Getting to Grade 8 from scratch in one year.

[thomascarding]

Hi all,

A couple of months ago I started a project to see if it's possible to get to Grade 8 piano (ABRSM) from scratch in just a year. If anyone is interested in checking out my progress, you can find my blog here: www.proficiencyproject.com

Cheers,
Tom

[mjames]

it is

if youre like ajlong that is

[outin]

This should be entertaining...we haven't even had any Chopin etude as the piece to learn threads lately...

I'm a bit curious: How does your teacher feel about your project?

[thomascarding]

Good question. My teacher is actually a good friend of mine who I had talked to about the project before roping him in to teach me. Basically when I was researching the idea I said that I wanted to learn intensively and was aiming to practice 40 hours per week. I asked him what was a sensible goal and even said something along the lines of 'obviously Grade 8 in a year isn't possible' - but then he talked me into it! I figured if he thought it was possible then he was definitely the right teacher for me!

[dcstudio]

so you are starting out at 40 hrs a week practicing?

wow.

might I ask what prompted you to do this?  was there a specific piece that spoke to you? did you always want to play?  have you recently had a major life event?  how old are you?  how old is your teacher?

it's possible... if you are one of those people whose brain is naturally formatted to music, and you have incredible dexterity...  and your IQ is at or near genius.  I have seen several autistic students progress very rapidly--not quite to grade 8 in a year....but...close.

the thing is... you sound pretty adept socially... not like a pianist at all.   lol.  IDK--maybe after a few weeks of practicing 8 hours a day your musical neurosis will surface.

at present you have absolutely no idea what you are taking on..  this is a Herculean task if ever there was one.  There's way more to reaching grade 8 than learning to play the tunes.  


Still I am rooting for you!  

[adodd81802]

I don't want to appear delusional here.

But I think in the perfect environment, it's probably possible.

Although interestingly somebody tried something similar with Chopin's Ballade OP 23 (admittedly considerably more difficult than grade and I don't think he practiced 40 hours a week, either way it failed miserably.


https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/jan/12/play-it-again-chopin-ballade-no-1-alan-rusbridger

I will say that from 0 to 40 hours a week for the immediate beginner, fatigue is probably going to kick in pretty quickly, and I think regular breaks would be needed to really adopt that kind of study plan, mentally it would be exhausting if you're not used to that level.

[adodd81802]

This should be entertaining...we haven't even had any Chopin etude as the piece to learn threads lately...

Funny stuff.

[thomascarding]

so you are starting out at 40 hrs a week practicing?

wow.

might I ask what prompted you to do this?  was there a specific piece that spoke to you? did you always want to play?  have you recently had a major life event?  how old are you?  how old is your teacher?

it's possible... if you are one of those people whose brain is naturally formatted to music, and you have incredible dexterity...  and your IQ is at or near genius.  I have seen several autistic students progress very rapidly--not quite to grade 8 in a year....but...close.

the thing is... you sound pretty adept socially... not like a pianist at all.   lol.  IDK--maybe after a few weeks of practicing 8 hours a day your musical neurosis will surface.

at present you have absolutely no idea what you are taking on..  this is a Herculean task if ever there was one.  There's way more to reaching grade 8 than learning to play the tunes.  


Still I am rooting for you!  

It's funny, I get asked why I'm doing this quite a lot and it's never an easy question to answer. To me the whole project makes sense and ties in with so much of my life philosophy - but that's never easy to put into words. I do have a stab at answering it on the FAQ page on my blog, but I don't think it fully encompasses my thinking. I guess the most succinct and most elaborate explanation are the same - I'm doing it because I want to :-) I guess I've always wanted to be a good musician, but more in a typical dreamer sense, rather than thinking I'm actually going to put in the hours and get there. I guess I figured that I could always dream about it, or I could just do it. I'm 28 by the way, as is my teacher. It gives me plenty of time to keep going if I don't get there in a year I guess...

I'm not autistic, though do tend to get somewhat obsessive when I take up new things. The downside is that my attention tends to flit from one thing to the next - so I have to be much more dedicated this time around if this project is going to succeed.

There wasn't a particular piece that called me to start the project. Though me teacher has been giving me some required listening to do (suggestions most welcome) and Chopin's nocturnes are what have spoken to me the most so far.

[dcstudio]

I will say that from 0 to 40 hours a week for the immediate beginner, fatigue is probably going to kick in pretty quickly, and I think regular breaks would be needed to really adopt that kind of study plan, mentally it would be exhausting if you're not used to that level.

what would a beginner do for 8 hours?  I put in that kind of time sometimes and it's mentally grueling to me... and I have decades at this.  

AJ said he did Hanon 4 hours a day when he started.   However, AJ is also one of those "exceptions" to the rule--not to mention his teacher is Josh Wright.

I am dying to see the plan of action you and your teacher will come up with.. please post it!

[dcstudio]

It's funny, I get asked why I'm doing this quite a lot and it's never an easy question to answer.

I have been teaching more than 20 years and I have seen many like you come walking through the door.  There are two types--to make a sweeping generalization---those who are returning and those who start fresh.   Those who are returning always have hang-ups leftover from their childhood piano lessons..  sometimes they are so ingrained that it's nearly impossible to overcome.  They are usually complete neurotics who continuously feel that they are "doing it wrong." 

Those who start fresh are a bit tricky to read...  usually some event has awakened their desire to play--after the movie "The Pianist" (a must see btw!!!)   my studio filled up with men in their late 20's and early 30's who worshipped Chopin Nocturnes.  Sometimes it's a mid-life crisis thing and other times it's just a vague dream they have always had.  Often times these lifelong piano fantasies lead to serious misconceptions about what it means to learn to  play though. Most of the time when the going gets tough the adult student bails on all of it.  It usually happens after they attend the recital and get totally blown out of the water by an 8 year old.  They convince themselves that it's only possible to be great if you start out as a toddler which is why this mindset perpetuates in spite of evidence to the contrary. 

If you were actually to pull this off--and really be a solid grade 8--both in skill and in the understanding of music theory--in a year...  at 28--that would be something.

still rooting for you.    

[recnepspencer]

Wow 40 hours a week! You're gonna be pretty dang good. I'd love to see someone in modern time master te piano like Franz liszt. He practiced about 8 hours per day and he was a true master. At one point he SIGHT READ Chopin's etudes. Chopin said he played them slightly too fast and he was jealous of how well he played them. If you are practicing 40 hours a week maybe you could achieve that in like 10 years lol. Anyways, that's an awesome goal to achieve level 8 in 1 year. What is your practice schedule like?

[mjames]

I don't want to appear delusional here.

But I think in the perfect environment, it's probably possible.

Although interestingly somebody tried something similar with Chopin's Ballade OP 23 (admittedly considerably more difficult than grade and I don't think he practiced 40 hours a week, either way it failed miserably.


https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/jan/12/play-it-again-chopin-ballade-no-1-alan-rusbridger

I will say that from 0 to 40 hours a week for the immediate beginner, fatigue is probably going to kick in pretty quickly, and I think regular breaks would be needed to really adopt that kind of study plan, mentally it would be exhausting if you're not used to that level.

hmm I sort of agree with you

I think its completely possible to learn a difficult piece in a short period of time, if you carefully tailor what you learn to your "ultimate goal"

However I dont believe that learning for example a really tough piece makes you an advanced pianist...yet.

For example I started playing 3yrs and 8 months ago, and before I actually reached a my first year of piano I was capable of playing several grade 7 pieces. Someone a lot better than me even helped me prepare for a concert, so you can say I got them up to a "performance level"

But I wouldnt have considered myself a "grade 7 pianist"....not even close. What I'm saying is playing a few grade 8 pieces doesnt make you a "grade 8 pianist" kinda like the op. 23 wont make you a diploma+ pianist. A lot more goes into it, like ear training, reading music, theory, application of theory etc

Almost 4 years in I can finally claim myself to be at least "grade 7 pianist." Reading through the music is no longer torture, it's actually enjoyable, learning the technique required for a grade 7 piece is no longer torture, but an enjoyable experience, AND I'm lot better (and take a lot less time) at putting the music into an "acceptable" level. Still need to brush up on my theory though.

...The better I get the more I realize the op.23 isn't an impossible goal. With a great guide, I believe that a beginner can play it within a few years however it would require an immense amount of dedication and GOOD practice. Playing "a lot" just isnt good enough. Agree with DcStudio, I would love to see his teacher's plan.

btw addody, watch out for an op. 44 in the audition room soon. Even though you advised against it, I still went through it. It's coming up quite nicely. I will prove you wrong. MUAHAH

AJ said he did Hanon 4 hours a day when he started.   However, AJ is also one of those "exceptions" to the rule--not to mention his teacher is Josh Wright.

what......I always thought he was self-taught. Didn't know lmfao. Josh has like the most awesome+helpful videos ever. though that certainly doesnt make aj any less amazing. he's still crazy.

I can't even bare to practice my scales for more than 15mins...4hours...*** u crazy

[kalospiano]

I'm so jealous, I wish I had 8 hours a day to practice... stupid work, stealing 40 hours a week of my life from me   I think that if you have so much time and if you have a good study plan (and hopefully a good teacher), provided that you stick to it, your goal is more than attainable. Your progress after two months seems good already. Best of luck!!

[outin]

Good question. My teacher is actually a good friend of mine who I had talked to about the project before roping him in to teach me. Basically when I was researching the idea I said that I wanted to learn intensively and was aiming to practice 40 hours per week. I asked him what was a sensible goal and even said something along the lines of 'obviously Grade 8 in a year isn't possible' - but then he talked me into it! I figured if he thought it was possible then he was definitely the right teacher for me!

So one more question:
What exactly do you mean by "getting to grade 8"? To pass an exam or just to play a few pieces that are considered grade 8, and by which body, ABRSM?

It is quite possible to play a few pieces of that level after a year of good teaching and plenty of practice. But to be generally able to play or learn in a reasonable time any music from grades 6-8 is a different matter. That requires a very good skillset that I think needs more time to develope and get consistent. The kinds of skills required for higher level pianism normally need to mature and the time between practice is just as important as practice time. To cramp all this into one year seems too much for any "normal" person. Freaks of nature are a different matter...

[adodd81802]

hmm I sort of agree with you

I think its completely possible to learn a difficult piece in a short period of time, if you carefully tailor what you learn to your "ultimate goal"

However I dont believe that learning for example a really tough piece makes you an advanced pianist...yet.

For example I started playing 3yrs and 8 months ago, and before I actually reached a my first year of piano I was capable of playing several grade 7 pieces. Someone a lot better than me even helped me prepare for a concert, so you can say I got them up to a "performance level"

But I wouldnt have considered myself a "grade 7 pianist"....not even close. What I'm saying is playing a few grade 8 pieces doesnt make you a "grade 8 pianist" kinda like the op. 23 wont make you a diploma+ pianist. A lot more goes into it, like ear training, reading music, theory, application of theory etc

Almost 4 years in I can finally claim myself to be at least "grade 7 pianist." Reading through the music is no longer torture, it's actually enjoyable, learning the technique required for a grade 7 piece is no longer torture, but an enjoyable experience, AND I'm lot better (and take a lot less time) at putting the music into an "acceptable" level. Still need to brush up on my theory though.

...The better I get the more I realize the op.23 isn't an impossible goal. With a great guide, I believe that a beginner can play it within a few years however it would require an immense amount of dedication and GOOD practice. Playing "a lot" just isnt good enough. Agree with DcStudio, I would love to see his teacher's plan.

btw addody, watch out for an op. 44 in the audition room soon. Even though you advised against it, I still went through it. It's coming up quite nicely. I will prove you wrong. MUAHAH

what......I always thought he was self-taught. Didn't know lmfao. Josh has like the most awesome+helpful videos ever. though that certainly doesnt make aj any less amazing. he's still crazy.

I can't even bare to practice my scales for more than 15mins...4hours...*** u crazy

I probably didn't elaborate enough on my point but I do also agree with what you have put here.

Playing ONE grade 8 piece doesn't make you grade 8. which is probably why people take their time with grades because there are many aspects to being "grade 8" which now you say it like that, most likely cannot really be achieved in a year.

I think the OP should be stating 1 year to be able to play a grade 8 piece. As that's totally do-able.

To be truely classed as "grade 8" probably isn't.

I look forward to your audition on that piece by the way, I am actually yet to see you post a full audition?

BTW you'll be happy to know i'll be posting an audition soon, The Szymanowska Nocturne I know you're so looking forward to hearing. I'm performing for a concert next month so i'm getting it up to scratch.

[mjames]

these guys never come back tho. like one or two posts and then vanish

REMEMBER THE SCHERZO IN TWO YEARS...

It's been almost a year. No update.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=57974.0

[outin]

these guys never come back tho. like one or two posts and then vanish

REMEMBER THE SCHERZO IN TWO YEARS...

It's been almost a year. No update.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=57974.0

I guess he has not time to update, he must be practicing like hell for his upcoming recital... We just have to go to Amsterdam in a month to hear him play!

[where_july]

Guys, with all the respect to you... but he is doing very good progress (to my humble opinion), showing results in his blog. For past 3 months already.

And yes his work and attitude ethics, his life ideology are something outstanding. Somenthing to learn from. And the questions above are all answred there. Sometmes between the lines.

Of course time will tell, but as for me I have learned my lesson given by this guy.

Regards,
V.

[dcstudio]

Guys, with all the respect to you... but he is doing very good progress (to my humble opinion), showing results in his blog. For past 3 months already.

And yes his work and attitude ethics, his life ideology are something outstanding. Somenthing to learn from. And the questions above are all answred there. Sometmes between the lines.

Of course time will tell, but as for me I have learned my lesson given by this guy.

Regards,
V.

did I miss something?  what are you saying?

[where_july]

did I miss something?  what are you saying?

Morning, dcstudio.

I am saying: a bit of sarcasm and criticism guys expressed above is irrelevant towards the OP. It is better to go ans see his progress instead. And probably comment it (maybe with sarcasm if relevant then). That would be a constructive approach. I believe.

Have a good day,
V.

[dcstudio]

Morning, dcstudio.

I am saying: a bit of sarcasm and criticism guys expressed above is irrelevant towards the OP. It is better to go ans see his progress instead. And probably comment it (maybe with sarcasm if relevant then). That would be a constructive approach. I believe.

Have a good day,
V.

I understand your desire to defend your friend... but please consider our side as well.  People come through here all the time with this same claim... maybe worded differently but they are all after the same thing..   to be able to play like those of us who have spent decades at our instruments--without the decades.    Forgive us here at the forum if we tend to not jump up and down in excitement that someone has decided to get to grade 8.  Forgive us again if we snicker--it's not ab.     

 This OP doesn't seem to have the arrogance that is so common among ppl who make this claim--and that's good because if he was a pretentious dillwad like some of the others we would have an "epic troll" thread happening for sure.

[outin]

I am saying: a bit of sarcasm and criticism guys expressed above is irrelevant towards the OP. It is better to go ans see his progress instead. And probably comment it (maybe with sarcasm if relevant then). That would be a constructive approach. I believe.

He announced his project here so he made it open to critisism. Since other beginners may be tempted to try something similar I think it's only fair to make it clear that this is a somewhat impossible mission. Not impossible as never to be done but impossible in the statistical sense. That is if he really means he expects to play the piano as well in a year as someone who has studied the piano for 6-8 years and passed the grade 8 exam. If he only wants to somewhat get through a couple of pieces graded level 8, then it's possible but not really worth it IMO.

If we wait until the year has passed, he will have little benefit from what we tell him. But if we can make him understand what exactly it is that he is trying to do (I don't think he has any idea), it might help him get through the moments when it really gets tough and he starts to realize that he might not be able to make it. Then he might feel ok about it and still continue to study instead of just quitting in frustrating.

[mjames]

yes i think OP doesnt understand what it means to be grade 8. I was like that too. I thought it was just about playing pieces and thats it

nope
nope
nope

If playing piano was that easy, then wed all be virtousos. Man I was so naive...

plus i already looked at his blog...
What I want for OP is not to accomplish his goal
What I want is that if he realizes he might not reach his goal for the year, I want him to discover the joy of learning and playing piano. I hope that he develops a life long love for piano...
I really like his attitude, would love to see him stick around the forums for a long time. : )
we can both rave about how we learned our dream pieces
"OMG I JUST LEARNED MOONLIGHT SONATA!!"
"OMG I JUST LEARNED SCHERZO"
ok nvm getting weird in here

[outin]

yes i think OP doesnt understand what it means to be grade 8. I was like that too.

I think almost every late beginner is like that...It's just natural, because we just could not know...

To be honest, I think that if someone really does have the exceptional qualities needed to accomplish something like that, they would be glued to the piano and immersed in music, not writing blogs or hanging out here...not that there's anything wrong with either

[mjames]

I think almost every late beginner is like that...It's just natural, because we just could not know...

To be honest, I think that if someone really does have the exceptional qualities needed to accomplish something like that, they would be glued to the piano and immersed in music, not writing blogs or hanging out here...not that there's anything wrong with either

idk
I love practicing piano but right now my head can honestly only handle like 3-4hours a day anything more than that and I will implode...

[outin]

idk
I love practicing piano but right now my head can honestly only handle like 3-4hours a day anything more than that and I will implode...

What I meant is that someone who has a special gift in music (which IMO is needed to achieve something like this) woudn't think about grades or projects. They do what they do because they have to/it feels natural and they don't necessarily even think about it as "practicing". For them the piano is a means for bringing out the music they have inside, not a physical skill. And usually quite soon it expands from the "playing to piano" level to creating, improvising, analysing, composing and interest to other instruments.

It's a bit different for children who are generally still immature, but we are talking about late beginners here.

[mjames]

ohtru

[outin]

And it seems that even for us not so gifted people music can sometimes take over reason Late again from work because I couldn't stop thinking on how to play that that 3 measure line...

[where_july]

I understand your desire to defend your friend... but please consider our side as well.

Hi dcstudio,

he is not my friend ) I do not even know him. Not a word exhanged between) and... I fully consider "your side" as well. I agree with every single word you wrote in your latter message. All you tell is felt like that.

But it is a "student corner" so, as a participant, I would like to see here the constructive encouragement rather than guessing the potential drawbacks of OP approach. Under "constructive" I mean strightforward "go get the accurate info from OP's blog, see his playing progress up to date etc. then give the reasoned feedback on what was right, wrong, success, fail to the date".

Hi outin, hello mjames,

first I can see and share your reasoning as a traditionalistic approach. And to my view your opinion is quite a valuable one in many your posts I have read here, useful, I believe, to many here. What I suggest is just objectively look at the actual results of OP practice. And then advise, oppose, etc.

Since other beginners may be tempted to try something similar I think it's only fair to make it clear that this is a somewhat impossible mission. Not impossible as never to be done but impossible in the statistical sense.

outin, I would not devalue the OP's attempt (and already excerted actual efforts) with a goal to play 3 ABSRM exam list pieces, requred scales and arpeggios, sightreading (he is practicing all this accordin to his blog).

I would not be the one to tell the aspiring misicians attending this forums not to believe in this endeavour and leave the show.

I wold be interested to watch the OP continuing progress, ask for the methods helping him to learn in such is rapid manner (he is playing the entertainer after 2 months of practice quite nicely), hear the valuable comments from the much more experienced fellows here.

But... I am not that experienced. You guys are (frankly and seriously). So I am provoking you to  constructively commenting the OP process & progress ))

I believe, with clear plan, ability to work truly 40 hours a week, various learning techniques and a devoted (and progressive, well informed) teacher watching the pupil every week I would say passing at least big part of ABSRM grade 8 exam in a year is possible (pieces, scales, sightreading).

It in itself a huge breakthrough. For me. To learn from.

yes i think OP doesnt understand what it means to be grade 8. I was like that too. I thought it was just about playing pieces and thats it
...
If playing piano was that easy, then wed all be virtousos. Man I was so naive...

Ok, I will guess too here. What if he is successful in passing major part of grade 8 exam? Not because of being naive but because of realistically estimated and applied efforts? What would I say here then? What woud you, mjames, say here then? Would it re-open the possibility to be a virtuoso for him? For you? For me? Or be a (much?) better player than we are now?

These are quite interesting questions for me because I dream of playing piano, composing, imporvising, playing 3 other instruments too and singing. Seriously. See, getting weird too ))

4.5 hours is tops for me as exactly excercise at keyboard. On average it is 3-3.5 hours for past 5 months. + an ~1 hour for Tonal harmony.

---

So with all my enthusiasm I must act as I preach )) thus I will ask OP the questions I have so far.

Peace to all)
V.

[dcstudio]

To be honest, I think that if someone really does have the exceptional qualities needed to accomplish something like that, they would be glued to the piano and immersed in music, not writing blogs or hanging out here...not that there's anything wrong with either

this seems to be more about him proving something. he has no idea what he has signed up for which is why he can make these claims so confidently. It is going to take that level of commitment and a pretty high IQ to even have a shot.  

[where_july]

Hello Thomas,

I am very interested in your endeavour and I have several questions to you.

1. What do you mean by get to Grade 8 - what parts of the exam are you preparing to be able pass? (https://us.abrsm.org/en/our-exams/piano/piano-grade-8/)

Or other particular measurable result you have planned?

2. Do you spend all 8 hours/day only at piano?

3. What is the rough % distribution of your 2 months 300 hours to date practice among: piano (total, scales, pieces, other?), musical theory, solfeggio, sightreading, else?

4. What specific practice techniques you use if any (like small chunks, conjunctions, parallel play, 7x20, various types of memorizing, and the like)?

5. Can you name authors of the method(s) you use for us to know and to refer to? (e.g. Fink, Whiteside, Chang, Bernhard from here).

6. How long is everyday piano practice session? Is the daily piano practice time divided among several slots?

7. What methods you use to withstand the wrist tirednss? Pinky and thumb overstretch? What is your max playable interval between 1-5 fingers LH and RH?

8. Do you face the obstacle of daily mental tiredness in the middle of a session? If yes how do you overcome it?

Thanks for the answers.

Regrds,
V.

[dcstudio]

Hi dcstudio,

 I do not even know him. Not a word exhanged between) and...



 I would like to see here the constructive encouragement rather than guessing the potential drawbacks of OP approach. Under "constructive" I mean strightforward "go get the accurate info from OP's blog, see his playing progress up to date etc. then give the reasoned feedback on what was right, wrong, success, fail to the date".

not a word exchanged doesn't mean diddly squat and you are a brand new account who seems a bit too emotionally invested in this. 

this is about him... he is grandstanding and it's not about the music.  this is not an "approach" to learning-- this is a challenge--and he is out to prove he's right. 

if he were a student whose goals were to spend a lifetime experiencing the joy of the piano I would be nothing but constructive.    He is out to promote himself and his project... nothing wrong with that at all... but that kind of motivation wanes very quickly.  I have been teaching piano for 20+ years and I do have some experience with this.   

why don't you go ahead an encourage him instead of replying to the other posts and complaining we didn't? you are a bit too emotionally invested as I stated earlier

[dcstudio]

Hello Thomas,

I am very interested in your endeavour and I have several questions to you.

1. What do you mean by get to Grade 8 - what parts of the exam are you preparing to be able pass? (https://us.abrsm.org/en/our-exams/piano/piano-grade-8/)

Or other particular measurable result you have planned?

2. Do you spend all 8 hours/day only at piano?

3. What is the rough % distribution of your 2 months 300 hours to date practice among: piano (total, scales, pieces, other?), musical theory, solfeggio, sightreading, else?

4. What specific practice techniques you use if any (like small chunks, conjunctions, parallel play, 7x20, various types of memorizing, and the like)?

5. Can you name authors of the method(s) you use for us to know and to refer to? (e.g. Fink, Whiteside, Chang, Bernhard from here).

6. How long is everyday piano practice session? Is the daily piano practice time divided among several slots?

7. What methods you use to withstand the wrist tirednss? Pinky and thumb overstretch? What is your max playable interval between 1-5 fingers LH and RH?

8. Do you face the obstacle of daily mental tiredness in the middle of a session? If yes how do you overcome it?

Thanks for the answers.

Regrds,
V.

this is supposed to suggest you don't know this guy? you have 12 posts...  

now this is really a bit fishy...  but wow some really, really well thought out questions you asked there... almost as if they were planned ahead of time... such respect you show him and almost admiration... if I were him these are the EXACT questions I would  want someone to ask me..   I am sure he will really enjoy answering them.

[where_july]

not a word exchanged doesn't mean diddly squat and you are a brand new account who seems a bit too emotionally invested in this. 

Hi dcstudio,

I am not a native English speaker so if you could explain your the overall "diddly squat" phrase meaning I would be both thankfull and better informed))

why don't you go ahead an encourage him instead of replying to the other posts and complaining we didn't?

I did) With all my postings here I did.

you are a bit too emotionally invested as I stated earlier

Emotional?) Interested in? Having a desire to know how? Willing to learn? Asking questions? Aren't these a core of "student corner"?

[outin]

I don't know why I feel like evaluating the OP's project further...probably because work is boring and anything related to piano is more fun today  

But here we go:

The reason why I feel the mission is practically impossible is because I assume the OP's goal includes the ability to play several grade 8 pieces to a reasonable performance standard from the viewpoint of someone knowledgeable. And thinking of my own learning process for pieces of the higher grades I just don't see it happening for him in the 10 months he has left, considering that he hasn't really even started learning higher level classical pieces yet.

I don't know if many of my pieces would be "difficult" enough for grade 8, but I am sure many of them would do for grade 7 at least. If I want to learn them to performance standard, it's a long process, outlined below.

I approach the pieces I study with my previous experience of few years of regular lessons and daily practice. It will still take time to go through the new piece and figure out how to physically execute all the notes in an acceptable manner and according to notation. I will experiment, decide on my fingerings and go through the piece in phrases or sections over several days or even weeks, going back and forth as I work my way towards the end. This is somewhat intensive work and I don't like to cram it too much. If I hurry, it will backfire later when a lot of changes need to be made. And my pieces are never more than 5-6 pages long. Then I go through my choices with the teacher and get important feedback over several lessons. It doesn't always work the way I think it does, sound the way it should and it isn't always technically sound (I am prone to using my overly flexible joints to take shortcuts). If I don't have the ability to execute, I will have to redirect myself for a while to learning a new physical skill. So far every piece I have learned has included one or two "impossible" sections that took time to solve. And often in the early years they remained unsolved and could only be solved a year or two later with more general experience.

Also when I get to the end of the piece I will have to make some changes to be consistent in my choices and make sense of the whole thing as a musical entity. Then I need to get all those notes and movements engraved into my system so that it becomes at least somewhat automatic and free brain capacity to other important things. I also need to memorize (for reasons I won't go into now). This is the most difficult part for me and takes time. It almost always requires intervallic work, meaning I leave the piece or section long enough to slightly forget it and then relearn it. The more I do this during several months the better my memory retrieval (which is my weak spot) works. While some people have this part much easier, I'd assume it still takes some time for most and that time depends on the difficulty of the piece one is learning.

At this point I don't consider the piece anywhere near performance quality (which I assume is expected for exams). If I want to make it so, the work changes more into "musical" thinking and some of it is done away from the piano. At this point the music sort of comes to life for me, I start feeling like it's my own. I will hear more and more details where the articulation could be better, dynamics or balance isn't quite what I want, how to build tension and so on. Especially in Baroque music there are infinite amount of options and I need to make the choices between them so that I can convince myself and others.

And this is all just for one piece…

In the beginning it is customary to just learn the pieces to somewhat acceptable level and then go to the next one and so advance quickly through a method book. But at some point one needs to start working the pieces more deeply, REALLY polishing them and bringing something of one's own musical ideas to them. I guess one could pass exams just by playing the right notes at the right time with adding some effects shown by the teacher, but it probably won't be a very uplifting experience to the examiner, nor the player.

So if one is supposed to learn four grade 8 pieces to good level and they are from contrasting periods and require different things technically and musically, can one do this just by sitting at one's piano for 6 hours a day for a year, starting from zero piano skills? Only if some or all of the things mentioned above are exceptionally easy for the said individual and take very little time. Maybe also if one is exceptionally good in learning by imitation instead of personal evaluation (I am not) and gets very thorough instructions from the teacher. Young children can sometimes learn amazingly fast simply by imitating, because they are not confused by too much thinking, but late starters don't usually have that benefit.

Someone mentioned using variable learning techniques. This is an important part of growing as a student and it too takes time. You don't really know what works for YOU until you have trieda few things. And almost always some trials fail, which means spending a little more time without actually getting much closer to the goal.

[dcstudio]

between you and the OP you have less than 20 posts.      I have been here 10 years and I know this forum quite well.  You both are just going to have to hang around a bit longer a post a bit more if you want to be taken seriously.

your boy Thomas is grandstanding-- it's not about the music--maybe in his mind it is but this is about him proving something.  which is just great... but I don't need to treat him like a student because he isn't one..

to the OP:  by grade 8--do you mean you are going to take the exam ?  

[where_july]

this is supposed to suggest you don't know this guy? you have 12 posts...  now this is really a bit fishy...

dcstudio ) I swear on my health (!) I do not know him and this is not the planned promotion action of his blog or project or whatever else))

The reason behind my actions here is twofold:

1) as I got HUGE help from pianostreet's Bernhard's and some other members posts I feel somewhat need to contribute to the forum. Where I feel I can be of use.

2) I am myself generally on the same quest as the OP to play musically a beautiful and serious pieces and achieve it as soon and as efficient as possible. Just because I love the sound of piano, love harmonies progressions etc, etc. I am an aspiring piano player, no teacher, learning quite intensively, practicing a lot, roughly 5 months to date. Reading, studying Bernhard, Chang, Howard Richman, Fink. Now I play HT 4 pieces of grade 3-6 rather well. Another one around grade 6 HS getting up to  130 speed (never been there yet with contrapuntal piece). Looking at several 4 / 5 voices fugues from WTC 1 or 2 and planning to start learning them in a couple of months.

And I am time constrained too, as the OP, as I earn my living with completelly different occupation )) Nothing else)

but wow some really, really well thought out questions you asked there... almost as if they were planned ahead of time... such respect you show him and almost admiration... if I were him these are the EXACT questions I would  want someone to ask me..   I am sure he will really enjoy answering them.

And I myself and other beginners here I hope would enjoy and get some use of his answers too.

These questions are easily popping up to my mind as I go similar route as the OP) my aching wrists ask me everyday, my bored mind after 2 hours learning in a row questions me) my right hand 3rd and 4th finger muscles and tendons in elbow ask me last couple of months, left pinky does the same) So in some meaning these questions are preplanned)) By constant try and error, and success hehe))

[dcstudio]

dcstudio ) I swear on my health (!) I do not know him and this is not the planned promotion action of his blog or project or whatever else))

The reason behind my actions here is twofold:

1) as I got HUGE help from pianostreet's Bernhard's and some other members posts I feel somewhat need to contribute to the forum. Where I feel I can be of use.

2) I am myself generally on the same quest as the OP. I am an aspiring piano player, no teacher, learning quite intensively, practicing a lot, roughly 5 months to date. Reading, studying Bernhard, Chang, Howard Richman, Fink. Now I play HT 4 pieces of grade 3-6 rather well. Another one around grade 6 HS getting up to  130 speed (never been there yet with contrapuntal piece). Looking at several 4 / 5 voices fugues from WTC 1 or 2 and planning to start learning them in a couple of months.

And I am time constrained too, as the OP, as I earn my living with completelly different occupation )) Nothing else)

I am not accusing you -- I'm just letting you know that due to the newness of your account and the OP's account...   your motives will be questioned..  it's not your fault really--blame the 100s of trolls who have come through here for the attitude of the forum.

I think the OP does have a teacher he said..  it would be more than a bit pretentious if were claiming he would teach himself and pass  a grade 8 exam in a year... I think I would probably follow that blog... just to see...lol

[where_july]

I am not accusing you -- I'm just letting you know that due to the newness of your account and the OP's account...   your motives will be questioned..  it's not your fault really--blame the 100s of trolls who have come through here for the attitude of the forum.

No offence taken. All true.

[where_july]

I don't know why I feel like evaluating the OP's project further...probably because work is boring and anything related to piano is more fun today  

But here we go:
...

Now that is the great info here. Outin, really so)) Full of very valuable statements.
I can feel the half of them under my skin) the other half I anticipate an look forward to feel soon or later)

A clear, detailed explanation of performance standards to verify oneself achievements and improvement points along the way to finally performance in public. And the method exlplanation.

Precious.

Thank you, outin)

Reagrds,
V.

[thomascarding]

Hi all,

Wow, this discussion has taken on a bit of a life of its own, I'm happy that what I'm doing is interesting enough to be at least a little controversial :-)

In response to the 8 questions posted by where_July:

1. I aim to actually pass the Grade 8 ABRSM exam by the end of the year. Whether this is possible or not remains to be seen (to be honest, it probably isn't - but I'm not particularly bothered by that). But yes, I aim to actually learn the necessary syllabus, not just learn a couple of Grade 8 standard pieces.

2. I don't spend the whole of my practice sessions at the piano as part of it is spent learning music theory. I will give a better breakdown on the specifics of my practice session on my blog in the next couple of days, but a 7 hour day is roughly spent 2 hours on technique, 2.5 hours learning pieces, 1 hour sight reading, 1 hour theory, 30 mins ear training. This varies day by day however.

3. I pretty much answer this above, though over the past two months I've done more theory than sight reading.

4. I use the Pomodoro technique and spaced repetition.

5. I'm not necessarily following a specific method. I'm using the Alfred adult piano course books for pieces, learning theory through the ABRSM books and have just been working through a load of scales, arpeggios and Hanon exercises given to me by my teacher.

6. An average weekday I try to do 7 hours, leaving a few hours for the weekend. I take regular breaks. Something like a 5 min break every 30 and maybe 20 minutes every couple of hours. I'm not particularly regimented about this though.

7. My teacher and I focused a lot on posture, relaxation and good technique in an effort to avoid things like wrist tiredness. It hasn't been an issue much so far. My max playable interval on each hand would stretch from a C-sharp to an E. I guess this is pretty normal, my hands aren't huge.

8. Absolutely. I often nap for about 30 mins in the afternoon. This definitely helps a lot.

Apologies to the rest of the comments that I haven't replied to, I've been busy practicing the past couple of days so have tried to not spend much time on message boards. I did just see a couple of posts though suggesting that me and where_July know each other and are colluding for some reason. I don't actually see what the point of this would be, if I wanted to promote what I'm doing (which I do) I would just post under my own name (which I am). Also there's a reason that I don't have many posts on this site - I literally only started learning the piano a couple of months ago, there would be no reason for me to have a longstanding account before I'd even begun... Anyway, for the record we don't know each other.

For those suggesting this is a stunt and not about the music, I disagree. To me it's both. Of course you don't need to learn this way - but I thought it would make a fun challenge, and other people might find it interesting/ inspiring. If I don't achieve Grade 8 in a year, it really doesn't bother me - I'll just keep learning. But trying something really ambitious helps to motivate me. If the fact that I'm blogging about it and turning it into a bit of a story is disagreeable to some people, the simple solution is not to read the blog ;-)

Hope this is helpful to people. If you have anything pressing that you want answering there's a contact me page on the blog, emailing me through that is much more likely to get a response as I don't check back here all that often.

Best wishes to all,

Tom

[timothy42b]

We are all defensive because we can't do it. 

We're okay with that because we know nobody can do it.

But if somebody CAN do it, we have to give up some cherished beliefs.

Could you get an electrical engineering degree from MIT in one year, without paying for it?

Scott Young did. https://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/myprojects/mit-challenge-2/

[where_july]

Hi Tom,

thank you for quick answering my questions) Quite informative. Would be very interesting to see your technique development and approaches to musicality & performance tasks at later stages)

Regards,
V

[dcstudio]

We are all defensive because we can't do it. 

speak for yourself...   lol 

I am rooting for the OP and I really hope he can do it actually.  Although I am a traditionally trained pianist, I am also a rebellious jazzer.  In that respect I sure would love to see the classical world get a nice shake up.

but if past patterns of performance are any indicator of future events... than Thom's odds are pretty slim.

[bernadette60614]

Perhaps it is semantics, but I would make a distinction between passing all the levels through Grade 8 in front of an objective panel, and being able to play a grade 8 piece in front of a teacher/friend.

I must say, to my mother, my Beethoven Moonlight sounded very professional.  To my teacher, it was a painful exercise in politeness.

There is hard work, which we all need to do, but there is also musical maturity, which includes sensitivity, tonal control, and "soul".  I don't think those are achieved in a year.

However, I think working towards a grade 8 level piece is a wonderful goal..but it seems more like achieving an amazingly high score at a video game, than becoming a grade 8 level musician.

[timothy42b]

However, I think working towards a grade 8 level piece is a wonderful goal..but it seems more like achieving an amazingly high score at a video game, than becoming a grade 8 level musician.

Do you think maybe most of us accept mediocrity or worse, when if we insisted on higher goals we might achieve them? 

[briansaddleback]

Hi all,

A couple of months ago I started a project to see if it's possible to get to Grade 8 piano (ABRSM) from scratch in just a year. If anyone is interested in checking out my progress, you can find my blog here: www.proficiencyproject.com

Cheers,
Tom

Sincerely, good luck.
I dont really know what all that would really prove.

I just find those who are really passionate about music, or something, will go about learning it the proper way. Taking all the steps. Those who dont just I m suspicious if it really is about music at all or the respect for music, but rather about narcissism.

[timothy42b]

I had a friend who started bowling because a girlfriend was into it, and he became passionate about it.  He bought the DVDs and books, took lessons, practiced his butt off, and got pretty good, but wasn't scoring like the pros.

So he asked one.  The guy told him your technique is good, but it takes 10 years to really learn to read the different oil conditions and adapt to them.  All you need is time and experience.

So..................he joined 10 leagues and did it in one year.  He threw 13 perfect (300) games that year, too. 

[dcstudio]

I had a friend who started bowling because a girlfriend was into it, and he became passionate about it.  He bought the DVDs and books, took lessons, practiced his butt off, and got pretty good, but wasn't scoring like the pros.

So he asked one.  The guy told him your technique is good, but it takes 10 years to really learn to read the different oil conditions and adapt to them.  All you need is time and experience.

So..................he joined 10 leagues and did it in one year.  He threw 13 perfect (300) games that year, too. 

ok so you are not saying bowling and piano are even in the same league (hee hee) right?

13 perfect games?  really?  never heard of such a thing. wow.  I was thrilled when I had a 130 average...

[kuska]

Sorry to hijack the thread but I've seen similar questions are quite popular and it keep me wonder. I'm still not sure how the grades work. Recently I've heard 8 grade is about 10 years of normal studying. It's not that I don't believe it can't be done faster.

However, as I attended about 3 years of secondary school (not full years) which was like almost the half of the secondary and primary + secondary give 12 years of piano playing in total and I have never (in my opinion) achieved grade 8 (I would have to finish my full 3 years or even 4), this is kinda interesting to me. What means to be grade 8?

So far I've seen e.g. The Wild Horseman to be a grade 3 piece which seems silly to me. What means to be a grade 3 piece? To be able to play along the notes? Yeah, then maybe it is. But what about playing it well?

Some people on youtube claim to finish grade 8 but I don't like their playing too much. I mean, it's fair enough, it's nice to listen. But even I can see how their are hiding their lack of technique by excessively using sustain, even in rags. And it just doesn't work with what I considered to be the 8 grade piano playing.

So, what exactly IS grade 8?

PS I'm just not sure if this is not the same what's going on in martial arts (and other areas of mcdonalds, selling people empty words and feeling they are at some level). When I was starting it the quality was very important. When I came back several years later people aready do it much faster but our technique is still much better and it doesn't make sense if a blue belt e.g. is better than a new black.