Getting Frustrated

[kevingreiner]

 Hello,

Has anyone felt like ripping out all of the keys on their piano and burning the rest of the parts because of a frustrating section in a piece? I've been working on Chopin's Op. 48 No. 1 for some time now. I've worked on it a couple of years ago and let go of it because I can't get the rhythm down. It is honestly not that bad besides the 4 against 3 polyrhythms.

I have a fantastic teacher who can play these types of rhythms and explain them very well. She has broken the 4 against 3 sections down as much as possible. From only playing the top part of the chords, to playing the right hand while I play the left hand, to playing one beat at a time, tapping away from the piano, singing the melody, and even using the metronome. I've been practicing this rhythm for about two months now and I have no progress. I've spent hours a day with it and I fully understand the concept but I cannot put the rhythm hands together even as slow as possible.

What am I doing wrongs?

[pencilart3]

Has anyone felt like ripping out all of the keys on their piano and burning the rest of the parts because Chopin's Op. 48 No. 1

The piece has haunted many to the point of insanity. Perhaps even the composer himself.

[mjames]

Oh yeah, the doppio movimento sounds harsh.  

Okay, I'm assuming you have the piece ingrained in your muscles right? Then this what I would do, take your recording of choice, listen to the sections in question, and ingrain that into your head. Now play the left hand separately in rhythm, think of a particular part with the 4 against 3 and instead of doing it methodically with the metronome and slow practice just go RIGHT INTO it. Why I'm trying to say is instead of trying to get it right with "maths" and counting just try using your musical intuition as well. Align the motions of your hands with what you hear in head.

This particular method has really helped me in "feeling" polyrythms and though I wouldn't use it as a substitute for other learning methods, it certainly helps when I'm learning a piece.

Just my two cents. Good luck.

[adodd81802]

Hello,

Has anyone felt like ripping out all of the keys on their piano and burning the rest of the parts because of a frustrating section in a piece? I've been working on Chopin's Op. 48 No. 1 for some time now. I've worked on it a couple of years ago and let go of it because I can't get the rhythm down. It is honestly not that bad besides the 4 against 3 polyrhythms.

I have a fantastic teacher who can play these types of rhythms and explain them very well. She has broken the 4 against 3 sections down as much as possible. From only playing the top part of the chords, to playing the right hand while I play the left hand, to playing one beat at a time, tapping away from the piano, singing the melody, and even using the metronome. I've been practicing this rhythm for about two months now and I have no progress. I've spent hours a day with it and I fully understand the concept but I cannot put the rhythm hands together even as slow as possible.

What am I doing wrongs?

My old piano teacher when I was much younger taught me a simple thing which always helped me for slow practice with these rhythms and worked really well.

Was to sound out the words Dear-Little-Daffodil with each syllable representing notes. assuming the 4 is in the right hand.

dear = both hands
lit = right
tle = left
da = right
ffo = left
dil = right

I attached a snippet from the Posth Nocturne where I first encountered the rhythm. Different scores mark the placement differently, and with the trill it makes it a little more awkward, so you have to really slow down and work out how many revolutions of the trill you can fit into the rhythm without slowing down the left hand.

I think trying to work this out exactly mathematically would be a lot more difficult. I found this example in a another forum

1     2     3     4     1
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
>       >       >       >
1       2       3        1


As you can see the beat is on the 3 notes and there is a slight difference in the gaps between the notes, it's not exactly half, however I think you can concentrate on the timing more when you're confident with the concept...

 so If I had struggled with playing this here's how I would consider the practicing of this.

with a 3 beat metronome firstly hitting the first notes together than continuing the left hand pulse by playing the remainder left notes on the beats then add the right hand note at the end after the beat. Practice that until you're satisfied that your right hand can play off beat

After that I'd also practice in the same way the first 2 notes together, than quickly hitting the right hand again before the beat, hitting the left hand on the beat and if confident hitting the right hand again.

[quantum]

You might want to say "Pass the golden butter"
The rhythm being: dotted eighth, sixteenth, eighth, eighth, sixteenth, dotted eighth. This is the rhythm you hear when combining both right and left hands. 

The gist of it is: both hands together on the first beat, alternating between hands after that. 

Do the following clapping / counting exercise.  You need to count out loud and clap for it to be effective.

- RH in 4, LH in 3, count in 3
- RH in 4, LH in 3, count in 4
- RH in 3, LH in 4, count in 4
- RH in 3, LH in 4, count in 3

Don't stop between sections of the exercise, aim to transition seamlessly between steps.  When you are more comfortable with it, freely switch between variants.

If you want to extend the exercise, walk rhythmically in 2 while counting and clapping in 3 and 4. 

***

When you are ready to apply it to the piece, do as mjames instructed.  Use intuition first, then refine the details of 4 against 3. 

[kevingreiner]

Oh yeah, the doppio movimento sounds harsh.  

Okay, I'm assuming you have the piece ingrained in your muscles right? Then this what I would do, take your recording of choice, listen to the sections in question, and ingrain that into your head. Now play the left hand separately in rhythm, think of a particular part with the 4 against 3 and instead of doing it methodically with the metronome and slow practice just go RIGHT INTO it. Why I'm trying to say is instead of trying to get it right with "maths" and counting just try using your musical intuition as well. Align the motions of your hands with what you hear in head.

This particular method has really helped me in "feeling" polyrythms and though I wouldn't use it as a substitute for other learning methods, it certainly helps when I'm learning a piece.

Just my two cents. Good luck.

I'll give it a shot tonight. I have literally tried all the methods everyone posted here before and they didn't help. The sayings do not help because they are not the melody of the piece. I understand the math so maybe what you are saying will benefit me I will let you all know how my practice goes. Thank you all for the tips.

[mjames]

Good luck! I really hope it works out for you.

[kevingreiner]

Good luck! I really hope it works out for you.

Thank you! Today at my lessons I finally got it down. It turns out I was playing the right hand twice as fast as it should be during the 4 against 3 sections. Every time I would reach those phrases I'd rush them making the rhythm sound off.

 I played with the metronome and I was able to hear the difference when I slowed my right hand down. The tempo I played at was 60 and the eighth note got the click. Before when I was playing wrong, the sixteenth notes came together with the click because of how fast I was playing them. When I slowed down, everything flowed together and I got it right after hours of practicing wrongly.

Thank you for your help! 😀