Learning to improvise in classical music style.

[marijn1999]

Hi guys,

I am sixteen years and have played the piano since my fifth, but only became serious about it when I was around eight. Now, after I've become acquainted with the standard repertoire I would like to learn to improvise. Since I am also studying composition and counterpoint I think it would be a very helpful skill for it.

However, all I can find online is how to learn jazz improvisation, but I want to learn classical improvisation mostly in the styles of Bach, Beethoven and Brahms. Can anyone help me to head off with this? I really don't know where to start.

BW,
Marijn

[visitor]

improv if jazz or classical or pop etc is heavily reliant on  your understanding of theory. You should be more than familar with styles, you should have a firm and solid grasp in harmonization, and conventions/traditions used in the common practice period. You have to really really know these styles, then beyond that really really really know the composers particualr quirks or hallmarks since you'll essentially be 'faking them'.
so your first order of business is to learn how to harmonize or how to build and fill on harmony from a  basic bass + melody skeleton, heck figured bass would be handy, it's what Bach and co would have used to improve and play out.
then it's just do it, a lot, you'll be bad at it at first, keep doing it, play scales, melodic figures, ornamentation etc. once you are comfortable with it while staying in the right style, then you'll be able to start crafting ideas and melodies or even quoting popular songs in that antiquated style. it's tough.

learn what good improv like this is.
ie gabby get its. listen to her a lot, all of her stuff, mimic her at first then start to branch off  on your own as you theory and harmonization chops come in

and as far as mimmicker, Bruce Adolphe is probably the best I know of out there w/ his regular contribution piano puzzler

[marijn1999]

improv if jazz or classical or pop etc is heavily reliant on  your understanding of theory. You should be more than familar with styles, you should have a firm and solid grasp in harmonization, and conventions/traditions used in the common practice period. You have to really really know these styles, then beyond that really really really know the composers particualr quirks or hallmarks since you'll essentially be 'faking them'.
so your first order of business is to learn how to harmonize or how to build and fill on harmony from a  basic bass + melody skeleton, heck figured bass would be handy, it's what Bach and co would have used to improve and play out.
then it's just do it, a lot, you'll be bad at it at first, keep doing it, play scales, melodic figures, ornamentation etc. once you are comfortable with it while staying in the right style, then you'll be able to start crafting ideas and melodies or even quoting popular songs in that antiquated style. it's tough.

learn what good improv like this is.
ie gabby get its. listen to her a lot, all of her stuff, mimic her at first then start to branch off  on your own as you theory and harmonization chops come in

and as far as mimmicker, Bruce Adolphe is probably the best I know of out there w/ his regular contribution piano puzzler

Thanks, that helps a lot already!

Another question then. Do you know where I could learn figured bass, harmonization, etc?

[quantum]

Another question then. Do you know where I could learn figured bass, harmonization, etc?

This book will get you started.  It is meant to be read at the keyboard, doing the exercises as you progress through the text.  If you don't already have a harmony text, you may need one.  This book explains how to apply harmony at the keyboard, not how harmony works. 
https://www.amazon.com/A-New-Approach-Keyboard-Harmony/dp/0393950018


Instruction in improvisation is much more established in the classical organ sphere.  You may wish to look at texts directed at organ (of course you can apply these techniques on piano as well). 

A few examples:

Dupré's Course in two volumes:
https://www.di-arezzo.co.uk/sheet+music/classical+score/instrument+training/sheet+music-for-organ/Marcel+Dupr%C3%A9/Cours+complet+d%27improvisation+%C3%A0+l%27orgue/LEDUC02354.html?utm_source=%252Fdetail_notice.php%253Fno_article%253DLEDUC02354&utm_medium=redirection

https://www.amazon.com/Making-Music-Improvisation-Jan-Overduin/dp/0193860759/ref=mt_other?_encoding=UTF8&me=


There are also some public domain books available:

https://archive.org/details/improvisationont002515mbp

***

As a starter exercise, choose a piece from a style you would like to emulate.  Using that piece as a model go off on tangent, making music in a similar manner. 

Bach can be intimidating to emulate.  For a gentler introduction to baroque styling, examine the keyboard works of Pachelbel. 

How much improvising have you done so far?

[marijn1999]

This book will get you started.  It is meant to be read at the keyboard, doing the exercises as you progress through the text.  If you don't already have a harmony text, you may need one.  This book explains how to apply harmony at the keyboard, not how harmony works. 
https://www.amazon.com/A-New-Approach-Keyboard-Harmony/dp/0393950018


Instruction in improvisation is much more established in the classical organ sphere.  You may wish to look at texts directed at organ (of course you can apply these techniques on piano as well). 

A few examples:

Dupré's Course in two volumes:
https://www.di-arezzo.co.uk/sheet+music/classical+score/instrument+training/sheet+music-for-organ/Marcel+Dupr%C3%A9/Cours+complet+d%27improvisation+%C3%A0+l%27orgue/LEDUC02354.html?utm_source=%252Fdetail_notice.php%253Fno_article%253DLEDUC02354&utm_medium=redirection

https://www.amazon.com/Making-Music-Improvisation-Jan-Overduin/dp/0193860759/ref=mt_other?_encoding=UTF8&me=


There are also some public domain books available:

https://archive.org/details/improvisationont002515mbp

***

As a starter exercise, choose a piece from a style you would like to emulate.  Using that piece as a model go off on tangent, making music in a similar manner. 

Bach can be intimidating to emulate.  For a gentler introduction to baroque styling, examine the keyboard works of Pachelbel. 

How much improvising have you done so far?

Thanks for the links!

I've never improvised very much before, only studied classical music and analyzed it thoroughly before actually learning it.

I tried the exercise yesterday and today but the problem is, nothing happens. I begin playing a piece I already know and then when it is finished I begin doing some stuff but after a few seconds it sounds horrible, makes no harmonic sense and I simply don't know what to do anymore.

[quantum]

I tried the exercise yesterday and today but the problem is, nothing happens. I begin playing a piece I already know and then when it is finished I begin doing some stuff but after a few seconds it sounds horrible, makes no harmonic sense and I simply don't know what to do anymore.

Improvising is not like written composition.  Don't expect a polished realization of the picture you had in your mind.  Don't expect that you will actually like the realization of the mental plan you set out for improvisation once it materializes in your fingers.  However, do expect to explore, to be attentive, to capitalize on "mistakes" that sound good.

You likely need work on developing your creative flow of ideas.  A number of members on PS have written about this.  As someone new to improvisation, you may consider approaching it from a position of complete freedom (no rules, no imposed limitations) and as you gain skill gradually refine to working on modeling specific styles.  It is often with those new to improvisation that their flow of ideas, and not the lack of theoretical knowledge is the cause for a stumbling block. 

Going back to your statement:

I begin doing some stuff but after a few seconds it sounds horrible, makes no harmonic sense [...]

Can you identify what you played that sounded horrible?  Can you try to avoid it in the future?  Can you recall those horrible sounds and intentionally apply them to an improvisation, whether to make a horrible sounding phrase or to add some punctuation to the music?  If you can answer yes to these questions, I would describe your horrible sounding improvisation as a successful session.  Why, because you played something, made observations on what you played, noted how it made you feel, and thought about how to apply it to music if you ever wanted to evoke that same feeling. 

If you can record your improvisations and make some sort of journal of recordings for yourself, it will greatly aid your study of the subject.  You could also share some stuff here on Pianostreet in the Improvisation board.

***

Another exercise:

Take a piece with an easy repetitive pattern.  Say the Prelude from BWV 846 or Waldstein first movement repeated chords, or Moonlight first movement.  Improvise on that pattern.  You might want to change key if your fingers revert to muscle memory and play the actual piece.  Remember to explore parallel major/minor as well as modes. 

If you still feel lost with the pattern try this:  Start with the pattern, change one note and call that the next chord.  Change another note and call that the next chord change.  Continue on and see if you can bring the piece to a natual conclusion.  If you play something that sounds wrong, dont' stop - just go with it and see where you can move from there.

[louispodesta]

Hi guys,

I am sixteen years and have played the piano since my fifth, but only became serious about it when I was around eight. Now, after I've become acquainted with the standard repertoire I would like to learn to improvise. Since I am also studying composition and counterpoint I think it would be a very helpful skill for it.

However, all I can find online is how to learn jazz improvisation, but I want to learn classical improvisation mostly in the styles of Bach, Beethoven and Brahms. Can anyone help me to head off with this? I really don't know where to start.

BW,
Marijn

At the age of thirteen, the late Earl Wild (from Pittsburgh) was offered a gig playing jazz piano at a night club down in Florida, U.S.  The pay was $300 a week, which was a whole lot of money in those days.

He turned down the gig because he wanted to focus his studies on the classical repertoire, and his father never spoke to him again.  A year later, he abandoned his family, and Earl Wild had to go to work writing arrangements, in order to support his mother and his younger brother (Brahms?).

So, when a prior post tells you that improv starts with a solid working knowledge of theory, it means just that.  However, Earl Wild was the one of the very few American pianists who was taught in the European pedagogical tradition.

In the 17th, 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries, every serious musician was required to learn performance from one teacher and composition/theory from another;  because each performer was not only expected to play their own compositions, they were also expected to improvise an introductory summary of what was to come in a particular performance.

The formal term for this is "Preluding."  Jazzers still call it an intro.  Kenneth Hamilton, in his book, "The Golden Age," spends an entire chapter on this subject.  Today, this is a highly discussed topic by musicologists, worldwide.

Finally, as to how you get from here to there, my advice is as follows:

1)  Find an organist, who has a Doctorate in performance, and who is also a composer, with a minimum of 30 years experience.  Believe me, they are out there because every graduate organ performance major in the world is required to learn classical improvisation.

2)  If you can find said instructor, she/he can also school you on the actual mechanics of writing music.  Then, you will be well on your way to achieving your goal.

Most importantly, please, please, please! go at your own pace, and do not set the bar based on what any one else has done before you.  You have to get there in your own way, and in your own time.

Otherwise you will burn yourself out, and all will be lost.

"Musica es amore!"  Music is love, and not some stupid contest.