Between what else do Brahms "Intermezzi" come, what are they placed between? To what are Chopin's Preludes preludes?

Sonatas are called sonatas because they are played, not sung (unlike cantatas). Sonata form is called sonata form because it shows up in many sonatas. Sonatas are not called sonatas because they contain a movement in sonata form. Even classical period sonatas may lack a movement in sonata form, and Baroque sonatas all lack movements in sonata form. Sonatas are not sonatas by virtue of having a movement in sonata form; rather sonata form is sonata form because it is found in many classical sonatas.

True, given that Haydn is generally credited with the most substantial contribution to the sonata form (though the first piano sonata IIRC was by Kuhnau), but since the point of sonata form being highly attributed to sonatas, they are generally associated with the sonata form.
I'm a bit swayed on this. I'm also interested in seeing them all as one bigger sonata, but that's another discussion entirely.
However, I will ask YOU, the composer, since you're here; what lead you to call these pieces sonatas instead of a creative title like Schumann and the lot did? I'm genuinely curious; did you feel the sonata form needed redefining, or just like the name of it, or something else?

[derschoenebahnhof]

Quite the debate I've seem to have started...

Hope you all enjoy the music along the way.

Welcome to the piano street world...  FaultyDamper would probably have replayed the whole thing 1.25 times faster with Audacity and Mr. Sayers would likely play all the pieces 4 times slower.

Joking aside, I did enjoy the music quite a bit, some passages remind me of "Crépuscules" by Florent Schmitt (a French composer I am not sure many know). Like others have noted, it would need more structure and thematic material to be called sonatas but I found it very enjoyable nonetheless.

As an aside question, did you render the audio with sampled piano software?

CG

[pantonality]

What a shame I can't respond to the thread without killing the music. However, as a composer I'd like to weigh in on the debate about sonatas. I've avoided the term in the last 20 years because for me it does imply a multi-movement form with at least one movement in a sonata-like form. So what is sonata form in the 21st century. Sonata form has always been about comparing and contrasting two or more theme groups, one may be dramatic a second lyrical. There may be something else in there too, but in my mind sonata form implies contrasting themes.

I don't hear contrasting themes in the first of these sonatas. I do believe these pieces may find more success if they were more effectively named. Frankly, sonata implies boring for many people. The first piece in this thread would gain more attention if it was named "The Marriage of a Gopher and a Swan." It being a very abstract piece who's to say the title's inaccurate? Given the lack of contrasting themes I can say the title "sonata" is for me inaccurate. I do think it's safe to say the marriage title would get more attention (anywhere else but this forum).

Of course now that I've posted this I see each sonata has a subtitle, why not just go with those?

[medtnaculus]

The very first chord of the first sonata is intriguing. May I ask what it is?

[nickc]

I call it the Mysterium Chord. It's Cmaj [ C, G, E (10th)] in the left hand with Emaj (4 note chord) in the right hand. I enjoy the harmonic "struggles" of polytonality.

[lateromantic]

Sounds like this guy has done his homework. Good definitions.

Actually, all he did was copy and paste from this page:  https://www.britannica.com/art/sonata

Personally, I don't think a composer is bound to follow historical sonata form slavishly, but I also don't think it is appropriate to use the term "sonata" unless one's work has some relationship to the historical form.  In my case, I've experimented a lot with the component ideas of the genre in my four sonatas.  My Sonata No. 1 was in traditional sonata form (with four movements).  My Sonata No. 2 and Sonata No. 4 were both large-scale single movement works with a sonata-allegro structure, somewhat comparable to the Liszt B Minor Sonata in form.  In my Sonata No. 3, I tried a quite novel approach:  The work has three movements, with the traditional slow movement in the middle, but the sonata-allegro form is spread across all three movements, so the recapitulation (including the return to the tonic) comes in the middle of the last movement.

[themeandvariation]

Nickc - Oh that's what You call it? 'Mysterium' chord?

Funny, Scriabin had a Famous chord he used - that he called the same thing… His is a bit more nuanced though, C F# Bflat E A D…  (what a coincidence !)

[nickc]

Not a coincidence. It is a homage to Scriabin. His tonal language combined with the harmonic language of Sun Ra, have had a deep impact on my understanding of music.

p.s He called his the Mystic chord. Mysterium (unfinished unfortunately for us ) is a composition of His... but I understand what you are trying to say.

[lateromantic]

Not a coincidence. It is a homage to Scriabin. His tonal language combined with the harmonic language of Sun Ra, have had a deep impact on my understanding of music.

p.s He called his the Mystic chord. Mysterium (unfinished unfortunately for us ) is a composition of His... but I understand what you are trying to say.

The synesthetic connections between colors and music are also straight out of Scriabin, of course.

[nickc]

The synesthetic connections between colors and music are also straight out of Scriabin, of course.

 Are you talking about music in general or me personally? I have associated music with color long before I encountered Scriabin. Back when I was first introduced to Miles Davis and the world of Jazz, I began to realize that music is painting with sound (At least that's how I view it) and a language with infinite definitions.

[themeandvariation]

Speaking of Miles, and of colors, definitely one of my favorite albums by Miles is his "Aura" .. It is quite singular in its integration of orchestral and jazz ensemble fusion..  There is also some incredible guitar work as well..

[lateromantic]

Are you talking about music in general or me personally? I have associated music with color long before I encountered Scriabin. Back when I was first introduced to Miles Davis and the world of Jazz, I began to realize that music is painting with sound (At least that's how I view it) and a language with infinite definitions.

I was talking about you personally, but I did not mean to imply that you do not experience synesthesia yourself independently of Scriabin.

Speaking for myself, I have associated colors with particular keys ever since I was a child, but I suspect it has more to do with subconscious or semiconscious memories than anything else--like the book with a red cover that had the little piano piece in A Major that I played when I was eleven.  I don't assign any profound significance to it.