Some second instrument questions

[irrational]

I have read the other second instrument posts and they don't quite answer my questions, so I decided to start a new one. Not right away perhaps, but a 2-3 years in the future. But research now to familiarise myself with repertoire would be nice.

My reason for looking into one is that I feel a need to learn a melodic instrument. I could sing, but to be honest it doesn't really interest me much. I'd rather learn another instrument.

My first question is whether or not melodic instruments are boring after piano. Besides the instrument itself which may make beautiful sounds, is the music itself enough to keep you interested and practicing over time?

My second is regarding which instrument. Perhaps strangely, I am quite drawn to a Bassoon.
Like most people I love the sound of a Cello as well. I tried one for fun once and I am sure I would be fine at it, having had no problems getting good sound of it (I thought), but I have other issues about it. The Bassoon is an interesting sound to me (the Oboe is just a touch to high a pitch for me to really love it.) But what I read tells me it is quite a hard instrument to learn. I see quite a reasonable repertoire for it too. Anyone have any experience with the instrument? Its technique is surely also so far removed from piano that it will teach a whole lot of new skills.

I have also considered an alto recorder perhaps for its portability. But to be honest I have no idea of its repertoire.

Anyway. Any ideas about bassoon as a second instrument?

[timothy42b]

Bassoon is expensive, bulky, and hard to learn.  We had a beginner start on it in a community band.  (Many community bands take all comers with no audition, and let a complete beginner play with if they aren't too intimidated.)  It took her a year to comfortably play quarter notes at tempo.  Three years later she was still struggling to get sixteenth notes.  And, of course, you are constantly trying to get reeds to work.

Trombone is simple and cheap, but rather difficult to learn tone production and range.  That's my chosen instrument, although I play some others.  Of all the brass that's probably the one I'd recommend.  It's also the one that teaches fine pitch discrimination more than the others.

Saxophone is the hands down easiest of any to learn tone and rapid technique.  The good ones aren't cheap though.  Also I think they are normally taught as transposing instruments (see a C on the staff, call it a C, but a Bb comes out.) 

Everybody should play recorder.  Yamaha makes a plastic alto that is as good as most top line wood ones at a fraction of the cost.  Altos and sopraninos are pitched in F, while sopranos and tenors are in C, so there are fingering choices to make. 

[visitor]

i played low brass, was fun, but the instruments can be costly, my  2ndary isntrument at music school was organ, again, you'll almost certainly not own your own so you'll be limited to venue instrument, and it's super difficult, unless you adore the organ, wouldn't recc it.

if you are drawn to bassoon and that double reed sound, try a melodica, those are cool, and pretty good for pianists to learn quickly
sort of like a clarinet and accordion, bandeon, etc.

[michael_c]

My first question is whether or not melodic instruments are boring after piano.

No. I am first of all a pianist, but I never regretted learning the cello.

Besides the instrument itself which may make beautiful sounds, is the music itself enough to keep you interested and practicing over time?

Yes. The further you get, the more possibilities are open to you. if you play a standard orchestral instrument such as bassoon or cello, you can experience all the wonderfully varied orchestral repertoire from the inside.

My second is regarding which instrument. Perhaps strangely, I am quite drawn to a Bassoon.
Like most people I love the sound of a Cello as well. I tried one for fun once and I am sure I would be fine at it, having had no problems getting good sound of it (I thought), but I have other issues about it. The Bassoon is an interesting sound to me (the Oboe is just a touch to high a pitch for me to really love it.) But what I read tells me it is quite a hard instrument to learn. I see quite a reasonable repertoire for it too. Anyone have any experience with the instrument? Its technique is surely also so far removed from piano that it will teach a whole lot of new skills.

Both bassoon and cello are good choices. They both give you the melodic capabilities and the possibility of true legato that the piano lacks. I think it's a good idea as well to learn a bass instrument, since pianists are often more oriented towards the right-hand/melody part.

I have also considered an alto recorder perhaps for its portability. But to be honest I have no idea of its repertoire.

If you are drawn to renaissance or baroque music, yes. If your tastes are more romantic or modern, you will most likely be frustrated. It's cheap and easy to learn, though, and many who make a start on the recorder go on to play bassoon, oboe or another more "modern" wind instrument.

[irrational]

That is some great information, thanks.
It seems like recorder is a great start, also to see if I can develop the breathing required for a woodwind. Also I know there is a good repertoire for recorder.
I did consider saxophone, but even though I enjoy listening to them, I prefer the woody warm sounds of Oboes and Bassoons.

I realise that bassoon is very hard. But I like that challenge. Perhaps further in the future. At least after I am reasonably proficient with piano. I am aiming to complete my performer's assessment in about 4-5 years and that will take a lot of time dedication. This is purely for my own enjoyment as well. I am guessing that a bassoon is not the best instrument for this and more suited to ensemble music at my amateur level. Of course time is not an issue for me. I'd expect at least 5 years work on an instrument to get to some basic enjoyable music. I am too critical for my own good.

Which of the recorders is another question. I expect I'd want a tenor or even bass recorder for the deeper sound. But soprano or alto are the more common ones right? I assume I can easily enough  transpose music to fit the instrument.

[stevensk]

Violin for me. Sounds better than bassoon, its versatile, can be inexpensive but still sounds good, more portable than a cello (or a piano)

[outin]

Recorders are cheap so it would be something to try. I gave myself a wooden alto recorder as an X-mas present. It's not loaded with great repertoire, but there are many pieces  you can play with it, Baroque or even some modern stuff or arrangements. I find it's nice for improvising, something I cannot do with the piano.

It's not actually as easy as the recorder I played as a kid. It has Baroque fingering and I seem to have some trouble covering all the holes with my fingers properly. So my small hands followed me from the piano...Haven't spend much time with it yet.

Cello is what I actually want to learn...but it will have to wait.

Learning an orchestral instrument might get a little boring, if one does not get opprtunities to actually play in one...

[briansaddleback]

I started learning classical guitar and it is a blast. It is in some respects harder than piano. It is very different in a lot of areas but at the same time, my experience at piano has allowed for me to better troubleshoot technical difficulties on the guitar.

Also, another thing is that it is well-known once you get into guitar, you acquire a syndrome for it, meaning you want to keep buying more guitars. Unlike piano, the guitar is a physically intimate instrument and nice to hold / hug it while playing it. It looks very beautiful and is a sight to behold just laying it around or on a stand or even in its case.

But beware, as like violin I heard or trumpet, guitar can consume you and overtake your time from piano, perhaps replacing it as your main instrument.

I don't think this is the case w bassoon or recorder or any of the other lesser instruments.

[visitor]

I started learning classical guitar and it is a blast. It is in some respects harder than piano. It is very different in a lot of areas but at the same time, my experience at piano has allowed for me to better troubleshoot technical difficulties on the guitar.

Also, another thing is that it is well-known once you get into guitar, you acquire a syndrome for it, meaning you want to keep buying more guitars. Unlike piano, the guitar is a physically intimate instrument and nice to hold / hug it while playing it. It looks very beautiful and is a sight to behold just laying it around or on a stand or even in its case.

But beware, as like violin I heard or trumpet, guitar can consume you and overtake your time from piano, perhaps replacing it as your main instrument.

I don't think this is the case w bassoon or recorder or any of the other lesser instruments.

i can understand the guitar obsession taking over. it's one of the reasons i have not yet decided to pull the trigger on an awesom keytar, i'm afraid , must like Thal and the banjo, that i would just want to shred all the time...
i mean, i could not handle something so rad and so convenient and still get anything else done

[irrational]

As it happens I own a pretty amazing guitar (Well I love its sound).
An Ibanez flamenco guitar from the 1980's that my dad bought because he loved the sound.
It has a rosewood neck with ivory bridge.

I do love guitar and I wouldn't mind learning it properly. I could play a study or two from Sor and Rodrigo if memory serves. Chiefly though I don't relish the calluses on my finger tips. I did not use my nails to play either, preferring the softer sound.

I agree guitars can be very engrossing. I remember being drawn into the different aspects of the strings, finding just the right ones for this guitar. But that said, I am more looking into the woodwinds. It looks like recorder is a great start.

[timothy42b]

Which of the recorders is another question. I expect I'd want a tenor or even bass recorder for the deeper sound. But soprano or alto are the more common ones right? I assume I can easily enough  transpose music to fit the instrument.

The most common advice is start on alto.

Tenor and bass are more expensive, a bit awkward to hold, and very soft.  I think you'd be disappointed.  Finger spread can be an issue too.  I have a tenor but play it rarely and have had some carpal tunnel issues from it. 

Alto or soprano are probably equally good to start on.  But fingering is different for the same note.

The Yamaha YRA 28B alto recorder, the entry level, will run you about $19.99 US.  The upgraded model, YRA 302B, is about $30-$35 or so.  I have both, either is okay to start on but the 300 series is significantly more in tune. 

The sopranino, also in F, comes in the same two versions, the 22B and the 302B, at $6.99 and $15.99.  I have both, and there isn't any detectable difference.  I mostly play the 'nino in performance (because the higher pitch carries so well in a church.) 

The Yamaha maple tenor recorder will run you $700 or so, and the better brands much more.  I've played their plastic tenor and was not thrilled with it. 

[dcstudio]

If you are young and plan to attend university for music and you want a scholarship--the Bassoon would be great.  I don't know--I have never had much luck with wind instruments.  I play guitar, bass, a bit of banjo...in addition to the piano


learning an instrument that's only capable of producing one tone at a time--you will be a phenomenal sight-reader.  You have to have a mouth for it, too though.  Big lips--trumpet  -- tight thin lips--sax.  tiny mouth--Fr. Horn.

in music school they told us to put the really smart kids on Bassoon and Fr Horn

[timothy42b]

learning an instrument that's only capable of producing one tone at a time--you will be a phenomenal sight-reader. 

Not sure there are any instruments like that.

(I met Jen this weekend.  amazing player, and lots more than one tone at a time.)

[1piano4joe]

Hi irrational,

Yes, melodic instruments by themselves would be "boring" after piano but it is so awesome to play in an 50 instrument band. The brass, percussion, woodwinds, trumpets, french horns, piccolos, tuba are all playing together and your right in the middle of it all with this wall of sound. It can be extremely satisfying to be a part of it with an eye on the conductor as well as your score.

And then there is the solitude of the piano.

I was a classically trained clarinetist. In band for 10+ years, dance band and marching band, etc. I learned sax (very easily) after clarinet and the flute which was so different I didn't get very far with it. I dabbled in drums and harmonica as well.

As an experienced woodwind player I can tell you that double reeds instruments are more problematic than single reed instruments. The clarinet has a nice range, a single reed and would enable you to play the more gorgeous sounding tenor sax! A melodic instrument could greatly influence your reading skills.

In High School I started learning guitar and played in a rock band which included lead guitar, rhythm guitar and finger picking. Guitar was my second introduction to chords. I first learned about them on our family Baldwin organ. Eventually, I learned to play the bass part with my left foot, harmony with my left hand, melody with my right hand and controlled the volume with my right foot. This is all done simultaneously reading 3 clefs.  

Always, as far as I can remember though, I wanted a piano.

Today, this is all I play. My other instruments are dust collectors. I love my piano more than any of the other instruments.

I have thought about learning others like the banjo or harp.

I would say a big thumbs up to classical acoustic nylon string guitar. Everybody should own one. Also, I don't get calluses like I do from my Gibson Les Paul Custom. This is a remnant from my Peter Frampton days. I love the sound of the cello. I think that would be a good choice too. There is still a fondness in my heart for the clarinet and recommend that as well.

I hope I have been helpful, Joe.

[indianajo]

I loved the bassoon, as soon as I took it up. 
I had played piano starting age 8 and was already by age 11 getting little gold medals at NPG meets.
but  I heard the bassoon on the Encyclopedia Brittanica film they showed us in the fifth grade.  i recognized it as the instrument in the Hall of the Mountain King and other tracks from the movies. 
The school made me suffer through clarinet for a year age 11, which was bearable just barely. 
But they loaned me the bassoon age 12 and I was playing solos with the rest of the band by the rest of the year. The band director found Schwanda the Bagpiper and pulled it out just for me to have fun with.   I have pretty good pitch, I had sung in the 4th and 5th grade choirs as a soprano.   You need good pitch on the bassoon, you make it, not the instrument.  Wind is easier than the oboe, I don't think I could have played the oboe at that age. Not until the US Army put me on a course of running for the PT test age 18.
But they are very expensive.  School beaters that have been mildly refurbished get all bought up by the guy from downtown Chicago, and go $2500 - $4000 in his shop 25 years ago. Probably more now.  I'm 200 miles from Chicago and he has the school auctions all sewed up.  New ones, I was in the Heckel factory in 1982 and should have bought at $4500 even though I didn't have the money then.  The mark was 4 to the dollar then.  They are about 5 times that now.  And the Miraphone ones like the school bought me in 1961 from E. Germany, I think they are out of business now that the wall has fallen.   

[iansinclair]

All good comments up above here!  In my opinion, at least, a melodic instrument can be boring -- if you are not part of a group (there is an exception coming).  However, if you are part of a group, and the group is at least of middling quality, they can be very rewarding indeed.  Almost any melodic instrument -- in any of the broad classes -- can be use, also, in music from almost any era -- with the exception (sorry) of the saxophones, which just sound wrong in anything earlier than about 1900, and recorders, which just don't have the punch to carry in a modern ensemble -- so one must be a little careful.

Each group has its own character, and each instrument within the group has its own character as well.  Sort of like families!  You mention bassoon particularly, and someone suggested that it is a hard instrument to learn.  Well, yes and no.  Persuading the reed to behave is surely problematic, but that's true of all the double reeds, but the fingering isn't much worse than any other double reed, and the double reeds as a group are only slightly more difficult than the single reeds such as clarinet.  Within the woodwinds, the flute is perhaps the easiest to learn to play up to a point, say for a local band or orchestra, but is also one of the most difficult to learn to play well.

Most brass instruments are also fairly easy to learn to play up to the local band level, with the exception of the french horn, but like flutes deceptively difficult to play at a really high level.  The french horn is a wonderful instrument (I played it as my orchestral instrument) with a tone somewhere between the woodwinds and the brasses -- but it is a treacherous creature, even for those who play it very well indeed; someone mentioned that the trombone is good for learning intonation, but the horn is more difficult -- and none of the brasses is easy.

Much the same comments apply to the strings.  However, there is one real exception: violin.  If you rename it to "fiddle", you suddenly have open to you a huge range of folk music, from eastern European Gypsy and Sephardic music to Appalachian bluegrass.  There is a lot of good -- and fun -- music there.  A really good Appalachian fiddle (try Alison Krauss) or Celtic fiddle is wonderful to listen to -- and play.

Then there are all the other stringed instruments -- guitar, mandolin, banjo, dobro(!) all of which are pleasurable in their own ways.

Going slightly farther afield, one could look at any of the accordion or perhaps concertina type instruments, as well.

I'm not sure that I would recommend the other keyboard instruments, though -- organ, harpsichord, clavichord -- as they are similar enough to a piano to be deceptive, and the requirements of the technique are really quite different, which can be confusing.

[dcstudio]

Not sure there are any instruments like that.

(I met Jen this weekend.  amazing player, and lots more than one tone at a time.)

lol...ok smartass...

my sister has her DMA in low brass from Columbia--she's a bone player, too--I know who Jen Baker is. lol.


alright--harmonics and singing in your horn notwithstanding...  if you can read piano music--you will rip through those single line melodies like nobody's business.  What you will have trouble with is listening to others and blending your sound with theirs...  pianists are notoriously bad listeners because we weren't brought up in an ensemble situation-- most of the time.   Pianists tend to think that as long as they are counting they are with the rest of the group...lol..   yikes...

[briansaddleback]

Appreciate all the positive responses for classical guitar. To me it makes more sweet and romantic music than piano (and more 'sweltering hot' music as well). My innards are more sensitive to the delicacy of (well-played) guitar music.

I just wanted to share this but here is  a pic of my guitar I love it:



Practicing on this has the same feeling of savoring a hot fudge caramel sundae for a couple of hours.
 

[dcstudio]

guitar vs piano
@brian

the guitar is so much more personal -- it fits against your body and you feel the vibrations--on stage it's so freeing--I can walk around and play instead being tethered to the keyboard.. I can connect with the audience when I play the guitar in a way that I am not able to do with the piano.  It's far easier to sing with the guitar--it's possible to devote enough brainpower to both the voice and the instrument so neither suffers.  Not so easy with the piano.
 My husband is a guitarist who plays the piano--and he is fearless when he plays.  The other day he was picking out Leibestraum 3 by ear from hearing me play it.  It was damn close, too.  He has had no piano training whatsoever save for piano classes at university--he majored in jazz studies/arranging.  His technique, however, is rock solid.  

my guitar skills are pretty decent

 

but he plays the piano---way better than I play the guitar....  

it pisses me off sometimes how easy it is for him...   Guitarists are somehow free from the musical neurosis that is so prevalent among pianists.  He never stresses the gig... ever. lol. I have been playing music with him for 26 years and not once have we ever argued about who f__ed up or came in late--he forgets it as soon as the gear is packed.   I used to lay awake at night reliving every sour note while listening to him snore away without a care in the world... big jerk. lol

anyway--since we were talking about secondary instruments and that guitar is so pretty I just thought I would throw that out there.

and brian I would very much like to hear you play the guitar--we should have a string for secondary instrument performances here.  Please post something... Malaguena would be lovely..  maybe one of the Vivaldi lute concertos...  or  please...  Concerto de Aranjuaz 

oh please   I am married to  a die-hard jazzer... and I love classical guitar.

[timothy42b]

What you will have trouble with is listening to others and blending your sound with theirs...  pianists are notoriously bad listeners because we weren't brought up in an ensemble situation-- most of the time.   Pianists tend to think that as long as they are counting they are with the rest of the group...lol..   yikes...

Excellent points, and too often neglected. 

There are some pianists who do put four beats in every measure.  I wish I could convince them to make those four beats all the same length, but it aint gonna happen.

But when you play too much all alone, you can train yourself not to notice if you're not careful.

[briansaddleback]

guitar vs piano
@brian

the guitar is so much more personal -- it fits against your body and you feel the vibrations--on stage it's so freeing--I can walk around and play instead being tethered to the keyboard.. I can connect with the audience when I play the guitar in a way that I am not able to do with the piano.  It's far easier to sing with the guitar--it's possible to devote enough brainpower to both the voice and the instrument so neither suffers.  Not so easy with the piano.
 My husband is a guitarist who plays the piano--and he is fearless when he plays.  The other day he was picking out Leibestraum 3 by ear from hearing me play it.  It was damn close, too.  He has had no piano training whatsoever save for piano classes at university--he majored in jazz studies/arranging.  His technique, however, is rock solid.  

my guitar skills are pretty decent

 

but he plays the piano---way better than I play the guitar....  

it pisses me off sometimes how easy it is for him...   Guitarists are somehow free from the musical neurosis that is so prevalent among pianists.  He never stresses the gig... ever. lol. I have been playing music with him for 26 years and not once have we ever argued about who f__ed up or came in late--he forgets it as soon as the gear is packed.   I used to lay awake at night reliving every sour note while listening to him snore away without a care in the world... big jerk. lol

anyway--since we were talking about secondary instruments and that guitar is so pretty I just thought I would throw that out there.

and brian I would very much like to hear you play the guitar--we should have a string for secondary instrument performances here.  Please post something... Malaguena would be lovely..  maybe one of the Vivaldi lute concertos...  or  please...  Concerto de Aranjuaz 

oh please   I am married to  a die-hard jazzer... and I love classical guitar.

.
I think it is admirable that you are able to play and study two different instruments.

Lol I hear you , dc ,I know you married a guitar player he seems really laid back in the vids I have seen. Yes they are all laid back and relaxed. Not one guitarist I have met (albeit , only steel-string players ) is a square or tensed like a piano student (it may be same for classical guitarist, who knows, it may be the genre not the instrument type)

 Hey, I m sure the guitarists might be saying on their forums that they wished they had the calculating or methodical approach or organization of a pianist, who knows. You get a perspective from both ends and not just a narrow view from one's sole view of 'piano' or 'czerny uselesness' or 'am i better than that student' etc which comes to a piano student's mind if he/she is enclosed in  a little sole room to practice all day. They need to get out more and see the world from different views. I never see guitarists get jealous over each other. (they do for their instruments!) they just jam together and have fun. Piano students love to be the center of attention although facially they say 'dont pay atteniton to me' they are starving of attention let me tell you.

Why am i saying this?
Dont know. I guess because guitar has allowed me to see music and human relationship in different ways so my answers on this forum are different now. You can tell just by responses on this forum whose world is only two things: me and piano.


Would be fun to do secondary instrument performances. Not going to be performaing any pieces for now. Unless you just want to hear scales. lol

[dcstudio]

Excellent points, and too often neglected. 

There are some pianists who do put four beats in every measure.  I wish I could convince them to make those four beats all the same length, but it aint gonna happen.

But when you play too much all alone, you can train yourself not to notice if you're not careful.

"I was counting--I am on the beat--all of YOU are wrong.."  

it's really sad to see it happen..  the classical pianist who can play Liszt no sweat--but can't play a chorus of Autumn Leaves unless everything has been written out.  They know they can play--they also usually have more theory knowledge and understanding than the rest of the band combined--but they suck.   They are the biggest squares ever--they have no ability to think on their feet and they look miserable while they are playing...lol

I was truly blessed--my very first teacher was a working jazz pianist.  He started teaching me chords when I was 4.   Of course, when my mother realized I might have talent---out went the jazzer Mr. Hill--and my next teacher---ironically enough was named Mrs Straight.  She was by the book and would not listen to anything that she had not assigned.   She convinced me that playing by ear was a sin... it was a baby skill that everyone had--like being able to draw stick-figures...  years later I realized that she herself, could not play by ear.

[iansinclair]

I might add to my earlier post -- I too am very fond of guitar, and I still have a really nice -- if very inexpensive -- nylon strung acoustic.  Long ago and far away in a different universe I really enjoyed playing it and singing the folk music which we all sang back then -- if we weren't acid heads, which some of us were -- and we certainly were a laid back bunch!  Gigged all over New England, from busking in subway stations in Boston (not New York -- they weren't friendly) to coffee houses from New Haven to Burlington VT...

And now my grandchildren look at pictures of me from then, and when they stop laughing say "What the... "!

"Those were the days, my friends, we thought they'd never end..."

[briansaddleback]

  Long ago and far away in a different universe I really enjoyed playing it and singing the folk music which we all sang back then --and we certainly were a laid back bunch!  Gigged all over New England, from busking in subway stations in Boston (not New York -- they weren't friendly) to coffee houses from New Haven to Burlington VT...
"Those were the days, my friends, we thought they'd never end..."

I wish I could do this. That would be the life. I am sometimes tired of this office 40+ hour week life.

[dcstudio]

 guitar has allowed me to see music

YES!!!  the  mechanics of playing the guitar forces you to think in a different way--I understand that completely and I feel the same way.   It adds so much to your musicianship when you take your piano skills and utilize them on the guitar.  Your ears get razor sharp because you tune your instrument--pianists can't do jack about the tuning so they ignore it.  This bites them in the arse when they get to ear-training class... I speak from experience...lol

What I noticed right away was that I had no fear of upsetting a dead composer with my playing..
there was no anxiety.  

there are so many advantages to playing both instruments that I cannot begin to list them..  

OP--if you are still here--I vote for guitar as your secondary.   It's far more versatile and it's just FUN to play... You can play anywhere anytime--you can play with a band--and you can carry it around on your back.  

if you are planning on going to music school though---keep in mind that there are not as many people fighting for Bassoon scholarships.   A large percentage of symphonic players began as pianists...

[dcstudio]

"Those were the days, my friends, we thought they'd never end..."

we'd sing and dance forever and a day

I wish I could do this. That would be the life. I am sometimes tired of this office 40+ hour week life.

well have you ever tried performing for a living?   maybe you can and you just don't know it.     being able to play like a monster is preferred but certainly not necessary. Connecting with audience is first and foremost.

[briansaddleback]

we'd sing and dance forever and a day

well have you ever tried performing for a living?   maybe you can and you just don't know it.     being able to play like a monster is preferred but certainly not necessary. Connecting with audience is first and foremost.

Easier said than done. I wish I had your guts.

[indianajo]

It adds so much to your musicianship when you take your piano skills and utilize them on the guitar.  Your ears get razor sharp because you tune your instrument--pianists can't do jack about the tuning so they ignore it.  

When I bought the tuning fork for my $40 PX guitar, I found out the tuner was tuning my five year old piano a quarter tone flat.  Last time I ever called that sleazebag - I've been tuning the piano ever since.  The big difference between piano and guitar, piano takes longer but is more stable than nylon strings.
Guitar is interestingly married to chord structure, which was educational,  but the sound of nylon string is feeble.  I bought a bronze string one but never grew calluses,  Also a real grown up guitar, my fingers are too short to reach a lot of the chords.   I never figured out how to hold the guitar without sitting down, either, which limits group playing opportunities. so back to the plastic keys, with my back to people that are singing or playing with me.I  found two singers to go 2.5 hours with me on piano Saturday, hymns, while we were supposed to be washing dishes for the homeless meal.   I haven't had that cooperative a music group since the church junior choir hit teen years and lost interest 25 years ago. 

[timothy42b]

guitar is a far more social instrument and if I had it to do over again I would probably go that route.

Alas, in my mid 60s, there may not be enough time left.  I can't retire until I've paid off the kids school loans so there isn't enough time.

I do have a guitar and practice tuning it with one of those weird methods.  If anybody is interested I could probably post it.  It does help refine my ears. 

[mjames]

i kinda started learning guitar
but then I was introduced to the piano
and piano then took over my life


I would like to learn the cello though, not now but sometime in the near future. I feel like I'm missing out a lot by only sticking to piano, maybe once I do I'll finally understand what those string players mean by e natural=/= f flat

[keypeg]

Guitar as a melodic instrument in order to get a feel for melody?  Ok, I used to play classical guitar in a self-taught kind of way and did get melodies out of it, but you can't really get a sustained singing tone unless maybe your name is Segovia.  But guitar for getting new perspectives on music from different angles - absolutely.  You get up and close to those vibrating strings with no fancy mechanisms between you and them (as the piano does).

[irrational]

I am indeed still here. I am thoroughly enjoying just the general excitement about music and instruments.
So many great and interesting points.

I am half-convinced to make work of the guitar since I already have one. The nylon strings give it a warmth and timbre that matches my piano's sound well too. Would have been nice to accompany myself. .

I am not a student but in my 40s. So all of this is purely for the love of the instruments' sounds and music. Personal pleasure. I am not a big one for social though. Perhaps why I love the piano so much. A guitar can also be a great personal instrument of course.
I started this thread because I was at a wonderful rendition of the Tchaikovsky concerto coupled with Beethoven't 6th the past weekend and found myself attentively watching and listening to each instrument and thinking about how much I would love to make that sound. I sometimes dream of the physical feel of drawing a note out of a cello. Hearing it, feeling the vibration of the string etc. Very good imagination me. The same feeling goes for the bassoon. I can imagine the feel of a note. Of course never having played one my idea is likely very wrong! I think a french horn is also physically pleasurable to play. The instrument just doesn't appeal to me so much.

The bassoon has just always stood out in its sound along with cellos and oboes. Clarinets are great too, but if not played extremely well, I don't like the sound so much. I now realise the bassoonists and oboists must be extremely good as I have not heard a weird note out of them at all.

I am not a good reader. . My teacher keeps complaining that I play too much by ear and feel and memorise too fast. So my Mozart is terrible! But I do well with later works. Strangely though, I am also good with baroque. My teacher says perhaps because I am very mathematical.
Reading a single hand is pretty easy of course. That's another reason for a melodic instrument. I will be able to play a wide variety purely by reading, where currently its a real shortcoming for piano and something I should work much harder on.

[dcstudio]

found myself attentively watching and listening to each instrument and thinking about how much I would love to make that sound. I sometimes dream of the physical feel of drawing a note out of a cello. Hearing it, feeling the vibration of the string etc. Very good imagination me. The same feeling goes for the bassoon. I can imagine the feel of a note.


Of course never having played one my idea is likely very wrong!

I sense there is a very interesting story here and you think like a pianist so I am intrigued.

I am guessing you took lessons as a kid and you have now returned?  or have you just returned to classical piano lessons because you have been playing a different genre of music?  did you play by ear all your life and now you are learning to read?  did Mom or Dad play? 

tell us your story please.   I am always very interested in why adults return to the piano...or decide to take it up.   was there some kind of traumatic event associated with playing the piano?  I sense an unrequited love for music...and  you attend classical concerts.  On top of that you sound a bit neurotic--which is a telltale sign.  did you at one time want to be a professional pianist?

[irrational]

Hmm. I am happy to share my story. Boring as it may be!
It can be a very long one, but I will start with a simple line.
Everything I have done in my life has by little bits here and there, in different ways, led me to love classical music at many levels.

Lets see.
I did not have music really as a kid. My dad listened to Opera but I can't really remember that. Music in the house wasn't classical really. Pop-ish, but not rock. I never listened to rock or enjoyed pop. I still don't. He bought a guitar because he loved the sound, wanting to learn. I guess he was about 40 that time too! Odd. But he did not seriously do it, so I went for some common chord lessons for a few months before stopping. I was around 11-12. We had a piano in the house but no-one played it. I was very sportive as a child though and the music did not particularly excite me. Books did. It appealed to my imagination. I read a LOT (5-6 books a week) and played just about all sports.

Fast forward to high school and university. I loved Mathematics. The intricacies of it was astounding and how everything fit into each other made me look at other things the same way, trying to find patterns and links. I halted university to complete a compulsory year in the army.

When I returned my interest in art was high. I had always loved to draw and could do it well, in the real way, not the "Mom says I draw well" way. . SO I studied graphic design where the aesthetics appealed to my mathematical and analytical senses. During this period I was asked to teach and money wasn't much. The first job I found was in a CD shop's classical section. I got the job because I was willing to work late weekend nights. My knowledge was very basic. Its this exposure that started a deeper interest in classical music. I could listen to whatever I liked.

Also at the same time I spent a lot of time with a childhood (and still) friend that came from one of those incredibly gifted musical families where everyone can play just about everything with an innate ability to make music. He played piano, mostly made up popular things. His mom was a piano teacher. It was interesting. So when I was teaching design, I decided the piano does not seem so hard if he plays. I know where middle-C is on the treble cleft, so I can figure out the notes from there. I still have copied music form then. Beethoven Op.27/2 with A,B,C etc written under the notes! He was also a classical guitarist and taught me a few studies. I just wanted to do something other than horrible chord strumming. That silly woman from my childhood could maybe have made me more interested in music by teaching properly...

I guess I was very interested in the harmonics, more than melody. I taught myself a lot of Beethoven. I was about 25 at the time. I loved listening to the music but also just enjoying the tactile feel of the hammers striking strings and getting the sound rounded and pretty. I started being pulled in by music. Getting glimpses of that point when the music really grips you and everything else fades away. Akin to when you are engrossed in the imaginary world of a brilliant book.

I met a friend that told me I should do I.T. and it will appeal to me. I was disillusioned by Graphic Design at the time. It was boring. So I studied IT and Math again. This took all my time so I stopped playing music. I also attended my first Piano competition as a spectator. I did not understand, nor know, the music, but I was glued to my seat for 2 weeks, going every day, the whole day. Enjoying the different composers and ways of playing. The final concert was Rachmaninov 3. That memory is still so fresh. It was spectacular.
A little piano on and off for 10 years or so. Just replaying the things from before, remembering less and less as time went on. I messed around now and then on a wrecked old piano I saved from scrapheap. Paid about $100 for it. But after some time I decided I had enough. I needed something professional and serious. I was going to recitals and symphony concerts when I could and learning and discovering more about music, but my own messing around was just annoying me.

At this point I had a great job, extra time ( I don't have a family to look after.) and an interest in classical music that was on fire.
I decided to buy a good piano and start proper lessons. My teacher asked me if will drop piano after a year and I said no, setting aside 10 years to get to a point where can play difficult music to my satisfaction. She started me on grade 3. As I progressed with piano I became more and more interested in music itself. This was 6 years ago. I am playing grade 7 this year and I am painfully aware of how little I know.

Since then that fire has blown into an inferno really. My interest is not flagging and is just expanding, I find music not only intellectually fascinating, but physically and psychologically limitlessly stimulating. The different instruments, the composers, the music all of it is fascinating.
I listen to music from 1650-ish to current and enjoy most of it. I _appreciate_ ALL of it, but love the romantic and baroque piano the most by far.

But there are a few things that surprised me on my journey, looking back.
The influences from odd angles.
My appreciation of pattern started with mathematics, but was honed by art. I think the link from art to music is a big one. I became aware that you miss a lot of things around you. There are wonderful patterns, textures and colours everywhere.
Perhaps one of the oddest things was becoming a go player. It teaches the importance of looking at things as a whole while not ignoring the small. The importance of give and take and layers of patterns. Its a psychological shift that helps me appreciate many things on many levels, including music, musicians and composers!

I also like sensory things. Smell, sound, touch. I think its another thing that just goes by. Running the tips of your incredibly sensitive fingers over textures. Savoring the textures is satisfying to my brain. Its like closing your eyes and feeling sunlight on your skin.
When I play my pianos (2 uprights) the difference in elephant bone to ivory already makes my touch different, lingering more on the ivory. The different actions are clear to my fingers. I can imagine I feel the whole mechanism when I press the key. Makes some music so hard when I can't get the absolute exact sound from the piano that I want. I think this same sensory pleasure is to be had from a cello and likely to a different degree, the woodwinds.

So now take all of this together and I have a love of music and sound that sometimes feels like it will burst out and needs sharing to the world. Ok maybe a bit much, but there is an excitement that's hard to contain. Music is a complete sensory experience. Beethoven can make me cry. 8P. And I sense this excitement and love of music in many posts here, which always puts a smile on my face.

So yeah. Over years I guess I have developed a love of music and what makes it. One that I wouldn't have had while young and one that often make me regret that I don't have the innate musicality or skill of a genius musician. Not knowing musicians around here to share that excitement with is somewhat deflating, but does not detract from the need to play more.

I will happily try to play all the instruments listed. But even 40 more years may not be enough to get piano perfect! The 2nd instrument? Well I feel a need for a different kind of feel than the piano. Just now and then.
There is a lot of rambling that can happen here so I'll stop. 8P

[irrational]

A professional musician, no.
I am afraid I am selfish where my music its concerned. Its for my own pleasure!
But that said, I enjoy it when others listen and love the music.
Share I will be happy to do, but performing is not my nature.

[keypeg]

Irrational (love that name - aren't irrational numbers the ones with infinite possibilities?), I am an adult student.  I play a number of instruments, though not necessarily well.  I self-taught recorder, singing (don't most of us in some way), mouth harmonic, classical guitar, piano.  Much later I had my first formal lessons as a violin student.  That stopped for certain reasons, I got a piano again after decades and am working hard to undo / redo the botched technique I created while self-taught.

For me each instrument gives a different side of music, and this goes beyond things like melody on a wind instrument, or harmony on piano and guitar (chords).  The perspective from each instrument also seems to carry over to the other.  One important thing is to play the piano like a pianist, the guitar like a guitarist, because one can fall into the trap of trying to play piano with your guitarist mind and vice versa.  There is both at transfer across instruments, and a difference in the uniqueness of each.

When I play a wind instrument, my feel for a cadence might be in the "Ti Do" and the phrasing.  On piano I become sensitive to the V7-I chord.

Phrasing on wind and voice is governed in part by how much breath you have, and in singing the words themselves will suggest phrasing.  In violin where you run a bow up and down the strings, and the length of that bow is not infinite, you must make sure not to "run out of bow" (in piano you try not to "run out of fingers ).

On a piano, there is one location for each pitch (I won't write "note" since B# and C are the same piano key and pitch but different "notes"), and that "note" can be played with any finger.  On violin there are several specific locations for that pitch, which likewise can be played with any finger.  But if you play A4 on the thinner open A string, or play the same note on the thicker fingered D string, you will get a different quality - like a male tenor or a female alto singing the same note. On brass instrument I understand you have to be aware of the harmonic series, and preheard the sound because you can't feel your way into it with your fingers.  On recorder you must always use the same finger grouping - sometimes with a choice.

For wind instruments and bowed string instruments you can modulate a continuous sound, making it become louder or softer or change its texture.  This may make you wonder what you can do on piano, and maybe experiment more.  Once a note is struck, it continues on its own, but what can you do by how it's struck, how you hold the note down, and how to use the pedal?  

Well, that's a bit of how I've experienced it.

[timothy42b]

When I play a wind instrument, my feel for a cadence might be in the "Ti Do" and the phrasing.  

Except call it Ti Doh.

[keypeg]

Except call it Ti Doh.

I have never seen it spelled that way.  Are you sure?
Actually I just did a google search, and the only spelling I could see anywhere was "Do".

[keypeg]

One thing I wondered about when reading this thread was the advice by more than one person to get an alto recorder specifically.  The alto recorder is tuned to F.  That is, when you use the fingering that gives you C on the descant (that most kids start with) or the tenor, you end up with F.  I have two kinds of music for the alto.  In some of it, the alto recorder is treated like a transposing instrument so that if in concert pitch the music is in F major, it is written in C major.  I other music, if in concert pitch the music is in F major, it is written in F major.  That already is hard, because you need to use two systems, while most transposing instruments are treated like transposing instruments.  You learn one fingering for the notation regardless of which you play.

Recorders are easier to play technically than a lot of instruments, which is why little kids routinely start with the recorder in some countries.  But their range is limited - I can get two octaves minus one note out of mine.  You can't produce dynamics, because as soon as you try to get louder or softer, the pitch changes, and if you go too far you get either a squeak or a lost sound.

I can see some reasons FOR favouring the alto.  The descant is too shrill, and for the tenor, the holes are harder to cover because everything is further apart and bigger.  (I have a very basic tenor recorder bought at a church basement sale - it was a cheap plastic affair used in some school).  I've always been curious about the big bass recorder.

[timothy42b]

I have never seen it spelled that way.  Are you sure?
Actually I just did a google search, and the only spelling I could see anywhere was "Do".

No, don't spell it Doh, but call it Doh if you're a brass player.

Let me explain. 

You're in Canada and I think have lived overseas as well?  So I don't know how you pronounce things.

But the average American will pronounce do as Doh-ooww.  The doh part is fine, it keeps your throat open for good tone production on a brass instrument, but at the end of the syllable you close your throat and tighten your lips. 

Same for re.  The average American will pronounce it Ray-EE.  But where I live it is more like Rah-EE.  So we say or sing reh. 

Mouth shape on brass tends to change as we ascend in range, and one way we accomplish that is by being careful with the vowel sound.

[timothy42b]

Recorders are easier to play technically than a lot of instruments, which is why little kids routinely start with the recorder in some countries.  But their range is limited - I can get two octaves minus one note out of mine.  You can't produce dynamics, because as soon as you try to get louder or softer, the pitch changes, and if you go too far you get either a squeak or a lost sound.

Yes.  And you hardly ever see an adult develop any technical facility, unless they are also a flute player, which is kind of cheating.

I don't like that transposition idea.  I play concert pitch, and if the instruments finger the same note differently I have to live with it.  But you're right, it is a problem.  Maybe best to settle on soprano (descant) recorder at first. 

I play the full two octaves and part way into the third on all my recorders except the garklein.  That one has much less than two octaves, and some really weird intonation.  I have yet to play it in public, I usually reach for the sopranino. 

[briansaddleback]

Well done!  I am not learning folk or fingerstyle but it sure was cool to see. When was that video taken , in the 60s?? Just kidding , video texture is intended to look like that I guess.

I was expecting you to announce emphatically that this piece was some sort of "THIRD MOVEMENT" with your three fingers up.  Unfortunately you did not.
I was disappointed.

[keypeg]

One thought for anyone considering both guitar and piano (assuming guitar played with the fingers rather than strummed with a pick) - how do you reconcile the need for long fingernails for the one, and short fingernails for the other?   

[dcstudio]

One thought for anyone considering both guitar and piano (assuming guitar played with the fingers rather than strummed with a pick) - how do you reconcile the need for long fingernails for the one, and short fingernails for the other?   

your fingernails don't have to really be that long to  play classical guitar and I play a steel string so it's not an issue for me.   I knew a guy at UNT who played both and he would make finger picks out of ping pong balls he had cut up somehow.  He glued them on with super glue and played his guitar juries--then ripped them off and played the piano juries.  His teacher gave him 5pts bonus for his inventiveness. The next semester he made them for all the classical guitar guys because they sounded better than fingernails.

where there's a will there's a way.

[iansinclair]

One thought for anyone considering both guitar and piano (assuming guitar played with the fingers rather than strummed with a pick) - how do you reconcile the need for long fingernails for the one, and short fingernails for the other?   

I played a nylon acoustic guitar -- folk songs (see above -- dcstudio delighted me by getting the next line of the song) -- didn't have long fingernails (did have really long hair!) at all.  My style was mostly Appalachian finger picking (some of my own stuff, some gospel, a lot of covers...), and I didn't have any problems (except, now and then, I got carried away and would actually draw blood on the side of my thumb... the audiences never noticed)(try Greenback Dollar when you are really into it...).

To someone's comment -- Brian's? -- busking and gigging was good.  Very good.  Didn't get rich, but did manage to eat and stay looking pretty decent, and usually found a place to sleep.  And loved it while it lasted.

[irrational]

Irrational (love that name - aren't irrational numbers the ones with infinite possibilities?)

Yes! Rational "Ratio" numbers can be expressed as a/b. In decimal expansion they are finite (3/2 = 1.5) or repeated ( 10/3 = 1.33333333....). Irrational numbers are infinite in decimal expansion without pattern repetition. The most common example is Pi (Which is also transcendental). But the square root of a prime number is always irrational too.

Anyway. Thanks for the wonderful information! Very interesting and informative.

[irrational]

Appreciate all the positive responses for classical guitar. To me it makes more sweet and romantic music than piano (and more 'sweltering hot' music as well). My innards are more sensitive to the delicacy of (well-played) guitar music.

I just wanted to share this but here is  a pic of my guitar I love it:

 

You made me want to post a photo of mine. a 1982 Ibanez GAF50.

[dcstudio]

-- dcstudio delighted me by getting the next line of the song) --

those were the days my friend
we thought they'd never end
we'd sing and dance forever and a day
we lived the life we choose
we'd fight and never loose
for we were young and sure to have our way

la la la la

always loved that song...  so many parties I have played where everyone stood around the piano, shnockered out of their minds singing that..    when I play it I usually start off with Dark Eyes--which I sing in Russian--or what passes for Russian in my head--and then I go into "those were the days"   good times

[indianajo]

your fingernails don't have to really be that long to  play classical guitar and I play a steel string so it's not an issue for me.   I knew a guy at UNT who played both and he would make finger picks out of ping pong balls he had cut up somehow.  He glued them on with super glue and played his guitar juries--then ripped them off and played the piano juries.  His teacher gave him 5pts bonus for his inventiveness. The next semester he made them for all the classical guitar guys because they sounded better than fingernails.

That is interesting.  I have flimsy fingernails and can't fingerpick guitar without shredding them.  Not a problem for 99.9999% of all European and African guitar players. So this never gets discussed.   I can't open pocketknives without a dime, either.  Another reason I went back to piano after 3 years of fooling with guitar for the junior choir.  So there is an alternative to PVC banjo picks that fit around the finger! What things you can learn on pianostreet.  

[dcstudio]

 

Well done!  I am not learning folk or fingerstyle but it sure was cool to see. When was that video taken , in the 60s?? Just kidding , video texture is intended to look like that I guess.

I was expecting you to announce emphatically that this piece was some sort of "THIRD MOVEMENT" with your three fingers up.  Unfortunately you did not.
I was disappointed.

that vid is about 10 years old -- not quite the 60's--but an old camcorder I think

wow you like my MS 3 vid?  I get so much flack for playing that on the keyboard and also because it is pretty sloppy--but I like that vid, too. Thanks