Sonata Quasi una Fantasia "Moonlight" Mov't 1 -First Impressions ( A sight Read)

[nickc]

A sight read of this well known masterpiece...

I haven't looked at this piece in years but I've heard it many many times. I hear new melodies in this piece that I have never heard (noticed) before. It is these melodies that I try to emphasize in this read through, mistakes and all. 

Another thread posted in this forum inspired me to rediscover this work. I was amazed at the discussion that then took place. Truth is... I don't know what to make of this piece. Beethoven was clearly in great pain, I can relate. What were his thoughts when this melody (Melodies?) entered his mind?  He was loosing his hearing, he was loosing his livelihood... but we don't know exactly what he thought. I wonder how many different ways he himself performed this work? Unfortunately, we only have one score. Yes there are flaws, yes the tempo may very, yes it may be an ambiguous interpretation but you know what? I felt it.

I wonder how I will interpret this piece 10 years from now? New experiences, new struggles, more maturity.

Adagio Sostenuto- Si deve suonare tutto questo pezzo delicatissimamente e senza sordino
 
Slow and Sustained - One must play all of this piece very delicately and without a mute

[distantfieldrelative]

I don't mean to be rude (if this can be seen as rude).
Is that you jeeves?

[perfect_pitch]

I don't mean to be rude (if this can be seen as rude).
Is that you jeeves?

I somehow suspect this as well... Only a minute percentage of people would play it this way, as no qualified professional would be so lazy with the tempo and the fluency.

If this (surprisingly enough) turns out NOT to be Jeeves... then I apologise, but it's too slow, and lacks flow because of the almost sickening amount of Rubato.

[dcstudio]

why is it always effing Moonlight Sonata?  

why do they not understand... lol.  

come on--anyone who knew what they were doing would never post MS mvmt 1.. especially to claim sight-reading skills... we're supposed to impressed with a "prima vista" read, here.  

I don't think it's within the realm of possibility that a pianist who can sight-read has never seen MS mvmt 1.   I guess it's possible but the odds have to be in the millions against it.


seriously... you have a better chance of being struck by lightning... twice.

wow... this version is "hauntingly familiar"--after 20+ years of teaching I know what student sight-reading sounds like... this has well-worn passages... incorrect... and practiced that way


if you are not Jeeves... this is still pretty pretentious   

[nickc]

I'll take this as a sign I'm meant to stick to composing... apologies.

Cheers.

[thejeev]

I'll just point out that no, this is not me, but the poster should very feel proud of this performance. Nickc, you obviously have the balls to to shake your head at the modern "conservative" renditions of this piece and portray it in a way that speaks to you.

If we are to imagine a spectrum of "torment" that one could possibly infuse this piece with, I congratulate you on going all out. There may be individuals here that can not come to terms with the idea that this piece is about immense torment, but for those that do such as myself, it was a pleasure to listen to.

Though I'm not a trained musician, I will offer the following:

1. LVB wanted this piece played softly with the pedal down. It should sound like a muffled, bizarre sort of repeating voice. As such changes in dynamics should be done with caution. Any sudden changes in volume might detract from the intention of the piece. This is harder than most people think. When you connect to the "real voice" of this piece, as I believe you have 100%, you just go on auto pilot, and it's hard to control. I struggle with this too.

*I didn't use an acoustic piano so my recording doesn't even do this. Your piano sounds great.

2. I would take a softer approach, but keep the intensity with which you play. If your dynamic range was a 1-10, and you stayed in the 4-7 range in this recording, try a 2-5 range. But keep that awesome intensity you have. If you do stray into the 5+ range starting from 2, I think not only would it sound great, it'll really make people think "what.. is going on? This just sounds bizarre.. does he really mean for it to sound this way?" If you can make people believe that all of your performance, articulations, nuances are 100% intended and not due to their perceived "he's misinterpreting the piece", you'll have one hell of a rendition here (in my opinion).

Thank you for posting this, it's so nice to hear somoeone else getting the point of this piece.

[dcstudio]

if you really aren't jeeves... then my humble apologies...you do not deserve these comments---  but your speech pattern is very familiar as is this rendition.


your reaction here is, however, not at all like his would have been in the same situation.

so I will just leave it at that and ask...

how is it you can sight-read and this is your first look at Monlight Sonata?  or do you mean you read and this is you reading through it again.

[dcstudio]

 but the poster should very feel proud of this performance
.

why am I not surprised...  

[dcstudio]

well Nick, after listening to your compositions... I am starting to lean towards maybe not jeeves...  they show some understanding of music that I have not seen in thejeevers.


but the moonlight sonata... that's always a telltale sign..

it's like trying to pass for 21 at a bar  and  ordering a foo-foo drink (after much debate) like a Pina Colada--that just tells the bartender right away--"amateur and likely under-aged --check ID"

moonlight sonata is a pina colada... lol.

[perfect_pitch]

Thank you for posting this, it's so nice to hear somoeone else getting the point of this piece.

I'm sorry, but that line seems to convince me it IS jeeves.

NickC - Ignore Jeeves... His performance of Moonlight Sonata was more abyssmal than yours. This doesn't mean you should give up. Your performance wasn't bad, but it can be better. Don't be fooled into thinking that massive amounts of Rubato in a piece like this (because the Rubato did sound deliberate instead of slow due to sight-reading). It obstructs the sense of flow. Sure, of course music isn't set exactly to xxx bpm, but it should have the gentle ebb and flow, the up and down of gentle hills... not of the grand canyon.

You see, a few people in the past have tried to use excessive rubato as a cover for not being able to feel the inner flow of the music. It's the same with people who use too much body movement when playing simple pieces. They think that if they look like they need an exorcism, they're just really emotionally connected with the piece... however, that's bollocks.

[thejeev]

I'm sorry, but that line seems to convince me it IS jeeves.

NickC - Ignore Jeeves... His performance of Moonlight Sonata was more abyssmal than yours. This doesn't mean you should give up. Your performance wasn't bad, but it can be better. Don't be fooled into thinking that massive amounts of Rubato in a piece like this (because the Rubato did sound deliberate instead of slow due to sight-reading). It obstructs the sense of flow. Sure, of course music isn't set exactly to xxx bpm, but it should have the gentle ebb and flow, the up and down of gentle hills... not of the grand canyon.

I'd add: don't be fooled into allowing others to tell you how your rendition should sound. Just because they have the wrong idea about a piece and your rendition doesn't "fit" theirs doesn't mean you have to let them try to tell you how they should hear it. You obviously identified and "felt" the two-figure theme and built your "story" around that. I can hear it, I don't think others can, or ever will to be honest.

You know, because Beethoven writes pieces about Moonlight shining on a lake, perhaps there is a boat rocking gently back and forth. You know, this "flow" business people are talking about. I must say, LVB is a bit of an odd character to tell us to play it with the pedal down as if we fell off the boat and everything is supposed to sound muddled and distant because we're underwater.

It's a damn voice in his head you people, not a boat or a moon or any of that nonsense.

Hence my comment, make it sound convincing. People probably hate my rendition because of how "intentional" it was, and they think I am either stubborn or just musically inept.

You see, a few people in the past have tried to use excessive rubato as a cover for not being able to feel the inner flow of the music. It's the same with people who use too much body movement when playing simple pieces. They think that if they look like they need an exorcism, they're just really emotionally connected with the piece... however, that's bollocks.

Oh the irony in this.

He claims people like me can't possibly gauge the exact mindset of someone else. Now he's telling us that if a pianist is "engaged" with the piece, he or she is likely putting on an act. You can't do that sir, you have no idea what these people are thinking or feeling. Just because their gestures don't fit into your person idea of a piece doesn't mean theirs is wrong. In fact, I'm sorry to see you miss out on so much. Every piece of music has a moving shape associated with it. How one "engages" with this shape is none of your concern nor does it have any bearing on the quality of the rendition. Next time you "see" someone flaunting about, close your eyes and listen to the MUSIC.

[distantfieldrelative]

Jeeves...Jeeves...Jeeves

I:I must give you some respect for defending the OP and his interpretation of this piece. No one has an exact and accurate description about how a piece should be played; not because we have no hand written note from Beethoven but because art and especially musical art is not constricted by such immature notions such as rules and constants.

However it is a good idea to listen to the advice of pianists who have spent a great deal of time in the hobby that you or I have just begun. The grass is not the slave to the wind but when the wind blows the grass bends, When a more experienced pianist speaks it would be wise to listen and seriously consider their advice. Even if we plan to throw it away later.

II:We do not hate your rendition. We dislike it because it is not convincing. It sounds aporetic.
Stubborn? Yes. Musically inept? No. Just young. As afterwit goes I am sure this will become clear.

III: This last point I tend to agree with you on. The eyes cannot give an accurate report on musical content. However...the problem with this is pianists who have no musical ability and who also thrash about like a cat caught in a blender.

So when there is musicality in our poor feline it is veiled by its convulsions.

We are all cyptoscopophiliac, not literally but musicaly. But when our wish comes true we may tend to dislike our view. This too must be accounted for in the critique of others musical ideas.

[distantfieldrelative]

Pardon my grammatical mistakes.

[thejeev]

Jeeves...Jeeves...Jeeves

I:I must give you some respect for defending the OP and his interpretation of this piece. No one has an exact and accurate description about how a piece should be played; not because we have no hand written note from Beethoven but because art and especially musical art is not constricted by such immature notions such as rules and constants.

We do have a written note from Beethoven. It's his music. He gave explicit direction on how his piece is to be played. I feel the problem is, rather than people sitting down themselves, reading the note THOROUGHLY before even attempting to play it, thinking about it, asking qustions, they immediately allow their brains to "default" to other recordings and fall into the trap of saying "well whatever my vision is, it needs to end up sounding like this because this is how others play it." Not only is this lazy, it's boring. I've heard the "moonlight" rendition of moonlight hundreds of times, it's getting old for me.

However it is a good idea to listen to the advice of pianists who have spent a great deal of time in the hobby that you or I have just begun. The grass is not the slave to the wind but when the wind blows the grass bends, When a more experienced pianist speaks it would be wise to listen and seriously consider their advice. Even if we plan to throw it away later.

If a lawyer tried to sell us legal advice, citing his track record of handling over 1000 cases in the past, we're inclined to respect his opinion. If we look and little further and determine that not only did he seem to put no effort or actual "thought" into his cases, he actually lost almost all of them. He's a (on paper) professional, he wears a nice suit and tie, knows how to get his opinion out there and solidify it in any way possible. But at the end of the day, I see through these people, and ultimately either ignore them or try to make them see things from different perspectives. Nobody can blame me for the intent to do so, as they can simply ignore me, and no harm done.

II:We do not hate your rendition. We dislike it because it is not convincing. It sounds aporetic.
Stubborn? Yes. Musically inept? No. Just young. As afterwit goes I am sure this will become clear.

The word "convincing" presupposes that there is a clear vision of what this piece should sound like. Individuals such as myself perhaps realize that the typical "moonlight" people are used to, is a great deal away from what Beethoven really intended. That is why, in your mind, it's doesn't sound convincing, because you're presupposing I'm aiming for a "Moonlight" version of Moonlight, when actually what I'm doing is just repeating "O Ludvig" in a cynical way, because I believe it to be a voice in his head, hence the pedal and adagio/soft direction. I selectively use the word "believe", because God forbid if I claim to know something, a fairy falls down dead somewhere. Perhaps I may be treading onto unwelcome territory by saying this, but I wish people could muster the ability to look at a piece from a different perspective before raising their hands and convincing us about why their opinion matters.

III: This last point I tend to agree with you on. The eyes cannot give an accurate report on musical content. However...the problem with this is pianists who have no musical ability and who also thrash about like a cat caught in a blender.

Now here, musical ability is arguably subjective. Of course there are objective ways to determine whether or not a musician is "trained", such as keeping rhythm, technique etc. But that's not what music is about, music is music, technique is technique. Our physical bodies are unfortunate conduits that connect our emotional experience to the experience the lister has. Some people "bypass" the physical restrictions or body places on us through technique. What one hears as a beautiful work could sound like complete nonsense to another. I believe that the most popular pieces are .. popular .. because of how "accessible" they are. How well they were written. Even if you suck at the piano and played meticulously according to the direction, you'll still reach an audience and get an applause. There are pieces out there that nobody touches that are, in fact, works of genius.

So when there is musicality in our poor feline it is veiled by its convulsions.

We are all cyptoscopophiliac, not literally but musicaly. But when our wish comes true we may tend to dislike our view. This too must be accounted for in the critique of others musical ideas.

[distantfieldrelative]

You are totally correct.
 How could i have been so stupid and so blinded to such an obvious truth. perhaps there Are things in the ether that cause the common man to turn into some Stupid beast.
we should start a committee to help the rest of these poor fellows. they shouldn't be forced to live in the dark anymore. and maybe, just maybe their ignorance can be reversed without their knowledge.

how can we accomplish this jeeves??
 

[nickc]

This is turning out to be an interesting discussion. I'd like to offer a different take. Different day, different mood.

I'm a jazz pianist and a composer... so I look at classical music through a totally different window. I view music as raw emotional communication via organized sound.  My previous version was the musical equivalent to surrealism in visual art. An example being the Mona Lisa, if we take that and put it into a surrealist environment, it would be praised (or not.. who knows). But if we do the same with music, the result can often be so harsh that it can be shocking... which is great (just not always for the performer)

https://outbackart.com.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/mona-lisa.jpg

I'm playing on a keyboard and I have no soft pedal... which doesn't help my performance but it is what is.  

[dcstudio]

but the moonlight sonata... that's always a telltale sign..

it's like trying to pass for 21 at a bar  and  ordering a foo-foo drink (after much debate) like a Pina Colada--that just tells the bartender right away--"amateur and likely under-aged --check ID"

moonlight sonata is a pina colada... lol.

in spite of the midi musicality of his compositions and the softer character of his posts... the pina colada and the timely comment =

as the one who has the experience as a casino dealer---folks let me give you the odds. actually the lay in this case

5 to 1 it's the jeevers.  anyone care to place a bet.. I will fade this action no problem...lol.

in spite of above harshly different take = midi

[thejeev]

You are totally correct.
 How could i have been so stupid and so blinded to such an obvious truth. perhaps there Are things in the ether that cause the common man to turn into some Stupid beast.
we should start a committee to help the rest of these poor fellows. they shouldn't be forced to live in the dark anymore. and maybe, just maybe their ignorance can be reversed without their knowledge.

how can we accomplish this jeeves??
 

I wouldn't say it has anything to do with the "ether", but if you look at the things us stupid beasts have accomplished tens of thousands of years ago, such as I don't know, massive monolithic structures in perfect alignment with constellations,  you'll understand that we are not as "smart" as we like to think in our current form.

But to answer your question, step one would be to step back and rethink how we look at things. Changing our attitude, so to speak. Though this does seems impossible for most people. That's why science is our last chance, because it's the only institution we have where we have the balls to openly admit "we could be wrong about this", and everything is based on emprical observation. It doesn't matter who you are, what your credentials are, if you come up with an idea, and it agrees with observation, your "theory" must be given consideration and subject to scrutiny. You don't see this sort of altruistic open-minded attitude in geopolitics, social services, environmental concerns. Instead we get smoke and mirrors, and other higher-ups telling us how we should think and feel.

in spite of the midi musicality of his compositions and the softer character of his posts... the pina colada and the timely comment =

as the one who has the experience as a casino dealer---folks let me give you the odds. actually the lay in this case

5 to 1 it's the jeevers.  anyone care to place a bet.. I will fade this action no problem...lol.

I sure hope you didn't play in that casino. Maybe that's why you got out of there?

[nickc]

We are not the same person. This is who I am. I'm sorry you can't hear the musical differences between our performances.

[thejeev]

This is turning out to be an interesting discussion. I'd like to offer a different take. Different day, different mood.

I'm a jazz pianist and a composer... so I look at classical music through a totally different window. I view music as raw emotional communication via organized sound.  My previous version was the musical equivalent to surrealism in visual art. An example being the Mona Lisa, if we take that and put it into a surrealist environment, it would be praised (or not.. who knows). But if we do the same with music, the result can often be so harsh that it can be shocking... which is great (just not always for the performer)

https://outbackart.com.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/mona-lisa.jpg

I'm playing on a keyboard and I have no soft pedal... which doesn't help my performance but it is what is.  

This performance brought a smile to my face. Eureka, he gets it!

Just one question. Are you playing full octaves in the main melody? The main melody should just be single notes above the repeating triplets, unless the copy you're reading is written this way?

What are you thinking when playing this piece?

[distantfieldrelative]

 
I am lighting candles for the blind am I not?

[thejeev]

I am lighting candles for the blind am I not?

A wasted effort if they'll never get to see them. Especially the ones that have eyes but simply refuse to open them. Religious people light candles all the time thinking it will solve their problems.

[distantfieldrelative]

Ignorance is bliss I suppose.
.
.

[mjames]

We are not the same person. This is who I am. I'm sorry you can't hear the musical differences between our performances.

learn how to sit still lmfao

[perfect_pitch]

5 to 1 it's the jeevers.  anyone care to place a bet.. I will fade this action no problem...lol.

I already made my position clear that I believe it's the Jeevers.

[distantfieldrelative]

Perhaps Jeeves could disprove us by posting a video of him playing or at least a video of him.
Unless he is wrong there should be no problem as any fool with a phone can do this.

[perfect_pitch]

@ TheJeevs... To be honest, this constant replying within other peoples quotes, is quite annoying.

I'd add: don't be fooled into allowing others to tell you how your rendition should sound. Just because they have the wrong idea about a piece and your rendition doesn't "fit" theirs doesn't mean you have to let them try to tell you how they should hear it. You obviously identified and "felt" the two-figure theme and built your "story" around that. I can hear it, I don't think others can, or ever will to be honest.

Please pay no attention to the nutter who claims he knew the most intimate thoughts of dead composers just by listening to his music. His lunacy is clearly documented through his posts.

We're not trying to tell you exactly how to play this piece. We as piano teachers are here to give you parameters to stick to, in order to interpret the piece in a rather authentic manner. We don't tell you how to play it, but we give you ideas to play it in a manner that's fitting of Beethoven's music.

Many of the users here have tackled some fantastic works, and some difficult works through their learning as a pianist and a teacher. TheJeevs has posted one single recording, which was bad, sketchy and rather poor to be honest. He claims that his playing is of

I must say, LVB is a bit of an odd character to tell us to play it with the pedal down as if we fell off the boat and everything is supposed to sound muddled and distant because we're underwater.

No... he wrote that because at the time of writing it on his Streicher Fortepiano, the sustain didn't linger as long as modern pianos do. When you play this on a Fortepiano from the very early 19th century, it actually doesn't sound muddy at all... it's quite nice.

Now he's telling us that if a pianist is "engaged" with the piece, he or she is likely putting on an act. You can't do that sir, you have no idea what these people are thinking or feeling. Just because their gestures don't fit into your person idea of a piece doesn't mean theirs is wrong. In fact, I'm sorry to see you miss out on so much. Every piece of music has a moving shape associated with it. How one "engages" with this shape is none of your concern nor does it have any bearing on the quality of the rendition. Next time you "see" someone flaunting about, close your eyes and listen to the MUSIC.

You really fail to grasp english properly, either this or you seem very good at twisting peoples words. I never said that, at all. Let's just recap:

You see, a few people in the past have tried to use excessive rubato as a cover for not being able to feel the inner flow of the music. It's the same with people who use too much body movement when playing simple pieces. They think that if they look like they need an exorcism, they're just really emotionally connected with the piece... however, that's bollocks.

I said other people in the past... I never claimed that those who were engaged in the piece were faking anything, however considering you seem to believe that you really understand this piece, and that serious pianists have missed something entirely, given that COUNTLESS pianists (famous ones) would never play it as bad as you... I can only assume that you feel you are better than them? It seems to be the impression you give... that your ego seems as large as your over-inflated ego.

Next time you "see" someone flaunting about, close your eyes and listen to the MUSIC.

You realise I have perfect pitch... I always listen to the music, and never has anyone been so horrific to play the way you did. Please don't lecture me about listening to the music, because I can guarantee that I am far better at doing it than you.

I hope in time, it will be very clear to all to see what a fraud TheJeevs is...

[mjames]

Manso harsh

Just hug it out and be friends already.

[perfect_pitch]

Just hug it out and be friends already.

Nah... I might catch something...   

[ronde_des_sylphes]

You need to think about not just the rubato, but also the triplets. There are many places where spurious, unmarked, accents occur in your performance. By sorting these out a better, non-disruptive rendition will ensue. Good luck.

[dcstudio]

I sure hope you didn't play in that casino. Maybe that's why you got out of there?

I was a dealer... are you a psychic gambler too?  bring a bankroll and show me how you know how to play craps...  I will fade your action..  lol.   if you know as much about dice as you do about music... oh man it's gonna be a great day for me.


mama needs new shoes.

... 

[dcstudio]

We are not the same person. This is who I am. I'm sorry you can't hear the musical differences between our performances.

I saw this vid a while back..

  we are not denying the fact that these performances and the recording done by jeeves are done by two completely different pianists. 

didn't you audition for Berklee?  I remember you.