Music and maths -struggle as adult returning to lessons

[tinyhands]

Hello, I was wondering if any other adult returners have a similar problem to me or understand a problem I have.  I recently returned to piano aged 40 after just over a 23 year break, last exam was grade 5 in 1992 (?)  now taking lessons with a brilliant teacher and we are looking at Grade 6 standard work. So the problem I have is I really struggled with Theory years ago.. Probably why I quit lessons after grade 5  as I didn't have my grade 5 theory to progress( I was ABRSM didn't know about Trinity exams them) I was also not great at maths in school and remember getting so confused at piano lessons with note values/ time signatures etc. So now as an adult I,m going back to learning theory from the very beginning as I do find it interesting plus I think it's important but I honestly feel like I don't 'get it ' at all!! Can't believe at aged 40 I suddenly can revert back to feeling that anxious frustrated way and so annoyed with myself. The most basic theory I can't get my head round and at lessons at times, when my teacher is explaining it I honestly feel myself feeling a child again back in maths class and feeling tearful and frustrated that I don't 'get' it! She is lovely and very patient but also says it's an unusual thing for her as I play pieces after a beginner level  yet I am almost like a complete beginner with the theory. The problem is then when she explains basic things I relate them to harder pieces which I am playing and end up getting confused ( does that make sense) I think I try to 'understand it' too much.. She says just learn it and that I possibly overthink it too much. She also said children accept theory much easier whereas as an adult I am looking to understand 'why' Also the irony is my two sisters have Mathematic degrees and find it bizarre that I struggle with simple concepts. Do you think that some people have a mental block with mathematics and this in turn makes it harder with the theory? I'm hoping one day it will all click and fall into place. Also sometimes I wonder have I just put a mental block up since childhood that I can't do maths... So that makes it harder?? Dunno.. It would be interesting to hear what others think... Ps for example with maths.. I can't get my head around why Pi is infinite... (??) My sister thinks this is hilarious..  i say 'why cant they just stick a number on the end?' ??  lol!! 

[sf_hombre]

Wall of text:  did not read.  Punctuation is your friend.

[dsuser]

I totally understand your situation   I had the same problem while studying and I hated writing different essays about the theory or solving math problems. I am happy that I can use different sites like  College Writing Skills to get all the things done.  

[irrational]

Just a comment on the Mathematics.
I find that often people have an artificial "block" when it comes to numbers when its called "Maths" but have no problem using the exact same concepts somewhere else.

For instance, if you have issues with note values and counting, do you have issues with time?
As in, hour, 30 minutes, quarter of an hour? Full note, half note, quarter note?
Its all just dividing things which you do daily on many many things.
A 3rd, 5th, octave. Having issues seeing those when you play? Its all numbers.

Anyway. The trick is often to abstract the concept to something else if its easier. Find something else that amounts to the same thing but is easier to visualise and grasp for your interest and knowledge set. I think the anxiety is more a boat without anchor feeling. If you can relate the concepts to something you know, it becomes anchored and stable.

As with most things, it is often just really simple and face value.
As the Hitchhiker's Guide states. "Don't Panic".

[dcstudio]

Just a comment on the Mathematics.
I find that often people have an artificial "block" when it comes to numbers when its called "Maths" but have no problem using the exact same concepts somewhere else.

this is so freakin true at the piano...  

to illustrate this point I will teach a student a piece by ear or rote first and when they have mastered it--they think it's something I just made up--I will put the music in front of them without telling them it's the same piece.   The reaction is UNIVERSAL

"WHAT!! I can't play THAT!!!"

then I smile at them  and  say "yes you can and you already have."

I do so enjoy the look of utter befuddlement on the face of the student each time I do this...lol



   Your ability to play and your ability to read are not the same thing nor is being able to play at a certain level an indicator of how well you understand music in general.  

you sound like you really wanted this when you were young...  if you only knew the hang-ups people pile in with piano lessons.   As soon as you clear your mind of these -- your playing will improve very rapidly.  I hear a lot of self-doubt that you believe is caused by your lack of theory knowledge...it is--but that's not all of it.  now that you are older you want to "understand" what you are doing... as a kid you were happy to just get through your pieces..

When you were younger someone knocked you because you could play but you didn't know "theory"--this had a profound impact on your perception of exactly what "theory" is--in your mind it is something beyond your ability to comprehend...  that's what's leftover from your past--and it's a real bugger to get over.

let me tell you a secret--they probably didn't understand it either...lol


study theory--but stop calling it THEORY.. there are billions of websites..  it doesn't matter where you get the info... it's WAY easier to understand than you think.  Open your mind.

the level of neurosis you are displaying here indicates that you have the potential to be a BRILLIANT musician...lol.

[quantum]

the level of neurosis you are displaying here indicates that you have the potential to be a BRILLIANT musician...lol.

I suspect similar.

I can't get my head around why Pi is infinite...

You don't need to know why Pi is infinite in order to use Pi.  

Example: If all you need is area of a circle πr² is all you need to know.  Trying to understand the why and how of Pi goes beyond the scope of your original problem, and only complicates matters.  Of course you can make inquiry into Pi but that is a whole different stage of research - you don't need that level of understanding if your goal is to only solve a simple area problem.

Math is about making our lives easier.  It is about taking tasks that would otherwise be wordy, tedious, and laborious, and packaging them up into neat and tidy concepts that are much easier to deal with and manipulate.  

This leads us to music theory, which does a similar thing.  It allows us to describe tendencies in real music using terminology and concepts that make it easier to think and converse with others about what is going on.  

Example: You could say: there is an ascending step-wise line of eight pitches starting on E, following that F#, after that, G#, then A, then B, C#, D# and ending on E.  The prevailing semitone pattern of the sequence follows: tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone.   Or you could simply say E major scale.  The former is a mouthful to say, yet has components that lead to the understanding of the construction of scales.  If you wanted to ask a fellow musician to play the said pattern of notes, which description would you deem more judicious?  Conversations sure could get awkward if we didn't have established theoretical terminology. 

The problem with a lot of academically taught subjects, is that academic rigor takes precedence over all other things.  Often the topic itself gets lost in the dogma.  I've found many textbooks have been written for an audience of peers, as opposed to an audience of first-timers to the subject.  Unfortunately, many students latch on to this and end up with the perception that music theory is about mind-numbing brain twisting exercises that seem to have nothing to do with the music they are playing.  It may be a case of being taught how to construct a space shuttle before one has learned to drive a car.  

to illustrate this point I will teach a student a piece by ear or rote first and when they have mastered it--they think it's something I just made up--I will put the music in front of them without telling them it's the same piece.   The reaction is UNIVERSAL

"WHAT!! I can't play THAT!!!"

then I smile at them  and  say "yes you can and you already have."

The example given by dcstudtio: illustrates how one can learn by means of understanding the big picture first, then gradually refining one's skills and abilities in layers.  

When reading theory texts, have a goal in mind.  Pure research for the sake of digging deeper and deeper is fun an all, but you need to keep a perspective.  What is the point where it is enough to carry out the musical task.  Do you need to know the development of temperament systems and what has led to our current use of equal temperament in order to practice your E major scale?  No, but it is a fascinating subject if you choose to dig in, but you don't have to.  

[dcstudio]

 If you wanted to ask a fellow musician to play the said pattern of notes, which description would you deem more judicious?  Conversations sure could get awkward if we didn't have established theoretical terminology.  

conversations get really awkward when someone uses established theoretical terminology but has no clue what they are saying.   this happens so much...   people hear these terms and they think they know what they mean but they don't.   God help you if one of these people is trying to tell you what they want you to play... the worst part.. they always blame your lack of understanding not that they are telling you point blank to do something that they don't want you to do.

I had a session in the recording studio once for a guy who had written a bunch of children's tunes... he kept telling me he didn't want "counterpoint"-- which to someone with my training is a very clear request.   I was being vertical as hell...  he said I was doing it wrong... it was counterpoint.  This is where the "pro" in you must kick in because I tell you what I was seething with anger at this point..LOL... very calmly we discussed what he wanted and I finally learned what he meant.

he defined "counterpoint" as -- contrary to the point of the song... his buddy played in the symphony so he had picked up some lingo and thought he would impress me.   I made $500 bucks on that session... so I had to refrain from rolling on the floor in tears but inside I was laughing my A$$ off.   What he wanted, was counterpoint--"like Bach"  

and  those are the glamorous tales of the session musician...

it's so easy to pick that type out...  just take a deep breath and try to figure out what they want.

[quantum]

conversations get really awkward when someone uses established theoretical terminology but has no clue what they are saying.  

That is another topic in itself.  If you say you want a banana but really want an apple... 

[pianocat3]

Well I just say stuff like " I have no idea what you are talking about" to my teacher.  One time she got off on a tangent with 6/8 time and why a "whole" rest wasn't OK, had to be dotted quarters. ..

OK so idk if you can get this, but there is a company called the great courses, and the music theory course by Dr. Greenberg, I can't say enough good about it. Learned all my modes, why is it called perfect fourth and fifth,  circle of fifths, etc with NO music reading required. It will have to be watched more than once. I am much more fluent in music speak than before, and careful about the words pitch vs note.  OK can get it from the library, but IMO, it's worth the money. All those questions about why we happen to have music set up the way it is, answered!! I hardly ever am totally clueless anymore when the teacher gets enthused on a theory subject.

Also, I have practiced things where I am behind my level by playing easier music. So my lack of counting, played easy music. Reading by intervals, playing easy music and forcing myself to read by intervals.

[tinyhands]

Thanks everyone, interesting for me to hear your different opinions. it's particularly compound time I was struggling with. I think I was thinking it was like fractions in maths  My teacher said something the last lesson in a really basic way and I was like. 'Ahhh!!! I get it now!!'  She then said she had not  wanted to patronise me as I wasn't a kid , so I think she was almost teaching me a too advanced concept when I just needed the basics.. So now I told her.. 'Pitch it to me like you would your 7 year olds..'  Suppose that's the hard bit of teaching, stripping it right back to basics. 😂😂
I also think as in the UK as we say 'crotchet, minums' for note values I still get a bit confused.  It would maybe make more sense to me just now as a beginner if it was like the US ' quarter notes , whole notes' for example.


Pianocat3 - thank you for your recommendations 👌🏼I'll check them out.

I don't know how to inset quotes to reply ( I'm very new to this site) 😊 but thanks so much for taking time to reply and offer advice. Dcstudio , quantum , irrational and others. 

[tinyhands]

Desuser thanks too, missed you out 

[quantum]

Thanks everyone, interesting for me to hear your different opinions. it's particularly compound time I was struggling with. I think I was thinking it was like fractions in maths  My teacher said something the last lesson in a really basic way and I was like. 'Ahhh!!! I get it now!!'  

You are not alone here.  When the concept of compound time clicked for me it was a teacher explaining it, and how it fit in with simple time.  A lot of music textbooks focused on the math.  

[dcstudio]

That is another topic in itself.  If you say you want a banana but really want an apple...  

OFF TOPIC but good story

you wouldn't believe how many times I have been told to play a concerto when what they wanted was a fugue.

"do you know that song concerto"

  dcstudio thinks then plays the Greig intro  

man shakes his head and looks at dcstudio like she's stupid  
  " it's like...you know...like in the Dracula movies... I think it's a Mozart song"

  dcstudio plays Toccata and Fugue in Dminor opening

  man starts jumping up and down and screaming at his friends on the other side of the room while stuffing $20 in dcstudio's jar

"THAT'S IT!! it's Mozart like I said...right?"

 " yes sir, you betcha!  wow you must have played the piano huh?  Anything else I can play for you, sir... more Mozart song perhaps?"   says dcstudio.

after the gig dcstudio goes and buys designer shoes for her daughter  

[bernadette60614]

I overtip because I still have trouble figuring out 15% in my head!

My teacher has assigned me what appear to be theory books for junior high school students.  I do them.  So long as there are little dancing teddy bears along the margins, I just do them.

I learn the way I have to learn to learn what I need to learn.

One of the awful...but great things...about being an adult student is that it has reduced me to being a perplexed kid again.  I would add to Don't Panic...if you need to go back to an elementary school level to learn something, just accept it.  Otherwise, I find I just stand in the way of my own progress.